When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

Sorry,I do not building off a premise.

You need something,somewhere to place the rapture post milineum.
All those sentances you write have failed to do so.

But while you are handy. IS JESUS GOD OR NOT?????

Watch this;
I say "yes he is"

You ,for some strange reason can not.

Perhaps you didn't read my post #3296 a few back where I said this...

I get that God, the Son and the HS are all GOD; i.e., three parts of GOD. All are wholly and separately God.

I don't know what it is about you my dear fellow but you seem incapable (or unwilling) to comprehend basic concepts. My points are lost on you. I write, "the sky is blue" and you think I wrote, "its warm in Houston today." I am really baffled by your complete inability to read and understand the English language or is it just because I wrote it and you refuse to even allow anything I say penetrate your mind??? Sorry friend, I need to give up our dialogue because I am a peaceful guy and don't wish to debate you any further because you spin and twist everything I say into things I never said. Peace my brother.

VCO disagrees with me but at least I think he understands what I am saying. My respect for VCO has grown in recent weeks. At least he is fair and doesn't completely mis-characterize everything I say.

 

[PlainWord]

I can read it just as it is,and jesus indeed brings the saints with him.

rev 19 testifies of who it is with the saints;

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Where is Jesus identified by name in the above??? Sure it could be Jesus and probably is but the text doesn't say it's Jesus so by your argument, it could just as easily be God the Father.

Why am I still discussing things with you???

 

[flob]

God is doing the bringing (of those who sleep in Jesus - meaning those who are saved in Christ.) Okay, so you agree God is coming and bringing in 1 Thes 4?

4:14 sounds like God brings those with Jesus. Meaning Jesus is coming. God brings Jesus.
This is the way the 13 other 2nd Coming verses in Thessalonians read.
1:10; 2:19; 3:13; 4:15, 16, 17; 5:2, 23; 2 Thes 1:7, 10; 2:1, 2, 8.
They are consistent.

Jesus is Jesus, God is God the Father, the HS is the HS. Together they are one but separate equal parts of the one. When the name of just one is invoked, we can assume that particular part of the whole is being discussed. Thus in 1 Thes 4:14, God the Father is coming and bringing saints.

To the contrary of 'separate':
I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.
Your mistake may be to think that invoking the name of One exludes the presence of the Others?
An impossibility.

if God is the one coming and bringing and rapturing in 1 Thes 4, as the text clearly states, there can be no pre-trib timing because the Day of the Lord has always been after the Tribulation/Jacobs Trouble.

Jesus is not only Man, He's also God.
The very next verse, 4:15, '...we who are living, who are left remaining...' implies the pre-trib rapture.
4:17's end-trib rapture is not only of those who are living, but who are also left remaining.

It is "the LORD HIMSELF" - God the Father coming.

The Father comes because the Son comes. Just like the Son's First Coming,
the Father comes in the Son's coming.
'The Lord Himself' in 4:16, just like the word 'Lord' 12 times in these other Thessalonian 2nd Coming verses:
2:19; 3:13; 4:15, 17; 5:2, 23; 2 Thes 1:7, 9; 2:1, 2, 8;
refers to the Son of God, Jesus.




To be continued (re Zechariah 14).....

 

[PlainWord]

4:14 sounds like God brings those with Jesus. Meaning Jesus is coming. God brings Jesus.
This is the way the 13 other 2nd Coming verses in Thessalonians read.
1:10; 2:19; 3:13; 4:15, 16, 17; 5:2, 23; 2 Thes 1:7, 10; 2:1, 2, 8.
They are consistent.

Buzz. Wrong. You don't bring something with somebody, you send. I went to the original text. "God brings those asleep in Jesus." God is returning too. Look back a few posts where I cite at least 5 examples of God returning with Saints.

Buzz, Wrong again. The LORD HIMSELF refers to God. When Paul speaks of Christ, He almost always uses the name, "Jesus" or "Christ" along with the word, "Lord." When Paul uses the word, "Lord" by itself, he is usually referring to the Father. It is God's trumpet. It is God coming and bringing therefore the LORD Himself is God in this passage. Paul is horrible in his use of personal pronouns. It is next to impossible to figure out who he is discussing at times.

Examples of Lord as Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:2
for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Thessalonians 1:7
and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.

Examples of God as Lord:

1 Thessalonians 4:6
that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Sometimes both are found:

1 Thessalonians 3:11

Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Granted, they are both returning. I have yet to find a passage that says they return together but we have several showing them apart but coming together.

 

[PlainWord]

Since Mystery Babylon is the Abomination of the Earth and is the Mother of all False Religions, would this be considered an Abomination in a Holy Place?

 

[PlainWord]

Interesting development in Israel that I hadn't heard of until now. This happened on March 2, 2015.

From Jerusalem Post:

Activists hailed what they labeled as an historic victory on Monday, after the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court issued a ruling ostensibly backing claims that Jews be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount.

Activist Yehudah Glick had brought a law suit against the Israel Police for banning him for two years from visiting the site because of video evidence of him praying there.

Glick, who was seriously wounded in an assassination attempt last year by a Palestinian extremist, was banned from the Temple Mount between 2011 and 2013 after he was seen uttering a Jewish prayer at the site in a Channel 10 broadcast.

The security services prohibit non-Muslims from praying or engaging in other forms of worship on the Temple Mount, claiming that such activity inevitably triggers Palestinian violence.

The Supreme Court has previously upheld the theoretical right for Jews to pray at the site, although it has stated that the security services are permitted to take security considerations into account when deciding whether to allow non-Muslim prayer there.

On Sunday, Judge Malka Aviv said the police ban on Glick visiting the site was issued “without appropriate consideration, was arbitrary, and only out of concern for the consequences of the broadcast.

“There is nothing in the deeds of the plaintiff [Glick] that justified in any way the punishment that he received, not in the ban itself and not in the extended period [of the ban],” she said.

Glick was awarded NIS 500,000 in damages and NIS 150,000 in legal costs by the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court for the ban.

The judge insisted that Jews have a right to pray on the Temple Mount.

“The legal authorization of the defendant [the police] is, in accordance with the ruling, to be concerned for Jews being able to pray on the Temple Mount, and to act in a sweeping way in order to prevent Jews from praying on the Temple Mount,” the judge wrote.

Attorney Aviad Visoly who represented Glick said that Malka had effectively allowed Jews to pray on the Temple Mount.

“The court permitted [Jewish] prayer on the Temple Mount,” he said following the ruling. “Essentially, the court took the ruling of the Supreme Court regarding the right of Jews to pray at the Temple Mount, and implemented it in practice,” he explained.

“Starting from today, all Jews are allowed to pray on the Temple Mount. There is no longer any crime in prayer itself.”


Why is this significant? This is the first time Jews have been allowed to pray on the Temple Mount in 780 years but also because the word "sacrifice" was added by the interpreters in the below text. It is not the sacrifice that is taken away, it is the daily "prayer" that will be taken away. Daniel observed daily prayers, not sacrifices. Thus we do not need a third temple to be built.

Now that it has started, we need to watch for when it is taken away. Once it is taken away, it will be 1,290 days until the Abomination of Desolation is set up per the below:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Once the AoD is set up, the Great Tribulation will begin immediately.

 

[flob]

Zech 14 clearly is talking about the FATHER, is he not?

Zechariah 14 mentions Jehovah, and the one God.
The form of Jehovah, the body of Jehovah, Jehovah embodied is the Son, the Word, of God.
Jehovah returns to earth, to the Mount of Olives to stand there.
Just like He did when He ascended, was 'raptured,' in Acts.
Jehovah is Christ and Christ is Jehovah.
Before Abraham came into being, I Am.
Unless you believe that I Am, you will die in your sins.

The Father stands on the Mount of Olives

In Christ, the Son's standing, yes. Since They're inseparate.

Christ stands on Mount Zion (Rev 14).

Mount Zion in Rev 14 is not on earth. But the Mount Zion in the heavens.
Hebrews 12:22. Christ with His saints comes back to the Mount of Olives.
Zech 14:2-4. Zech 11--13 are particularly on the Son:
Jehovah said to me, Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price that I am priced with by them.
So I took the 30 pieces of silver and threw them to the potter, into the house of Jehovah.
Jehovah...the Angel of Jehovah...I will pour out...the Spirit of grace...they will look
upon Me, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for
an only son...a firstborn son.
They will call on My name and I will answer them; I will say, They are My people, and they will say,
Jehovah is my God.

We are discussing the possibility that Jesus, the Son and God, the Father, are acting separately...
Thus they are both here on earth. God is seen on the Mount of Olives and Christ is seen on Mount Zion. These are two separate places (although they are close together).

To the contrary: They always and only act in relation to One Another. They are two Persons inside One Another.
They are one. The Father comes back in the Son. The Son, in Isaiah 9:6, is called the Eternal Father.

The LORD HIMSELF refers to God. When Paul speaks of Christ, He almost always uses the name, "Jesus" or "Christ" along with the word, "Lord." When Paul uses the word, "Lord" by itself, he is usually referring to the Father.

To the contrary,
the meaning of the word 'Lord' or 'Lord Himself' depends firstly on the immediate context. The Lord Himself, in 1 Thes 4:16, is the Lord in 15 and 17. And in all Thessalonian's 2nd Coming verses, the Lord is the Lord Jesus. There is no phrase 'the Lord God' here.
In any case, the Lord Jesus is God, God is in Jesus, Jesus is God, Father Son and Spirit are all God, They are not 3 separate parts of God. There is an interesting portion in Zechariah I will have to show you, where Jehovah sends Jehovah, it is so wonderful.

I have yet to find a passage that says they return together but we have several showing them apart but coming together.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence: is not 'return together' the same as 'coming together'?
In regard to a 3rd Temple, Matthew and 2 Thes indicate it will be present. For Antichrist to put himself and his idol in it

 

[VCO]

Sorry,I do not building off a premise.

You need something,somewhere to place the rapture post milineum.
All those sentances you write have failed to do so.

But while you are handy. IS JESUS GOD OR NOT?????

Watch this;
I say "yes he is"

You ,for some strange reason can not.

NOW that Is a VERY FAIR QUESTION.

AND I SAY BODLY, YES HE IS, and anyone who says NO, is NOT born again.

GOD the FATHER is GOD.

GOD the SON is GOD.

GOD the HOLY SPIRIT is GOD.

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, the Holy Trinity. NEVER has there ever been another GOD.


Colossians 2:9 (NRSV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

1 John 2:23 (NRSV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] No one who denies the Son has the Father; everyone who confesses the Son has the Father also.

 

[popeye]

Buzz. Wrong. You don't bring something with somebody, you send. I went to the original text. "God brings those asleep in Jesus." God is returning too. Look back a few posts where I cite at least 5 examples of God returning with Saints.

Buzz, Wrong again. The LORD HIMSELF refers to God. When Paul speaks of Christ, He almost always uses the name, "Jesus" or "Christ" along with the word, "Lord." When Paul uses the word, "Lord" by itself, he is usually referring to the Father. It is God's trumpet. It is God coming and bringing therefore the LORD Himself is God in this passage. Paul is horrible in his use of personal pronouns. It is next to impossible to figure out who he is discussing at times.

Examples of Lord as Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:2
for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Thessalonians 1:7
and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.

Examples of God as Lord:

1 Thessalonians 4:6
that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Sometimes both are found:

1 Thessalonians 3:11

Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Granted, they are both returning. I have yet to find a passage that says they return together but we have several showing them apart but coming together.

mat 25 in the 10 virgin parable the father is NOT even in the picture nor is he suppose to be as the groom went to fetch the bride w/o the father in the earthly jewish wedding.

Your whole line of reasoning is the erroneous rev 20 1st res. ,which only refers to a previous event,not placing it at the millineum.
You erroneously build from this shaky point to the present absurdity that you have painted yourself into.

 

[popeye]

Where is Jesus identified by name in the above??? Sure it could be Jesus and probably is but the text doesn't say it's Jesus so by your argument, it could just as easily be God the Father.

Why am I still discussing things with you???

No,it is jesus clear as a bell.

Stop this inventing mess you are mired in

 

[PlainWord]

No,it is jesus clear as a bell.

Stop this inventing mess you are mired in

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

And this is God, clear as a bell.

Stop this inventing mess you are mired in

 

[GaryA]

...before they have to Start to Get READY. That means if they are WRONG, they will have MISSED THE BOAT, because only those who already have the HOLY SPIRIT actually in their HEARTS, will be Called Out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven.

So -- you are saying that:

~ Anyone who is "not ready" ( by your definition ) is not saved, because they "do not have the Holy Spirit in their hearts"...

~ Anyone who is "not ready" ( by your definition ) is "appointed to wrath"...

?

In other words -- whether or not you are saved - whether or not you have the Holy Spirit - whether or not you will be "appointed to wrath" - depends on whether or not you believe in pre-trib rapture...

?

 

[tanach]

This is a very important subject for every Christian to study. One of the main problems is that the term tribulation has been applied to the whole of Daniels seventieth week ie the last seven years. I believe in the Pre Wrath Rapture position. That is that ithe Rapture happens at the point in Revelation where the sixth seal is opened and the Sun becomes dark the Moon is turned to blood and the stars fall from heaven. This is the point when Jesus returns to claim his kingdom, not at Armaggedon. Christians will experience persecution from the Antichrist but will escape the wrath of God. If Matthew 24 /25 is compared to the passages dealing with the first five seals you will find the details Jesus gave for the time of the end match perfectly. Also Joel 2 matches the details of seal six. There are many more verses that tie in with this position.

 

[flob]

By 'return' do you mean He touches down on the Mount of Olives then? Or--------do you mean as part of His return?

 

[cerialis]

Hilarious.

Encore! Encore!

I am pleased that you find it amusing, however it is absolutely correct.

The one feature which distinguishes the Bible from all other venerated books including the Koran, is accurate prophecy.

"For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." (2 Peter 1:21)

Because of the detailed accuracy of previous prophecies, we can determine the accuracy of that which I have mentioned and also those yet to be fulfilled.

Alexander

 

[cerialis]

Hello VCO, I have been Emailed that you have replied to my post; but cannot find it.

Alexander

 

[skylove7]

Let me tell you prophets so called..I have never posted on CC before in this thread. ..but I HAVE u know U that sit around and predict the time for our end of life date is crazy and hopeless. There are some on here I wont say names that swear you know the end time date because u cracked the bible code! Then u bash me my flaws...tellin me I talk too much....Skylove has flaws she talks too much...and I bother a person while they work because I over gab...yet that person thinks they cracked the code and we have a year to live I never will say your name but I feel like if you think u have a date when we die...bible says not even angels in heaven know. Only Jesus knows...and ur predictions had me half fear....I even told my neighbor a man said the end was in a year. I wont tell ur name but ur prediction drove me nuts with fear. And All u could say about me was...skylove talks to much! Well mister Im not going to prepare my child to die in a year...because YOU think u cracked the revelation code. Jesus is hope! You know who you are U made me a manic depressive cuz we are going to die in a year. Then u...***** at me because Im depressed. How dare u promote ur end of the world date. And expect me to take it lightly. Sorry friend I am not going to prepare my daughter to die in a year...because of YOUR date! Im quitting cc....becuz I will never tell ur name...but God knows our end not U. Farewell friend. U hate me now reading this becuz....u know ur wrong to think a date for us. U hate me for running my mouth. But I dont care. My neighbor woke me up and said Sky believe only JESUS knows our end...not men on CC...u know who u are...u hate me for this but I dont care. U are not a prophet. Dog me to my friends all u want. Becuz ur mad. I dont care our friendship is over u are NOT a prophet...scarin me that I only have a year til the apocolypse. Im not warning my child over UR date. Good riddins!

 

[cerialis]

...Once...

The question is when?

Not how many times.

Alexander

 

[cerialis]

Let me tell you prophets so called..I have never posted on CC before in this thread. ..but I HAVE u know U that sit around and predict the time for our end of life date is crazy and hopeless. There are some on here I wont say names that swear you know the end time date because u cracked the bible code! Then u bash me my flaws...tellin me I talk too much....Skylove has flaws she talks too much...and I bother a person while they work because I over gab...yet that person thinks they cracked the code and we have a year to live I never will say your name but I feel like if you think u have a date when we die...bible says not even angels in heaven know. Only Jesus knows...and ur predictions had me half fear....I even told my neighbor a man said the end was in a year. I wont tell ur name but ur prediction drove me nuts with fear. And All u could say about me was...skylove talks to much! Well mister Im not going to prepare my child to die in a year...because YOU think u cracked the revelation code. Jesus is hope! You know who you are U made me a manic depressive cuz we are going to die in a year. Then u...***** at me because Im depressed. How dare u promote ur end of the world date. And expect me to take it lightly. Sorry friend I am not going to prepare my daughter to die in a year...because of YOUR date! Im quitting cc....becuz I will never tell ur name...but God knows our end not U. Farewell friend. U hate me now reading this becuz....u know ur wrong to think a date for us. U hate me for running my mouth. But I dont care. My neighbor woke me up and said Sky believe only JESUS knows our end...not men on CC...u know who u are...u hate me for this but I dont care. U are not a prophet. Dog me to my friends all u want. Becuz ur mad. I dont care our friendship is over u are NOT a prophet...scarin me that I only have a year til the apocolypse. Im not warning my child over UR date. Good riddins!

Actually, even Jesus does not know the day or the hour of the end of this present world order, only Almighty God. (Matthew 24:36)

But we do know the last generation and have now been in it since 1945 after Satan was cast down to the vicinity of the earth, following the thirty years of war in the heavens and World War on the earth. (Revelation 12:7-12)

Alexander

 

[mwc68]

The question is when?

Not how many times.

Alexander

I always thought it was how many times. Scripture speaks of a second coming not 3 comings as these "rapture" people would lead us to believe