Pride goes before destruction
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Now we're getting close to come into other topics. Well, whatever way you try to put it, it does still not add up with scripture to say one can get saved then lose it and get unsaved and then get saved again (and again and again...)! Maybe you should think a tad bit closer on terminology and see what comes out of this going in and out of salvation idea. Or what your view on salvation actually is. After all, it seems that your actual view is close to Kenneth's, namely that salvation is not a reality here and now, on earth, for anyone.
K
If you believe salvation is in God's hands alone, then step back think about what you are saying and how you put it forth to others.
Because I have seen you a number of times make forgivable sins and make them unforgivable...................
Once again habitual sin that carries no repentance or no true repentance even though the person may state they repent.
A person who is a believer if they stumble and commit a sin will not forfeit their salvation. Stumble means they commit a sin during their walk and then repent of it and move forward in the light.
The prodigal son and James 5 is speaking of going back to a life of habitual sin again, not just stumbling !!!
While I am not entirely sure about Ken's beliefs on assurance of salvation. He does tend to push those verses that talk about Glorification in relation to salvation alot. I believe one can have an assurance of salvation right now (1 John 5:13).
As for 1 Timothy 5, not sure how you can twist the verses on those believing widows who lived in pleasure and were dead (spiritually) while they were yet alive. That is pretty rock solid to me. They were believers. They lived in pleasures. They were dead while they lived. Why? Because they went back to live in pleasure.
This is the same concept as.... he that shall save his life shall lose it.... and he that shall lose his life for Christ's sake shall save it. I do not see Eternal Security in those types of verses. A believer has to endure in their faith and continue to abide with Christ (According to His Word).
As for 1 Timothy 5, not sure how you can twist the verses on those believing widows who lived in pleasure and were dead (spiritually) while they were yet alive. That is pretty rock solid to me. They were believers. They lived in pleasures. They were dead while they lived. Why? Because they went back to live in pleasure.
This is the same concept as.... he that shall save his life shall lose it.... and he that shall lose his life for Christ's sake shall save it. I do not see Eternal Security in those types of verses. A believer has to endure in their faith and continue to abide with Christ (According to His Word).
I say to people that it is God that does the work in you and it is not ultimately you.
Please do not take offense, but I believe this is based upon your misunderstandng in one verse taught in Scripture. For clearly if a person destroys their temple God will destroy them.
I totally agree with what you written here. But I do not think a believer can say to themselves that they will forever be a slave to their sin, though. That is making an allowance for evil. It is having the wrong attitude about sin that is not Scriptural. The Scriptures say, sin shall not have dominion over you. Yet by what you have said to me so far, it makes it sound like you are saying that this is not the case.
Please do not take offense, but I believe this is based upon your misunderstandng in one verse taught in Scripture. For clearly if a person destroys their temple God will destroy them.
I totally agree with what you written here. But I do not think a believer can say to themselves that they will forever be a slave to their sin, though. That is making an allowance for evil. It is having the wrong attitude about sin that is not Scriptural. The Scriptures say, sin shall not have dominion over you. Yet by what you have said to me so far, it makes it sound like you are saying that this is not the case.
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do you know there are Christians who would love to go to church?
the elderly and infirm who miss it? (wouldn't you like to visit them?
)you think about that. and make some plans to get to church.
while you wait for the weekend, how about a systematic theology?
i haven't read it yet, but i hear Wayne Grudem published a good one--quite comprehensive.
there are others, though, if he's not your cup of tea.
K
You are the one who misunderstands that scripture Jason, for the Lord Jesus is very clear what is forgivable in that scripture and what is not. There is no way to even confuse that scripture, the only thing you can do is twist it to make that which is forgivable unforgivable. If it is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is done, it can be forgiven...........No ifs or buts about it, Jesus is clear ALL SINS except for one of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit !!!
You are not a slave to sin if you stumble here or there, being a slave to sin means you can never give it up once you start doing it. It controls your every walk from here on out, and stumbling and then repenting is not being a slave to it !!!
Yes you were, Brother. God did not forsake you, but rather He allowed you to engage in your free will, all the while knowing you were going to come back home. You were being prepared for His plans for you that seriously involved glorifying His name to others.
I smoked pot almost everyday for seven years, all the while loving God and worshipping Him. Then one day God smacked me but good, and I straightened out. But it was God in is His loving mercy and wisdom that allowed me the experience to engage in that nonsense because it prepared me to be able to relate to folks who have chemical dependencies. See how one man's garbage (mine) is God's treasure.
I smoked pot almost everyday for seven years, all the while loving God and worshipping Him. Then one day God smacked me but good, and I straightened out. But it was God in is His loving mercy and wisdom that allowed me the experience to engage in that nonsense because it prepared me to be able to relate to folks who have chemical dependencies. See how one man's garbage (mine) is God's treasure.
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do you know there are Christians who would love to go to church?
the elderly and infirm who miss it? (wouldn't you like to visit them?)
you think about that. and make some plans to get to church.
while you wait for the weekend, how about a systematic theology?
i haven't read it yet, but i hear Wayne Grudem published a good one--quite comprehensive.
there are others, though, if he's not your cup of tea.
do you know there are Christians who would love to go to church?
the elderly and infirm who miss it? (wouldn't you like to visit them?
)you think about that. and make some plans to get to church.
while you wait for the weekend, how about a systematic theology?
i haven't read it yet, but i hear Wayne Grudem published a good one--quite comprehensive.
there are others, though, if he's not your cup of tea.
K
Your right He did not forsake me, but for that time I turned my back on Him.
This is the area the Holy Spirit is working through me to get acrossed to others, as God will never forsake us, and when we turn our back on Him then we have walked away from that grace He has shown us. If we return to Him then and only then does our souls become saved again unto salvation. James 5:19-20 clearly shows this standard, and I posted a few posts back from the Strong's Greek how the usage of soul is used in this passage. It clearly is saving their soul from eternal death in the lake of fire......For a person can not serve flesh and God both, as this is clearly stated no less then 3 times in the bible !!!
(God: Joshua 24:15........Lord Jesus: Matthew 6:24...........Apostle Paul: Romans 6:16)
Actually, you said that a believer can commit suicide (and stay dead) and be forgiven of it. This is wrong for three major reasons.
#1. Teaching that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved gives them the "green light" that they can kill themselves, whether you want them to do that or not. For all they want to hear is... will they make it to Heaven? You are saying in some cases that is a .... "yes." So they will kill themselves. This is wrong.
#2. God says he will destroy that person who will destroy their own temple. The body is a temple. If a person destroys the body, God will destroy their soul (i.e. erase their existence after the Judgment).
#3. Suicide is self murder; And we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15).
When Jesus says all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, he was talking primarily in reference to the sin of blasphemy. Yes, Jesus also referenced other sins generally. But "all" does not always mean "all" in the Scriptures. So Jesus was not referencing all other sins (as if it was to be read with some kind of odd wooden literalism). His focus was primarily on the topic concerning blasphemy. Jesus also does not say this is the only unforgivable sin. He does not say that.
#1. Teaching that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved gives them the "green light" that they can kill themselves, whether you want them to do that or not. For all they want to hear is... will they make it to Heaven? You are saying in some cases that is a .... "yes." So they will kill themselves. This is wrong.
#2. God says he will destroy that person who will destroy their own temple. The body is a temple. If a person destroys the body, God will destroy their soul (i.e. erase their existence after the Judgment).
#3. Suicide is self murder; And we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15).
When Jesus says all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, he was talking primarily in reference to the sin of blasphemy. Yes, Jesus also referenced other sins generally. But "all" does not always mean "all" in the Scriptures. So Jesus was not referencing all other sins (as if it was to be read with some kind of odd wooden literalism). His focus was primarily on the topic concerning blasphemy. Jesus also does not say this is the only unforgivable sin. He does not say that.
