POLL: The Deity of Christ
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Yes, language is both the pathway and a barrier.
We must define things by intended definition, rather than our preconceived definitions.
The Father is made known through the Son, as God is made known through His revelation of the Word.
The definitions for God MUST come from His own revelation, as that is how we gain experience of Him.
Intellect is based on experience. Faith is based on revelation.
Our intellect must submit to revelation, or we are displaying lack of Faith.
We must define things by intended definition, rather than our preconceived definitions.
The Father is made known through the Son, as God is made known through His revelation of the Word.
The definitions for God MUST come from His own revelation, as that is how we gain experience of Him.
Intellect is based on experience. Faith is based on revelation.
Our intellect must submit to revelation, or we are displaying lack of Faith.
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Outstanding! Let us then continue.
Things that are incommensurable cannot be measured on the same plain or compared with the same standard of measurement. Any standard of comparison from within our own field of existence will never measure up to the reality of God. We can never truly understand God through anything learned within the framework of human experience. Human reason that is divorced from revelation can add nothing of value to the revealed text and can tell us nothing about God. Through scripture, God allows us to see, in a limited fashion, some things about his nature, his power, his personality, his presence, his wisdom and his involvement in human affairs. Any concept of God that can be regarded as uncompromised must come from God’s own revelation about Himself.
The first thing that we must realize about the nature of God is that we can never sufficiently understand the nature of God. Perhaps the most sobering question which confronts us in this study is not how do we understand the nature of God, but how do we approach the Word of God to understand what God has revealed of himself? For the word of God to have its proper place in connection with the mind of man, it must be given its agential position. We must take everything that God has revealed about himself in scripture and allow the text to superimpose upon our minds a revealed image of his nature. Without the influence of scripture, any concept that one may have of God will always be the sole product of the individual. When one removes one’s self from the inspired text all that remains to fall back on is the uninspired world of human intelligence.
If we are to enter this study in earnest, we must first suspend for the moment everything we feel that we already know about God. Let us not be guilty of bringing anything of our own into this study. Human intelligence, being what it is, has the tendency to insist that scripture agree with long held, deeply rooted, and cherished concepts of God. We must be willing to set aside experiential logic and begin with the word of God allowing scripture to influence and entrain the mind. This means that we may need to change the way we think, the way we speak, the way we read scripture and certainly the way we understand reality. This may challenge many of our ideas about God, which, for some of us, may prove to be very uncomfortable. Nevertheless, the word of God must be allowed to overturn all unrevealed ideologies about the nature of God. Unrevealed ideologies are inherently the product of socialization. As such, it will prove a great hindrance to the development of a biblically constructed theology.
.
Things that are incommensurable cannot be measured on the same plain or compared with the same standard of measurement. Any standard of comparison from within our own field of existence will never measure up to the reality of God. We can never truly understand God through anything learned within the framework of human experience. Human reason that is divorced from revelation can add nothing of value to the revealed text and can tell us nothing about God. Through scripture, God allows us to see, in a limited fashion, some things about his nature, his power, his personality, his presence, his wisdom and his involvement in human affairs. Any concept of God that can be regarded as uncompromised must come from God’s own revelation about Himself.
The first thing that we must realize about the nature of God is that we can never sufficiently understand the nature of God. Perhaps the most sobering question which confronts us in this study is not how do we understand the nature of God, but how do we approach the Word of God to understand what God has revealed of himself? For the word of God to have its proper place in connection with the mind of man, it must be given its agential position. We must take everything that God has revealed about himself in scripture and allow the text to superimpose upon our minds a revealed image of his nature. Without the influence of scripture, any concept that one may have of God will always be the sole product of the individual. When one removes one’s self from the inspired text all that remains to fall back on is the uninspired world of human intelligence.
If we are to enter this study in earnest, we must first suspend for the moment everything we feel that we already know about God. Let us not be guilty of bringing anything of our own into this study. Human intelligence, being what it is, has the tendency to insist that scripture agree with long held, deeply rooted, and cherished concepts of God. We must be willing to set aside experiential logic and begin with the word of God allowing scripture to influence and entrain the mind. This means that we may need to change the way we think, the way we speak, the way we read scripture and certainly the way we understand reality. This may challenge many of our ideas about God, which, for some of us, may prove to be very uncomfortable. Nevertheless, the word of God must be allowed to overturn all unrevealed ideologies about the nature of God. Unrevealed ideologies are inherently the product of socialization. As such, it will prove a great hindrance to the development of a biblically constructed theology.
.
So, there is likely much more to God than even what He has revealed, but these unrevealed things are not something we can discover about Him, until they are revealed (when we see Him face to face).
BUT, we attempt to gain unrevealed knowledge of God, likely out of pride, and end up with a list of fabricated notions about Him which are based on intellect rather than revelation.
Some of the notions are from misunderstanding, and others are from tradition, and still others from the overreaching pride of intellect.
All of these must be set aside. We must attempt to make a blank slate, to then fill it with only what is revealed by God Himself.
BUT, we attempt to gain unrevealed knowledge of God, likely out of pride, and end up with a list of fabricated notions about Him which are based on intellect rather than revelation.
Some of the notions are from misunderstanding, and others are from tradition, and still others from the overreaching pride of intellect.
All of these must be set aside. We must attempt to make a blank slate, to then fill it with only what is revealed by God Himself.
Very Good.
The Limited Nature of Revelation
When I speak of revelation, I am speaking of the Bible as the exclusive written representation of the mind of God given to us by the Almighty about himself. What I mean by limited is that God has not revealed everything to us about himself, Deuteronomy 29:29 and 1Corintheans 2:9-10. What he has revealed linguistically is found only within the Bible. Revelation is limited because of the limited capacity of the human mind to comprehend things it cannot envision and because of the inability of human language to explain things of the non-natural world. Revelation about God is very often anthropomorphic. This is because man can only understand that with which he has an experiential frame of reference. In order for God to reveal himself in scripture, he uses human language to present himself to us in terms with which we are all familiar and to which each of us can relate based on our own individual experiences. For example, in his relationship to man God speaks of himself as father, friend, shepherd, master, judge, king, and husband. He speaks of such physical traits as hair, wings, thigh, hand, arm, heart, and bosom. He speaks of character traits such as love, knowledge, wisdom, hate, will, anger, mercy, tenderness, and compassion. We are all familiar with these terms and can relate to them based on our own experiences, but only to a limited degree. We can only understand these terms to the degree that each of us experience them at the personal level. This means that each of us will have developed different levels of understanding about each of these concepts. Regardless of one’s level of understanding of these terms, we can never fully understand them to the degree that they relate to God.
The Struggle of Human Intelligence
In an effort to conceptualize God, man has posed such questions as, where did God come from, how big is God, how long is eternity, or can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it? These and other such questions attempt to understand God within the confines of time and space. Since man draws upon comparisons to understand things in this world, he quite naturally tries to understand God in the same way. In the absence of revelation, he can do nothing else. Man feels that he must be able to qualify and quantify everything in order to understand and categorize it. The mind of the skeptic may find it difficult to accept the reality of something that cannot be proven empirically. In the struggle of the human mind to explain the nature of God, man has insisted upon measuring God through the process of natural comparisons. Since God stands outside of man’s ability to rationalize, it is impossible to conceptualize God in terms of time and space. Since we have nothing in our experience with which to compare God or eternity, these questions can add nothing to our understanding of God. God cannot be confined to time or space nor defined by any human metric. These are parameters of strictly linear measurements and can tell us nothing of the unseen world.
The Limited Nature of Revelation
When I speak of revelation, I am speaking of the Bible as the exclusive written representation of the mind of God given to us by the Almighty about himself. What I mean by limited is that God has not revealed everything to us about himself, Deuteronomy 29:29 and 1Corintheans 2:9-10. What he has revealed linguistically is found only within the Bible. Revelation is limited because of the limited capacity of the human mind to comprehend things it cannot envision and because of the inability of human language to explain things of the non-natural world. Revelation about God is very often anthropomorphic. This is because man can only understand that with which he has an experiential frame of reference. In order for God to reveal himself in scripture, he uses human language to present himself to us in terms with which we are all familiar and to which each of us can relate based on our own individual experiences. For example, in his relationship to man God speaks of himself as father, friend, shepherd, master, judge, king, and husband. He speaks of such physical traits as hair, wings, thigh, hand, arm, heart, and bosom. He speaks of character traits such as love, knowledge, wisdom, hate, will, anger, mercy, tenderness, and compassion. We are all familiar with these terms and can relate to them based on our own experiences, but only to a limited degree. We can only understand these terms to the degree that each of us experience them at the personal level. This means that each of us will have developed different levels of understanding about each of these concepts. Regardless of one’s level of understanding of these terms, we can never fully understand them to the degree that they relate to God.
The Struggle of Human Intelligence
In an effort to conceptualize God, man has posed such questions as, where did God come from, how big is God, how long is eternity, or can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it? These and other such questions attempt to understand God within the confines of time and space. Since man draws upon comparisons to understand things in this world, he quite naturally tries to understand God in the same way. In the absence of revelation, he can do nothing else. Man feels that he must be able to qualify and quantify everything in order to understand and categorize it. The mind of the skeptic may find it difficult to accept the reality of something that cannot be proven empirically. In the struggle of the human mind to explain the nature of God, man has insisted upon measuring God through the process of natural comparisons. Since God stands outside of man’s ability to rationalize, it is impossible to conceptualize God in terms of time and space. Since we have nothing in our experience with which to compare God or eternity, these questions can add nothing to our understanding of God. God cannot be confined to time or space nor defined by any human metric. These are parameters of strictly linear measurements and can tell us nothing of the unseen world.
That is the correct Biblical answer.
". . .and the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh. . ." (Jn 1:1, 13)
in the man, Jesus of Nazareth, God the Son, second of the three divine persons in the one true God.
The Spirit was not on (as with Saul), but in the humanity of Jesus without limit,
as he is within, not on, the born again,
for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Son (Gal 4:6) as well as of the Father (Ro 8:9).
No, the key to all this is the deity of God the Son, Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1;1, 13).
No. . .Jesus Christ is the Word of God because Jesus Christ is the Word who is God, made flesh (Jn 1:1, 13).
Oneness in the Trinity comes from the divine nature of the one Godhead.
". . .and the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh. . ." (Jn 1:1, 13)
in the man, Jesus of Nazareth, God the Son, second of the three divine persons in the one true God.
The Spirit was not on (as with Saul), but in the humanity of Jesus without limit,
as he is within, not on, the born again,
for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Son (Gal 4:6) as well as of the Father (Ro 8:9).
No, the key to all this is the deity of God the Son, Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1;1, 13).
No. . .Jesus Christ is the Word of God because Jesus Christ is the Word who is God, made flesh (Jn 1:1, 13).
Oneness in the Trinity comes from the divine nature of the one Godhead.
S
Jesus prayed, that they(the believers) may be one AS we are one john 17:22 when praying to his father. How can believers be as one? Only in the holy spirit, there is no other way phil2:2. How can believers be in the father and the son? Only through the holy spirit who lives in them. Jesus prayed the believer may be in father and son as they are in each other. It is elementary- if you rely on the holy spirit to lead you into truth, rejected if you do not
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Yes. This was all merely introductory material as is the next segment. After that we will begin looking at triadic function. This will take us in a couple of different directions but it is important to understand the relationship of the created world to the spiritual domain. I had posted this next segment which deals with triadic functionality in part earlier in this thread but you need to read it in the context of the previous segments. This will help to preserve the continuity.
When we try to get our mind wrapped around the concept of a triune God that the scriptures describes as ONE GOD, we typically regard this as a paradox that is beyond the ability of the human mind to grasp or explain, so we simply accept it and move on. Over the past two centuries, four major theological theories have surfaced that have attempted to either explain the unity of one God or to refute or at least minimize the idea of triadic unity altogether. These are Monotheism (which is divided into two camps – Adoptionism and Modalism), Unitarianism, Tritheism, and Trinitarianism. To me, these terms are quite irrelevant. I really do not care what difference or similarities may exist between these four theological theories. I am only concerned with trying to understand how the Word of God represents the triadic unity without regard to any human classifications. If I may, I would like to offer a simple explanation that I believe might help us better grasp the idea of the singularity of the triadic unity.
Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but somehow when we think of God in these terms our minds go into melt down. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.
Scripture reveals God operating in three distinct functions. These three distinct functions involve intelligent design, active cause, and organization. For now, I will only refer to each of these in terms of his respective position within the triadic structure. As we look at triadic functionality, we should not assign identity to any member of the triadic unity. Scripture will do this as we move along. For now, I will simply refer to each member according to his respective functional position within the triad. I use the idea of position simply to show the functional relationship that each appears to have with the others and to define the role that each has within the triadic structure. The First Position will always appear as the one who represents the idea or the planning. It is also the position of command. The Second Position will always be the avenue of communication between the two worlds as well as the causative agent. He will be the one who gives substance to the idea. He takes what is abstract (the idea) and gives it form and substance. The Third Position will always serve as the linking agent. He is the one who brings order to the work of the Second Position. He organizes the work of the Second Position so that it conforms exactly to the idea of the First Position. He shapes a finished product.
These positional functions of each appear to be exclusive. In all of my studies in scripture, I find it quite interesting that I have been unable to find a single textual example where one member of the Triadic Unity is seen operating in the function of another member. For example, we never seem to find the Third Position functioning as the active cause or the Second Position functioning as the linking agent. Each member of the triadic unity always appears to function within the parameters of his exclusive dynamic. (If anyone can show me an example in scripture to the contrary, then I stand corrected). There are places where some of these may appear to overlap but this does not change the basic parameters of positional function.
We attempt to describe God as a being with a spiritual substance that encapsulates three persons. This seems to be the only way we have been able to conceptualize the idea of a triadic ONE. The Hebrew, term in Deuteronomy 6:4 defines a unique ontological quality, not a numeric essence of being. I am not sure if there is a better word to be used here than essence, but this emphasizes my point that the nature of God cannot be understood within the parameters of human language. The use of this term is one of our own creation. This word conveys on one level the idea of material existence suggesting form or shape, but this definition does not seem to be expressed in scripture. At the same time, it defines intrinsic qualities and characteristics that may have nothing to do with form, shape, or substance. It often refers to intrinsic attributes that are abstract. For example, one cannot see love. One can only see the evidence of love when it demonstrated in ones conduct. One cannot see kindness. One can only see the effects of kindness. This is how the word essence should be understood in relation to the nature of God. It is important that we do not equate essence with matter, form, or some type of spiritual equivalent to material substance. Remember, we are attempting to use human language to explain what is unexplainable this side of the eternal dimension. There have been many attempts to create models to help us understand the unity of ‘One’ God. This writer is no different in this regard. However, we must acknowledge the fact that it is impossible to create a definitive model of something we cannot see. How does one reduce God to a diagram on a piece of paper?
Ephesians 1:1-14, demonstrates the function of each member of the triadic unity within the redemptive process. The Father is the source of the idea of human redemption, Ephesians 1:1-6. He is the planner. He chose us. He predestined us. He adopted us and he blessed us, verses three and six. Jesus is the active cause. As such, he makes human redemption a reality. He introduces redemption into the world of man, 7-12. He shed his blood. He forgave us. He bestowed his grace on us. He revealed the mystery of redemption to us. All things are summed up in him and he grants us an inheritance. The Holy Spirit is the linking agent or the organizer. He is the one who brings the redemption process to full measure. He fashions the redeemed into the divine ideal, 13-14. He sealed us as the possession of God and he stands as a seal or down payment of our inheritance. In 1Corinthians 12, the Spirit equips the Church so that she may become the full realization of the idea of God.
When we try to get our mind wrapped around the concept of a triune God that the scriptures describes as ONE GOD, we typically regard this as a paradox that is beyond the ability of the human mind to grasp or explain, so we simply accept it and move on. Over the past two centuries, four major theological theories have surfaced that have attempted to either explain the unity of one God or to refute or at least minimize the idea of triadic unity altogether. These are Monotheism (which is divided into two camps – Adoptionism and Modalism), Unitarianism, Tritheism, and Trinitarianism. To me, these terms are quite irrelevant. I really do not care what difference or similarities may exist between these four theological theories. I am only concerned with trying to understand how the Word of God represents the triadic unity without regard to any human classifications. If I may, I would like to offer a simple explanation that I believe might help us better grasp the idea of the singularity of the triadic unity.
Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but somehow when we think of God in these terms our minds go into melt down. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.
Scripture reveals God operating in three distinct functions. These three distinct functions involve intelligent design, active cause, and organization. For now, I will only refer to each of these in terms of his respective position within the triadic structure. As we look at triadic functionality, we should not assign identity to any member of the triadic unity. Scripture will do this as we move along. For now, I will simply refer to each member according to his respective functional position within the triad. I use the idea of position simply to show the functional relationship that each appears to have with the others and to define the role that each has within the triadic structure. The First Position will always appear as the one who represents the idea or the planning. It is also the position of command. The Second Position will always be the avenue of communication between the two worlds as well as the causative agent. He will be the one who gives substance to the idea. He takes what is abstract (the idea) and gives it form and substance. The Third Position will always serve as the linking agent. He is the one who brings order to the work of the Second Position. He organizes the work of the Second Position so that it conforms exactly to the idea of the First Position. He shapes a finished product.
These positional functions of each appear to be exclusive. In all of my studies in scripture, I find it quite interesting that I have been unable to find a single textual example where one member of the Triadic Unity is seen operating in the function of another member. For example, we never seem to find the Third Position functioning as the active cause or the Second Position functioning as the linking agent. Each member of the triadic unity always appears to function within the parameters of his exclusive dynamic. (If anyone can show me an example in scripture to the contrary, then I stand corrected). There are places where some of these may appear to overlap but this does not change the basic parameters of positional function.
We attempt to describe God as a being with a spiritual substance that encapsulates three persons. This seems to be the only way we have been able to conceptualize the idea of a triadic ONE. The Hebrew, term in Deuteronomy 6:4 defines a unique ontological quality, not a numeric essence of being. I am not sure if there is a better word to be used here than essence, but this emphasizes my point that the nature of God cannot be understood within the parameters of human language. The use of this term is one of our own creation. This word conveys on one level the idea of material existence suggesting form or shape, but this definition does not seem to be expressed in scripture. At the same time, it defines intrinsic qualities and characteristics that may have nothing to do with form, shape, or substance. It often refers to intrinsic attributes that are abstract. For example, one cannot see love. One can only see the evidence of love when it demonstrated in ones conduct. One cannot see kindness. One can only see the effects of kindness. This is how the word essence should be understood in relation to the nature of God. It is important that we do not equate essence with matter, form, or some type of spiritual equivalent to material substance. Remember, we are attempting to use human language to explain what is unexplainable this side of the eternal dimension. There have been many attempts to create models to help us understand the unity of ‘One’ God. This writer is no different in this regard. However, we must acknowledge the fact that it is impossible to create a definitive model of something we cannot see. How does one reduce God to a diagram on a piece of paper?
Ephesians 1:1-14, demonstrates the function of each member of the triadic unity within the redemptive process. The Father is the source of the idea of human redemption, Ephesians 1:1-6. He is the planner. He chose us. He predestined us. He adopted us and he blessed us, verses three and six. Jesus is the active cause. As such, he makes human redemption a reality. He introduces redemption into the world of man, 7-12. He shed his blood. He forgave us. He bestowed his grace on us. He revealed the mystery of redemption to us. All things are summed up in him and he grants us an inheritance. The Holy Spirit is the linking agent or the organizer. He is the one who brings the redemption process to full measure. He fashions the redeemed into the divine ideal, 13-14. He sealed us as the possession of God and he stands as a seal or down payment of our inheritance. In 1Corinthians 12, the Spirit equips the Church so that she may become the full realization of the idea of God.