An Interesting Question

[Rosesrock]

That's scripture's opinion, also, repentance essential to salvation, to forgiveness. You can't serve two masters, can't walk in darkness and walk in the light. God is not mocked. (Not bad, for a blue bug!)

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Great lesson on repentance and restoration

 

[MarcR]

What sins aren't willful?

I think that if your attitude is: Lord, I know I should not be doing this; but I don't yet have the self control to stop.
I want to live for you Lord but something keeps drawing me into it and I dont know how to get past it. Sometimws I walk away other times I give in.


that is far less willful than: This is fun and what does it matter; it's already paid for.

 

[Budman]

Scriptures do not hold the two statements together as they are, and I believe, an oxymoron.

By definition anybody who is born of the spirit 'does' or 'practices' the things of the spirit.
Scripture affirms homosexuality and liers etc are not fruits of the spirit but of the flesh.
Therefore for one to say I trust in Christ as my saviour and yet the fruits thereof are in no manner related to the spirit is essentially someone who is not 'in Christ'. For believers we express the fruits of the spirit not because it is we who does them but God in us who works through us to bring about these fruits of the spirit.
So in the most generous sense the person who is a practicing homosexual and professes Christ, would be only professing Christ as a saviour but not as a Lord. For Christ to be Lord of your life requires submission to his word and authority which is given through the bible. Bible says in 1 Timothy 1:10 that those who practice such sins are not of God, and yes homosexuality is in the negative not the positive.
Conclusion.. He who is a practicing homosexual is displaying the fruits of an unsaved, unregenerate, unchanged, fleshly and depraved heart.

But cannot the same be said for any sin? If salvation is truly of the Lord, then what work on our part must be done? I do agree that Christians should obey God, because they are children of God, but obedience has nothing to do with gaining or keeping salvation.

As the Bible says, there are those who's works shall be burnt up as worthless, but they themselves shall be saved, as if through fire.

If grace is truly grace, meaning if salvation is actually a gift, then our obedience is irrelevant to our redemption.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

[ . . . ] For believers we express the fruits of the spirit not because it is we who does them but God in us who works through us to bring about these fruits of the spirit.

So, once we are producing the "fruit of the spirit" (notice it is singular, not plural) we don't sin anymore? Or are you claiming homosexual behavior is a greater nature of sin than others?

 

[Budman]

No one of those sins is greater than any other. The key is not the sin. The key is what the sinner believes. If we are convicted of our sins, believe that Christ is the sacrifice for our sins and as that sacrifice has paid the price for them, and that He has risen from the dead to bring us eternal life -- if God acknowledges through the gift of the Holy Spirit that we have sincerely, truthfully, and humbly confessed those beliefs to Him -- we are saved, and nothing can keep us from Him.

There are strongholds in everyone's life. Addiction. Adultery. Selfish ambition. Idolatry (with money, things, people, even work being the "idol we worship" each day). No one does not sin. No one is perfect. Only Christ is perfect. That's why He died for us, and rose for us.

Nothing we do can earn heaven or its treasures for us. By faith through grace, what we do has nothing to do with our being bound for heaven and its treasures. Anyone who tells us otherwise does not understand Christ's sacrifice, our responsibility, or the economy of God.

Insightful. Thank-you.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Great lesson on repentance and restoration

Repentance is a most beautiful thing! It's the beginning of understanding God.

 

[atwhatcost]

I was watching one of my favorite preachers on YouTube recently, and he asked a question of his congregation that I found very interesting. I am curious of any opinions on this:


Can a person who trusted Christ as his savior, and is a practicing homosexual, go to heaven?

How about a practicing liar?

Or a practicing gossiper?

Etc.

I never did get "practicing." I was an excellent liar without having to practice. I was an excellent gossip without practicing. Sure, God brought those two sin areas to light so he helped me stop, but, honestly, not sinning was something that truly required practice. Sinning is easy. Not sinning is infinitely harder, even with God's help. It's breaking a habit.

So, I was born again at 15. God had me put away lying at 21. He didn't even call me on gossiping until I was in my late 30s. Would I be headed to hell, if I died before 21 or 30?

He's beginning to call me on something else now. I'd tell you what it is, but it's not a clear picture yet to give it a name. I know I'll have to "practice" not doing that as soon as he gives me some clear idea of what it is. So, since I can't yet label it to "practice" not doing it, if I die before that, do I also go to hell?

IMO, there is this chunk of time between salvation and glorification. It's called sanctification. As long as we're putting in our effort to be sanctified and God is giving us what we need to do that, no, I don't think Christians go to hell simply because they haven't figured out and dealt with all the sin areas they never did have to practice to do well.

 

[Rosesrock]

Repentance is a most beautiful thing! It's the beginning of understanding God.

If we all would prayerfully ask to know him, study and learn, we would know better how to serve him. We learn about spouses, bosses and parents to know how to please or help them, wow if we woukd do that for the Lord....

 

[Budman]

I never did get "practicing." I was an excellent liar without having to practice. I was an excellent gossip without practicing. Sure, God brought those two sin areas to light so he helped me stop, but, honestly, not sinning was something that truly required practice. Sinning is easy. Not sinning is infinitely harder, even with God's help. It's breaking a habit.

So, I was born again at 15. God had me put away lying at 21. He didn't even call me on gossiping until I was in my late 30s. Would I be headed to hell, if I died before 21 or 30?

He's beginning to call me on something else now. I'd tell you what it is, but it's not a clear picture yet to give it a name. I know I'll have to "practice" not doing that as soon as he gives me some clear idea of what it is. So, since I can't yet label it to "practice" not doing it, if I die before that, do I also go to hell?

IMO, there is this chunk of time between salvation and glorification. It's called sanctification. As long as we're putting in our effort to be sanctified and God is giving us what we need to do that, no, I don't think Christians go to hell simply because they haven't figured out and dealt with all the sin areas they never did have to practice to do well.

I think the key word is "effort". If one has accepted Christ, and salvation is truly a gift, and if all sin was forgiven at the cross, there is absolutely nothing we can add to, or take away from, our redemption. It's either all of Christ, or all of us. Jesus will not share the glory of His sacrifice with anyone.

Works have no basis in regard to making it to heaven.

 

[atwhatcost]

Indeed we are, although most of us repent of our sins, while others might not.. it's the ones who rebel and refuse to repent, who won't make it into heaven.

You have to first realize it is a sin, before you repent of it.

I was dumb enough to think lying was okay, just as long as I did it to protect myself. (I used to hitchhike, so specialized in lies I could tell those who picked me up so they'd b too scared to hurt me.) Who needs to repent of protecting themselves?

I was dumb enough to think telling people about the faults and secrets of others would protect the people I told from those others. (Watch out for him. He says he's a man of God but...) Who needs to repent of protecting others?

So, yeah, really, we first have to be called on our sins before we realize they are sins, because one thing sinners are good at is giving excuses to why they sin. God needs to "deliver" us from our excuses first. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

What sins aren't willful?

Trusting God?

Seriously, my most unwillful sin, at times, is not trusting God. I mean to trust him. I want to trust him. I think I'm trusting him, but there are times when I think I'm trusting him because I know, in just this one case, how he'll handle a situation I'm in, and then he doesn't do that, so... poof! I apparently didn't trust him right. I really meant to.

Which, btw, is that sin area I was talking about, but it's not quite clear enough, and that's not all of it, to figure out what to call it and how to break that habit.

 

[Rosesrock]

You have to first realize it is a sin, before you repent of it.

I was dumb enough to think lying was okay, just as long as I did it to protect myself. (I used to hitchhike, so specialized in lies I could tell those who picked me up so they'd b too scared to hurt me.) Who needs to repent of protecting themselves?

I was dumb enough to think telling people about the faults and secrets of others would protect the people I told from those others. (Watch out for him. He says he's a man of God but...) Who needs to repent of protecting others?

So, yeah, really, we first have to be called on our sins before we realize they are sins, because one thing sinners are good at is giving excuses to why they sin. God needs to "deliver" us from our excuses first. lol

Yes that last sentence, sunday i taught my class conquering sin and living a victorious life....we first have to get seriuos about the sin we're conquering. Stop giving excuses,blame shifting, and admit that sin in a very heartfelt and seriuos way

 

[JesusIsAll]

IMO, there is this chunk of time between salvation and glorification. It's called sanctification. As long as we're putting in our effort to be sanctified and God is giving us what we need to do that, no, I don't think Christians go to hell simply because they haven't figured out and dealt with all the sin areas they never did have to practice to do well.

Though sanctification is not well understood, this notion it's solely a process more a Catholic notion. Sanctified actually means to be "set apart" unto God, and this happens at the time of salvation. You are sanctified, already.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.

1 Corinthians 6: 10-11 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD][SIZE=+1]aJgiavzw [/SIZE]Hagiazo (hag-ee-ad'-zo);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 37[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1. to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2. to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
   1. consecrate things to God
   2. dedicate people to God
3. to purify
   1. to cleanse externally
   2. to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
   3. to purify internally by renewing of the soul

 

[atwhatcost]

Scriptures do not hold the two statements together as they are, and I believe, an oxymoron.

By definition anybody who is born of the spirit 'does' or 'practices' the things of the spirit.
Scripture affirms homosexuality and liers etc are not fruits of the spirit but of the flesh.
Therefore for one to say I trust in Christ as my saviour and yet the fruits thereof are in no manner related to the spirit is essentially someone who is not 'in Christ'. For believers we express the fruits of the spirit not because it is we who does them but God in us who works through us to bring about these fruits of the spirit.
So in the most generous sense the person who is a practicing homosexual and professes Christ, would be only professing Christ as a saviour but not as a Lord. For Christ to be Lord of your life requires submission to his word and authority which is given through the bible. Bible says in 1 Timothy 1:10 that those who practice such sins are not of God, and yes homosexuality is in the negative not the positive.
Conclusion.. He who is a practicing homosexual is displaying the fruits of an unsaved, unregenerate, unchanged, fleshly and depraved heart.

And lying? And gossiping? And hating?

You master the obvious conclusion to the obvious sin, but what about the sins that do happen easily and often even as a believer?

This isn't yet-another-debate on homosexuality. It is asking Christians about sins Christians do too.

Did your answer just get harder? Good. It's supposed to.

 

[atwhatcost]

Sin is sin, none of it acceptable. I can even get a sense in scripture adultery is worse, from one standpoint, that it's a parable of unfaithfulness to the Lord in scripture, spoken of by Israel, by false religion, by covetousness of the things of the world, idols. But those who don't repent cannot be saved. It becomes rather academic what the sin is that damns.

I'm not that sure God believes adultery is really worse. I suspect he can let us see how much pain all sin causes him by dwelling on adultery. After all, what hurts more than the one person you trusted enough to marry cheating on you? People get that pain. They feel that pain, even if it didn't happen to them. God has that same pain for that one, but he is showing all sin is like that to him in a way we can take to heart. Every kind of sin is literally cheating on God.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I'm not that sure God believes adultery is really worse. I suspect he can let us see how much pain all sin causes him by dwelling on adultery. After all, what hurts more than the one person you trusted enough to marry cheating on you? People get that pain. They feel that pain, even if it didn't happen to them. God has that same pain for that one, but he is showing all sin is like that to him in a way we can take to heart. Every kind of sin is literally cheating on God.

Yes, all sin is offensive to God. I wasn't speaking for God, rather thinking of Hosea, and how the Lord goes out of His way to teach how adultery, against Him, is a terrible grief to Him. We also have the simile of Christ and His bride, the church, adultery much expounded upon in scripture, as a picture of unfaithfulness to God, betrayal of Him an ultimate sort of sin, let us put it this way.

 

[atwhatcost]

I think the key word is "effort". If one has accepted Christ, and salvation is truly a gift, and if all sin was forgiven at the cross, there is absolutely nothing we can add to, or take away from, our redemption. It's either all of Christ, or all of us. Jesus will not share the glory of His sacrifice with anyone.

Works have no basis in regard to making it to heaven.

Imagine being in first grade and then yanked out of your school to go to Princeton University with a full paid scholarship.

Princeton University is heaven in this analogy. Works is the education required to be able to handle heaven. The scholarship was freely given before we were ready for it. Sure there are some who really can go from first grade to Princeton. Most of us have some work to do to feel fully prepared. Even fully prepared, we're probably going to be overwhelmed, but at least the one who gave us the full-ride is always there to show us what to do next.

It is all on him, but that doesn't mean we need no effort.

 

[crossnote]

I am talking about people who have indeed accepted Christ as their savior. If you really think about it, since we all still willfully sin, are we not all practicing sinners?

They'd be born again and given a new heart, and their desire would be against those sort of things.
If they are struggling, that's one thing, but if they are justifying their practice, then to the latter I'd say they were not born again.

 

[tribesman]

I was watching one of my favorite preachers on YouTube recently, and he asked a question of his congregation that I found very interesting. I am curious of any opinions on this:


Can a person who trusted Christ as his savior, and is a practicing homosexual, go to heaven?

How about a practicing liar?

Or a practicing gossiper?

Etc.

It is written:

[h=3]Rom.1[/h][18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Doesn't sound like a whole lot of saving grace there, does it?

 

[atwhatcost]

Though sanctification is not well understood, this notion it's solely a process more a Catholic notion. Sanctified actually means to be "set apart" unto God, and this happens at the time of salvation. You are sanctified, already.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.

1 Corinthians 6: 10-11 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD][SIZE=+1]aJgiavzw [/SIZE]Hagiazo (hag-ee-ad'-zo);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 37[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1. to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2. to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
   1. consecrate things to God
   2. dedicate people to God
3. to purify
   1. to cleanse externally
   2. to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
   3. to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Sorry. I didn't learn sanctification from the RCC. (Although, now that you shook up old memories, they did talk a lot about it, didn't they? Never did understand what they meant, since the word changed too often the older I got. lol) I learned it from the reformed church. It's the two-way street. God prepares us and we give ourselves to be prepared, just like that first group of God's People who were sanctified -- the Levites. Aaron prayed up, washed up, and dressed up to serve God. God cleaned him on the inside and set him apart.