How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

just-us-2 · May 18, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Thank you for sharing that! Indeed He does work with each person differently as is needed!

Live2Worship · Jun 12, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Anyone can be legalistic about anything - "enlightened Christians" can be legalistic about going to "church" every Sunday or legalistic about closing their eyes when they pray, or legalistic about their perspectives on who is legalistic.

Since when was 'legalism' reserved strictly for a particular group of people adhering to a particular standard?
As far as I'm concerned, in the Bible it says "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin", and so if anyone calls someone out for being 'legalistic' about something they genuinely feel convicted about from the Holy Spirit, then that's a very dangerous position to be in (i.e. stumbling block).

For me it's actually pretty bizarre how someone feeling a desire to honor 'the law' draws immediate criticism and the automatic and default assumption about something written in God's Word (or at least the first half of it) is that it's 'legalistic'. Since when was the Bible only a 'half' Bible?

I think it's good to be legalistic about some things (if by legalism you mean a strong conviction). If Ananias and Saphira were more 'legalistic' about being honest, then they wouldn't have both been struck down by God's anger. If Moses was more 'legalistic' about obeying God, then maybe he would have gotten to see the promised land. If the children of Israel were more 'legalistic' about not committing idolatry, then maybe they wouldn't have wandered around in the desert all those years. If Adam and Eve were more 'legalistic' about not eating from the tree, then they wouldn't have gotten kicked out of the garden of Eden.

Live2Worship · Jun 12, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

I should start a new thread, "How Should Those Who Want to Honor God's Word Treat Those Who Accuse Them of Being "Legalistic"?"

seed_time_harvest · Jun 12, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Live2Worship said:

Anyone can be legalistic about anything - "enlightened Christians" can be legalistic about going to "church" every Sunday or legalistic about closing their eyes when they pray, or legalistic about their perspectives on who is legalistic.

Since when was 'legalism' reserved strictly for a particular group of people adhering to a particular standard?
As far as I'm concerned, in the Bible it says "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin", and so if anyone calls someone out for being 'legalistic' about something they genuinely feel convicted about from the Holy Spirit, then that's a very dangerous position to be in (i.e. stumbling block).

For me it's actually pretty bizarre how someone feeling a desire to honor 'the law' draws immediate criticism and the automatic and default assumption about something written in God's Word (or at least the first half of it) is that it's 'legalistic'. Since when was the Bible only a 'half' Bible?

I think it's good to be legalistic about some things (if by legalism you mean a strong conviction). If Ananias and Saphira were more 'legalistic' about being honest, then they wouldn't have both been struck down by God's anger. If Moses was more 'legalistic' about obeying God, then maybe he would have gotten to see the promised land. If the children of Israel were more 'legalistic' about not committing idolatry, then maybe they wouldn't have wandered around in the desert all those years. If Adam and Eve were more 'legalistic' about not eating from the tree, then they wouldn't have gotten kicked out of the garden of Eden.

The law shines the light on sin and shows us what it is but once you realize you can't fix yourself then we see JESUS and lets move on to this Grace provided.

p_rehbein · Jun 13, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

The same as they SHOULD treat every other person............Love thy neighbor as thyself. It's kinda of a commandment, NOT an option............but, then, some don't believe in being obedient to commandments............soooooo

just-me · Jun 13, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

seed_time_harvest said:

Then, if the church preaches that the law has been made void by the New Covenant in Christ, what are Christians to do to fulfill this scripture using the law to lead the lost to Christ?

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:19

Should we do as Paul did?

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" 1 Corinthians 9:20

But if we have rejected the law because it is wrong, according to falsehood being preached, then we cannot use the law to lead others to Christ because the church is totally ignorant because they have been taught to reject it.

How did Paul worship, and what was his capability?

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" Acts 24:14

By the church rejecting the law the church is rendered incapable of fulfilling the "great commission" instructed by Christ. Not only that, how are we ever to believe the words of Jesus if we reject the law given to Moses?

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" John 5:46-47

Bottom line.
Making the law void (according to false doctrine) causes the church to be ineffective for Christ's sake, and they are actually doing Satan's bidding by rendering themselves incapable of spreading the true gospel. The church that teaches this falsehood is of a fleshly carnal mind, teaching the sheep how to be "lawless." The only thing left for the members to do, who belong to this false church, is to call other people names, be presumptuous with expositions of false accusations, condemning those who esteem the law as beneficial to the Christian. This is the definition of an adulterous harlot.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24

I'm ready to be fought against and to be called a member of the HRM, and someone that desires to be "under the law." This is nothing new to me. If we represent the truth we will be persecuted.

just-me · Jun 13, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

p_rehbein said:

Leviticus 19:11-18 (IT'S THE LAW!)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the Lord.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

BettyAnn · Jun 13, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

In my experiences with those who prefer to be under law I've seen two types: Those who will use the New Testament to validate their own views for the need of that legalism and those who just can't let go of the idea that said legalism isn't needed for salvation IE: catholics or those who just can't rest thinking 'how can it be so easy to be saved by "just" believing?".

I think part of us naturally wants to have some doing in our salvation that goes beyond accepting Jesus and His gift. We want to have control, we want to think that everything takes work. While there is much work, inner and outer, when one is saved we tend to want the easier work. By which I mean it's far easier to light a candle, make a show of their own percieved rightousness, go through a ritual....versus actually learning to bend to God's will.

I do think many people honestly think that some lawkeeping is necessary and they have strong convictions of it. But convictions from the heart are separate from thinking laws will be your salvation. For them I could only listen to their words, show in the Bible and explain with patience the difference between legalism and being saved.

Grandpa · Jun 13, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Live2Worship said:

Galatians 4:21-30
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[SUP]30[/SUP]Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

psalm6819 · Jun 13, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Love them and pray for them

psalm6819 · Jun 13, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Re post 104

God was merciful and got them away from the tree of everlasting life so they would not have to exist eternally in their physical bodies. He didn't throw them out because He was angry, He protected them from further consequences. He still communicated with them. Even spoke with Cain in an audible voice and protected Cain, a murderer.

Sorry off topic

just-me · Jun 13, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

BettyAnn said:

I like what you say. However, there are scores of people who don't know how to define the spiritual aspects of the law because they are taught to reject it. Others cannot begin to comprehend because they are of a carnal mind even though they say they are born of the Spirit. A Spiritual mind will strive to comprehend the spiritual aspects of the law rather than arbitrarily reject it as do many churches teach today. Without this understanding, or at least the intent, there is no way to minister to those who are "under the law" as Paul does, giving himself, and his ministry as an example. In other words, a person is incapable of ministering the Spirit when they actually have a carnal mind.

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:6-7

Live2Worship · Jun 18, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

This is a meaningless discussion...it's completely illogical to argue against 'the law' by basing those arguments on how people observe the law (i.e. legalistically). When God wrote the law, He didn't write it so that it would be observed for the wrong reasons and with the improper motivations. Why blame the content of the law when the problem is with what people DO with it? Using that logic, one could argue that the whole Bible is wrong and Christianity is wrong because people have used it to kill others (e.g. crusades). It wasn't that long ago that white supremacists were using the Bible to reinforce the slavery and inferiority of non-whites and to also argue that inter-racial marriage was sinful. Faulty interpretations and improper readings of any Scripture - including the law - should not render the content itself worthless.

How many people would claim that King David was 'legalistic'? Not that many...yet he himself wrote in Psalm 1 that he meditates on God's law day and night. This is one example of how the law doesn't make someone 'legalistic', it doesn't work that way. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Every religion is legalistic to a certain extent. If it weren't legalistic, then it wouldn't be a religion or a theology.

Eva1218 · Jun 18, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

I would want one to reach out to me in Love. Hear my views and why I believe what I do and by way of HOLY SPIRIT Reveal to me the Truth in a way I could clearly see. Do not debate with me because it will only have me grasp harder to my belief. Many share what they believe but one will only simply have an experience if GOD is Teaching. We only can plant and water it is GOD who adds the increase.

Once one has expressed from biblical sound doctrine that is all that is expected of them. GOD will send another to share with them as well, this will cause one to seek out Truth even question all views. Once that takes place GOD will do the rest, one just must be willing to receive.

We are not to beat one to believe but cause them to pause and hear. Those who have an ear. Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

One must simply take a step back and Trust GOD HE will do what HE says HE will do. Not on anyone's time only HIS Own.

Blessings!!!!!!!

sparkman · Jun 20, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

I believe the real issue is ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Mosaic Covenant.

Some Christians claim observance of the Sabbath, Holy days, clean/unclean meats and triple tithing are either requirements or conditions of salvation or necessary fruits of salvation. Some few oddballs claim that physical circumcision is also required.

I was one of them while a member of Worldwide Church of God.

The reasoning behind holding their position, at a surface level, is convincing but not when examined at a deeper level looking at the context of each of the pertinent books. As well, there is a faulty view of church history, and quite often an appeal to pride and vanity. In the group I was involved in, the church claimed we had "the truth" and that we were going to be priests and kings in the Millennium, and ultimately a God being.

How should they be treated? All you can really do is present the truth to them in the best way that you can. It requires a work of the Holy Spirit to bring one out of the deception. If the person is already saved, then God will lead them out of it.

One Baptist coworker I had spent time listening to me talk about my bad theology while I was still involved with it. I don't even know if he tried to persuade me to consider the problems with my doctrine. However, I believe he made a positive impact upon me by his hospitality and kindness. I remember that when I was presented with the errors of my beliefs, it wasn't like I was sad that I was rejecting what I'd thought was right, because I realized he displayed the fruits of conversion to me. My pastor at the time asked me what I thought about the doctrinal changes, and I told him I fully accepted them, and part of it was due to the fruits this guy displayed toward me.

just-me · Jun 20, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

sparkman said:

So do you now want others to abandoned their legalistic ways and relate to them as Paul did without condemnation for the sake of legalistic repentance unto salvation? That's my first through, let's say when I make the acquaintance with a non believing Jew who practices all the rituals and feasts.

1 Corinthians 9:19-22
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Of course a person needs to know the spiritual aspects of the rituals in order to minister truth contrary to their heresy.

fredjames · Jun 20, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

just-us-2 said:

Just for the sake of edification (which we should all welcome!), imagine you are one of those poor, misguided souls who still believe the law is a valid part of God’s “every word” and you are in the presence of more enlightened, “real” Christians. What would you want them to do? How would you want to be treated?

There are some scriptures that apply to the situation:

What I grew up with as 'the Golden Rule' - Matthew 7:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
(CJB) Always treat others as you would like them to treat you; that sums up the teaching of the Torah and the Prophets.
(Aramaic English New Testament) All that which you desire that the sons of men should do for you, also like this you do to them.

And then there is the Apostle Paul’s exhortation:
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
(CJB)
19 Being circumcised means nothing, and being uncircumcised means nothing; what does mean something is keeping God's commandments.
20 Each person should remain in the condition he was in when he was called.
21 Were you a slave when you were called? Well, don't let it bother you; although if you can gain your freedom, take advantage of the opportunity.
22 For a person who was a slave when he was called is the Lord's freedman; likewise, someone who was a free man when he was called is a slave of the Messiah.
23 You were bought at a price, so do not become slaves of other human beings.
(Aramaic English New Testament)
19 Being free from them all, I have made myself a servant to every man; that I might gain many;
20 And with the Jews, I was as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; and with those under Torah, I was under Torah, that I might gain them that are under Torah;
21 And to those who have not Torah, I was without Torah, (although I am not without Torah to Elohim, but subject to the Torah of the Mashiyach), that I might gain them that are without Torah.
22 I was with the weak, that I might gain the weak; I was all things to all men, that I might restore every one.
23 And this I do that I may participate in the announcement.

James 4:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
(CJB)
11 Brothers, stop speaking against each other! Whoever speaks against a brother or judges a brother is speaking against Torah and judging Torah. And if you judge Torah, you are not a doer of what Torah says, but a judge.
12 There is but one Giver of Torah; he is also the Judge, with the power to deliver and to destroy. Who do you think you are, judging your fellow human being?
(Aramaic English New Testament)
11 Speak not against each other, my Brothers; for he that speaks against his brother, or judges his brother speaks against Torah and judges Torah. And if you judge Torah. And if you judge Torah, you are not a doer of Torah, but its judge.
12 There is one Torah-giver and Judge who can make alive and (can) destroy: but who are youthat you judge your neighbor?

Who are we to condemn what God has spoken?
Rather, we are to “rightly divide” it and edify one another with a character of gentleness, kindness and firmness.

1 Peter 3:15-16 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1 Peter 3:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
(CJB)
15 but treat the Messiah as holy, as Lord in your hearts;s while remaining always ready to give a reasoned answer to anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you - yet with humility and fear,
16 keeping your conscience clear, so that when you are spoken against, those who abuse the good behavior flowing from your union with the Messiah may be put to shame.
(Aramaic English New Testament)
15 But sanctify Master YHWH the Mashiyach in your hearts. And be you ready for a vindication before everyone who demands of you an account of the hope of your faith,
16 in meekness and respect, as having a good conscience; so that they that speak against you as bad men may be ashamed for having maligned your good conduct in the Mashiyach.

Based on the 'title' of your 'tread', 'as it is written', from CHRIST through Apostle Paul according to his 'epistle', know to 'distinguish' them through the 'Spiritual knowledge' by the 'Help of the HOLY SPIRIT', as 'imposters' and 'counterfeits', not 'put them off', but 'ignore them' that they may 'learn Grace and Truth' further with us, according to 'as it is also written' and 'repent to GOD'.

Prayers for them to GOD in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST, may also help being in their 'ignorance'.

May GOD bless you all in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

prove-all · Jun 21, 2015

Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

sparkman said:

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

sparkman said:

I'm sure most everyone here on cc knows this by now, not breaking news any more. ok

sparkman said:

-mabe they read it in the bible here,

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

or here in Revelation 1:6, hope you are there too.
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;
to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 3:2 (KJV)
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that,
when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

-kings and priests to replace Satan and his demons in ruling over this earth.

For Satan is now the "god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is now
the "prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons
of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2). and the "father" of lies (John 8:44),

sparkman said:

-Paul taught the church was going to become corrupt also.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn
every one night and day with tears.

-"counterfeit Christianity"! The Apostles knew this was going to happen. Paul warned:

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [of Christ's return] will not come unless
the falling away [from the Truth] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.…

For the mystery of lawlessness is [already] at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He
is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with
the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7–8)

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation
has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping

“And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is
no great thing if his ministersalso be transformed as the ministers of righteousness …”

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon,
having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains,
on which the woman sitteth.-----------do you know what the woman here means?

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart
is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men"

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How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

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