-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S
None of the above names mentioned were part of the church nor a part of that dispensation. The church is a mystery that was never revealed to any of the OT prophets. It was hid from them and was not fully revealed until the apostle Paul revealed it through Christ. Christ had referred to it a few times but allowed Paul to be the one to reveal it as a mystery. I have no problem giving you all the verses on it, to leave off any opinion. The church has been purchased by the blood of Christ and will have times of trials, times of tribulation, times of suffering and times of persecution before the Lord's appears and comes back in the clouds for His church. These times will come for the church to identify with their master and head, Jesus Christ.
The Lord's appearing in the clouds will not be the second coming that many of you are so profoundly acquainted with according to your understanding. It will only be an appearance and the living church will see Him in the clouds and the dead in Christ shall rise first and those that are alive shall be caught up together with the dead to meet the Lord in the air. That is the consummation part of the mystery of the church. The church has a beginning and has an end on the earth and that is why Christ came when He did and introduced the Holy Spirit to indwell believers.
Eph 1:9,10 'Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.'
The great tribulation, the hour of temptation or the time of Jacob's trouble is something very different that takes place from what the church has gone through since the time of her inception until she is caught up and kept from the time of the great tribulation. This tribulation is different and great because never has the earth been subject to something so great and terrible. It is not for the church, it was never prophesied for the church nor appointed to the church because the church has been redeemed from it through the blood of Christ. God has a very different purpose for Israel and the Jews who remain in unbelief and have to pass through the great tribulation. We, the church and body of Christ, now look for His appearing and will come back with Him with our new glorified bodies in the second coming because we are in Christ and we come to reign with Him.
The Lord's appearing in the clouds will not be the second coming that many of you are so profoundly acquainted with according to your understanding. It will only be an appearance and the living church will see Him in the clouds and the dead in Christ shall rise first and those that are alive shall be caught up together with the dead to meet the Lord in the air. That is the consummation part of the mystery of the church. The church has a beginning and has an end on the earth and that is why Christ came when He did and introduced the Holy Spirit to indwell believers.
Eph 1:9,10 'Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.'
The great tribulation, the hour of temptation or the time of Jacob's trouble is something very different that takes place from what the church has gone through since the time of her inception until she is caught up and kept from the time of the great tribulation. This tribulation is different and great because never has the earth been subject to something so great and terrible. It is not for the church, it was never prophesied for the church nor appointed to the church because the church has been redeemed from it through the blood of Christ. God has a very different purpose for Israel and the Jews who remain in unbelief and have to pass through the great tribulation. We, the church and body of Christ, now look for His appearing and will come back with Him with our new glorified bodies in the second coming because we are in Christ and we come to reign with Him.
M
Praise God for the victory! Many of us put hours and hours into this thread and it was worth every second. All glory to our Lord. You stand strong friends and I will too and I will see you in that Day. Glory be to the Lamb. Opening your eyes to the simplicity in which Christ taught is such a wonderful gift. Glory to God.
Paul suffered great for the word of God. This chapter in particular touches my heart. What man of God that Paul was. He suffered much so we would understand.
2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
What a point in his life Paul was at here.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ
He so wants us to understand how important it is that he present us as virgins and we don't mistakenly follow satan and be destroyed with him.
3But I fear, lest by any means,as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Follow the simplicity in which Christ taught and not these far out complicated doctrines of men because you will have a chance to do what Eve failed to do, reject satan and his great lie to his face.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
The rapture doctrine teaches to follow the first to come, unfortunately that other Jesus is satan, who comes first.
5For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
He was right up there with the best of them.
6But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
Sometimes he had to be rude to get the point through there thick skulls and stiff necks but he never held back the love of the Truth.
7Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
Paul never took a dime because he didn't want the fake preachers of that day to say he did it for the money, so he took not one dime from Corinth.
8I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
Look up robbed in the Gr. sulao. Other churches insisted he take a wage and he used them for Corinth.
9And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
He didn't take the basic necessities, like food, from Corinth. The brothers from Macedonia provided.
10As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
Nothings going to stop Paul from teaching the truth about remaining chaste virgins to Christ.
11Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
He does it out of love, he doesn't want you to be deceived.
12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
They cannot say a thing about Paul. He's not doing it for money and he can pull the curtain down on them at any time because they won't stop preaching for money.
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Transforming= disguising; Apostles= those sent by God. What was the first warning Christ gave us in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24.'many shall come in my name'
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Satan himself will be disguised as an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Sadly, there are many ministers also out there that are not righteous. You see them all over the TV.
16I say again, let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
They provoke him for this message.
Please read the rest and see the great suffering that Paul went through, it's heartbreaking.
17That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
22Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
32In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
Paul suffered great for the word of God. This chapter in particular touches my heart. What man of God that Paul was. He suffered much so we would understand.
2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
What a point in his life Paul was at here.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ
He so wants us to understand how important it is that he present us as virgins and we don't mistakenly follow satan and be destroyed with him.
3But I fear, lest by any means,as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Follow the simplicity in which Christ taught and not these far out complicated doctrines of men because you will have a chance to do what Eve failed to do, reject satan and his great lie to his face.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
The rapture doctrine teaches to follow the first to come, unfortunately that other Jesus is satan, who comes first.
5For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
He was right up there with the best of them.
6But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
Sometimes he had to be rude to get the point through there thick skulls and stiff necks but he never held back the love of the Truth.
7Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
Paul never took a dime because he didn't want the fake preachers of that day to say he did it for the money, so he took not one dime from Corinth.
8I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
Look up robbed in the Gr. sulao. Other churches insisted he take a wage and he used them for Corinth.
9And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
He didn't take the basic necessities, like food, from Corinth. The brothers from Macedonia provided.
10As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
Nothings going to stop Paul from teaching the truth about remaining chaste virgins to Christ.
11Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
He does it out of love, he doesn't want you to be deceived.
12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
They cannot say a thing about Paul. He's not doing it for money and he can pull the curtain down on them at any time because they won't stop preaching for money.
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Transforming= disguising; Apostles= those sent by God. What was the first warning Christ gave us in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24.'many shall come in my name'
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Satan himself will be disguised as an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Sadly, there are many ministers also out there that are not righteous. You see them all over the TV.
16I say again, let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
They provoke him for this message.
Please read the rest and see the great suffering that Paul went through, it's heartbreaking.
17That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
22Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
32In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
if that were true, and the Old testament were not talking of the Church, then the prophesies that were mentioned in the Old Testament for Israel would not be fulfilled by the Church in the New testament...
I quote one of your dispensational teachers, Charles C. Ryie from an unpublished Master's Thesis from the Dallas Theological Seminary, 1941 called THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE NEW COVENANT TO PREMILLENNIALISM {p. 31}, and i quote:
Prophesied to Israel
Hosea 1:10
fulfilled by the church
Romans 9:22-26
prophesied to Israel
Hosea 2:23
fulfilled by the church
1 Peter 2:9-10
prophesied to Israel
Amos 9:11
fulfilled by the church
Acts 15:14-18
prophesied to Israel
Joel 2:28-32
fulfilled by the church
Acts 2:17-21
in this same manner, there are also many Old Testament passages that refer to Israel, and yet are directly applied to the church in the New Testament
referred to Israel
Exodus 19:6
directly applied to the church
1 Peter 2:9
referred to Israel
Ezekiel 37:27
directly applied to the church
2 Corinthians 7:16
referred to Israel
Leviticus 19:2
directly applied to the church
1 Peter 1:16
referred to Israel
Jeremiah 31:31
directly applied to the church
Luke 22:20
dispensationalism is condemned.
this is the Biblical definition for the word "dispensation":
G3622
οἰκονομία
oikonomia
oy-kon-om-ee'-ah
From G3623; administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) “economy”: - dispensation, stewardship.
G3623
οἰκονόμος
oikonomos
oy-kon-om'-os
From G3624 and the base of G3551; a house distributor (that is, manager), or overseer, that is, an employee in that capacity; by extension a fiscal agent (treasurer); figuratively a preacher (of the Gospel): - chamberlain, governor, steward.
a dispensation is NOT some time period in which man is tested to meet certain requirements... that is nothing but an outright lie, started by Cyrus Scofield, who was NOT by any means a Bible Scholar.
Dispensationalism itself has no Biblical ground whatsoever within the confines of not only Christ's teaching, but it also does not exist in any of the early church... Dispensationalism and Zionism sprang up from the teachings of Edward Irving & John Nelson Darby int he early 19th century... it was pushed by Cyrus Scofield, and is now pushed by modern theologians who have been led astray by a lie. You now find it within the confines of the most popular churches today, like John Hagee's church in San Antonio, who has already claimed when he was advertising his book In Defense of Israel, that Jesus did not come to be the Messiah
tribulation has never been and never will be temptation. if it were then the word used in Revelation 3:10 would not be "peirasmos"... it would be either "thlipsis" or "thlibo", which are the greek terms for tribulation, which simply means persecution. "Thlipsis" does not change simply because the word "megas " is in front of it. That is a false teaching created by man to lull the church into a deep sleep, so that they will not be aware of the deception around them
Paul himself never looked for a secret rapture... he says many times that he looked forward to the resurrection of the dead in Philippians... he even warns against an imminent teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
Nowhere in the word of God does it say the Church is kept away from tribulation. Absolutely nowhere.
I quote one of your dispensational teachers, Charles C. Ryie from an unpublished Master's Thesis from the Dallas Theological Seminary, 1941 called THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE NEW COVENANT TO PREMILLENNIALISM {p. 31}, and i quote:
Prophesied to Israel
Hosea 1:10
fulfilled by the church
Romans 9:22-26
prophesied to Israel
Hosea 2:23
fulfilled by the church
1 Peter 2:9-10
prophesied to Israel
Amos 9:11
fulfilled by the church
Acts 15:14-18
prophesied to Israel
Joel 2:28-32
fulfilled by the church
Acts 2:17-21
in this same manner, there are also many Old Testament passages that refer to Israel, and yet are directly applied to the church in the New Testament
referred to Israel
Exodus 19:6
directly applied to the church
1 Peter 2:9
referred to Israel
Ezekiel 37:27
directly applied to the church
2 Corinthians 7:16
referred to Israel
Leviticus 19:2
directly applied to the church
1 Peter 1:16
referred to Israel
Jeremiah 31:31
directly applied to the church
Luke 22:20
dispensationalism is condemned.
this is the Biblical definition for the word "dispensation":
G3622
οἰκονομία
oikonomia
oy-kon-om-ee'-ah
From G3623; administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) “economy”: - dispensation, stewardship.
G3623
οἰκονόμος
oikonomos
oy-kon-om'-os
From G3624 and the base of G3551; a house distributor (that is, manager), or overseer, that is, an employee in that capacity; by extension a fiscal agent (treasurer); figuratively a preacher (of the Gospel): - chamberlain, governor, steward.
a dispensation is NOT some time period in which man is tested to meet certain requirements... that is nothing but an outright lie, started by Cyrus Scofield, who was NOT by any means a Bible Scholar.
Dispensationalism itself has no Biblical ground whatsoever within the confines of not only Christ's teaching, but it also does not exist in any of the early church... Dispensationalism and Zionism sprang up from the teachings of Edward Irving & John Nelson Darby int he early 19th century... it was pushed by Cyrus Scofield, and is now pushed by modern theologians who have been led astray by a lie. You now find it within the confines of the most popular churches today, like John Hagee's church in San Antonio, who has already claimed when he was advertising his book In Defense of Israel, that Jesus did not come to be the Messiah
tribulation has never been and never will be temptation. if it were then the word used in Revelation 3:10 would not be "peirasmos"... it would be either "thlipsis" or "thlibo", which are the greek terms for tribulation, which simply means persecution. "Thlipsis" does not change simply because the word "megas " is in front of it. That is a false teaching created by man to lull the church into a deep sleep, so that they will not be aware of the deception around them
Paul himself never looked for a secret rapture... he says many times that he looked forward to the resurrection of the dead in Philippians... he even warns against an imminent teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
Nowhere in the word of God does it say the Church is kept away from tribulation. Absolutely nowhere.
Last edited:
ILL DO THIS ONE MORE TIME
BEFORE I GIVE SCRIPTURE
WE KNOW BY SCRIPTURE
THAT THE RAPTURE IS....... IN FACT
7 YEARS BEFORE THE SECOND ADVENT WHICH IS ARMAGEDDON
AND THE 7 YEARS REPRESENT TRIBULATION
AND TO MAKE SURE I AM NOT CONFUSING YOU
THE APPEARING IN THE CLOUDS WHICH IS RAPTURE
IS NOT
THE SECOND ADVENT
LUKE 21:36...Watch ye therefore, and pray always, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, and to stand before the SON OF MAN.
THIS IS JESUS SPEAKING...IF YOUR SAVED WHEN RAPTURE TAKES PLACE YOU WILL BE STANDING BEFORE JESUS AND THIS IS NOT THE STANDING BEFORE JESUS ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT BUT THE DAY OF SALVATION FROM TRIBULATION
1 THESSALONIANS 5:4...But ye, brethern (US THE BRIDE) are not in darkness (TRIBULATION), that day should overtake you as a thief.
WE WILL NOT BE IN TRIBULATION FOR OUR LIGHT WILL NOT BE IN DARKNESS WHICH IS A REFERENCE TO TRIBULATION
1 THESSALONIANS 5:9...For GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH (TRIBULATION), but to obtain salvation by our LORD JESUS CHRIST.
GOD HAS PROMISED US THE BRIDE TO NOT GO THRU WRATH OR TRIBULATION
2 THESSALONIANS 2:7...For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: ONLY HE (JESUS) who now letteth will let (LETTING ANTICHRIST COME TO PASS), UNTIL HE (US THE BRIDE) be taken out of the way.
JESUS WILL NOT LET THE ANTICHRIST COME TO PASS UNTIL HE REMOVES US HIS BRIDE FIRST
REVELATIONS 4:1...AFTER THIS (META TAUTA = WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER)..........
THIS (META TAUTA) IS SPECIFIC TO SHOW AFTER THE RAPTURE HAS TAKEN PLACE THESE EVENT ARE TO FOLLOW AS YOU CONTINUE READING IN REVELATIONS CHAPTERS 4 AND 5 WHICH PRELUDES INTO CHAPTER 6 BEGINNING WITH REVELATION OF THE ANTICHRIST
THESE 5 SCRIPTURES
ARE SPECIFIC
TO SHOW THAT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST
WILL BE TAKEN AWAY BEFORE THE INTRODUCTION OF THE ANTICHRIST IS TO APPEAR
WHICH
WHEN THE ANTICHRIST APPEARS WE KNOW THIS IS.......
THE BEGINNING
OF THE TRIBULATION
SO
IF WE ARE NOT HERE WHEN THE ANTICHRIST IS INTRODUCED
THEN , WHERE ARE WE???
WE ARE RAPTURED WHICH IS PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURED
BEFORE I GIVE SCRIPTURE
WE KNOW BY SCRIPTURE
THAT THE RAPTURE IS....... IN FACT
7 YEARS BEFORE THE SECOND ADVENT WHICH IS ARMAGEDDON
AND THE 7 YEARS REPRESENT TRIBULATION
AND TO MAKE SURE I AM NOT CONFUSING YOU
THE APPEARING IN THE CLOUDS WHICH IS RAPTURE
IS NOT
THE SECOND ADVENT
LUKE 21:36...Watch ye therefore, and pray always, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, and to stand before the SON OF MAN.
THIS IS JESUS SPEAKING...IF YOUR SAVED WHEN RAPTURE TAKES PLACE YOU WILL BE STANDING BEFORE JESUS AND THIS IS NOT THE STANDING BEFORE JESUS ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT BUT THE DAY OF SALVATION FROM TRIBULATION
1 THESSALONIANS 5:4...But ye, brethern (US THE BRIDE) are not in darkness (TRIBULATION), that day should overtake you as a thief.
WE WILL NOT BE IN TRIBULATION FOR OUR LIGHT WILL NOT BE IN DARKNESS WHICH IS A REFERENCE TO TRIBULATION
1 THESSALONIANS 5:9...For GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH (TRIBULATION), but to obtain salvation by our LORD JESUS CHRIST.
GOD HAS PROMISED US THE BRIDE TO NOT GO THRU WRATH OR TRIBULATION
2 THESSALONIANS 2:7...For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: ONLY HE (JESUS) who now letteth will let (LETTING ANTICHRIST COME TO PASS), UNTIL HE (US THE BRIDE) be taken out of the way.
JESUS WILL NOT LET THE ANTICHRIST COME TO PASS UNTIL HE REMOVES US HIS BRIDE FIRST
REVELATIONS 4:1...AFTER THIS (META TAUTA = WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER)..........
THIS (META TAUTA) IS SPECIFIC TO SHOW AFTER THE RAPTURE HAS TAKEN PLACE THESE EVENT ARE TO FOLLOW AS YOU CONTINUE READING IN REVELATIONS CHAPTERS 4 AND 5 WHICH PRELUDES INTO CHAPTER 6 BEGINNING WITH REVELATION OF THE ANTICHRIST
THESE 5 SCRIPTURES
ARE SPECIFIC
TO SHOW THAT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST
WILL BE TAKEN AWAY BEFORE THE INTRODUCTION OF THE ANTICHRIST IS TO APPEAR
WHICH
WHEN THE ANTICHRIST APPEARS WE KNOW THIS IS.......
THE BEGINNING
OF THE TRIBULATION
SO
IF WE ARE NOT HERE WHEN THE ANTICHRIST IS INTRODUCED
THEN , WHERE ARE WE???
WE ARE RAPTURED WHICH IS PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURED
C
Zillah: you posted "tribulation has never been and never will be temptation. if it were then the word used in Revelation 3:10 would not be "peirasmos"... it would be either "thlipsis" or "thlibo", which are the greek terms for tribulation, which simply means persecution. "Thlipsis" does not change simply because the word "megas " is in front of it. That is a false teaching created by man to lull the church into a deep sleep, so that they will not be aware of the deception around them"
I'm not sure if I am understanding this correctly as you seem to change argument in mid-stream, but perhaps I am misreading. "Peirasmos" can be used for temptation. In the context of Rev 3:10, ek tes horas tou peirasmou tes mellouses epxesthai epi tes oikoumenes, would be translated the more common tribulation rather than temptation.
I'm not sure if I am understanding this correctly as you seem to change argument in mid-stream, but perhaps I am misreading. "Peirasmos" can be used for temptation. In the context of Rev 3:10, ek tes horas tou peirasmou tes mellouses epxesthai epi tes oikoumenes, would be translated the more common tribulation rather than temptation.
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Greek New Testament
ἀγρυπνεῖτε οὐν ἐν παντὶ καιρῷ δεόμενοι ἵνα καταξιωθῆτε ἐκφυγεῖν ταῦτα πάντα τὰ μέλλοντα γίνεσθαι καὶ σταθῆναι ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
εκφυγειν {verb, second Aorist, transitive, active voice, neuter gender}
ekpheugō
ek-fyoo'-go
From G1537 and G5343; to flee out: - escape, flee.
the definitions of the voices in Greek grammar
1. Simple Active
The subject performs or experiences the action. The verb may be transitive or intransitive. This is the normal or routine use, by far the most common.
1. Simple Passive
The most common use of the passive voice is to indicate that the subject receives the action. No implication is made about cognition, volition, or cause on the part of the subject. This usage occurs both with and without and expressed agent.
if the verb "ekpheugo" had a passive voice, then it could stand to reason that it takes of a rapture... but it uses the active voice. A rapture is impossible.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
the darkness refers to the state of one's soul in response to Christ... the wicked and ungodly are in darkness. It does not refer to tribulation.
John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
1 Thessalonians 5:5-7
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (Greek New Testament)
ὅτι οὐκ ἔθετο ἡμᾶς ὁ Θεὸς εἰς ὀργὴν, ἀλλ᾿ εἰς περιποίησιν σωτηρίας διὰ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ,
G3709
ὀργή
orgē
or-gay'
From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Greek New Testament
ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ εἰρήνην ἔχητε. ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ θλῖψιν ἔχετε· ἀλλὰ θαρσεῖτε, ἐγὼ νενίκηκα τὸν κόσμον.
G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
1 Thessalonians 3:1-4
1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
v.3 "θλίψις"
v. 4 "θλίβω"
G2346
θλίβω
thlibō
thlee'-bo
Akin to the base of G5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively): - afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble.
wrath is not tribulation... for if wrath were tribulation, this would be in contradiction to the Word of God.
this verse has already been discussed before in this thread.
Revelation 4:1 speaks only to John, and how he is taken in the spirit, to be shown things which we will also see... a rapture in reference to Revelation 4:1 is a prime example of eisogesis: going into the Word of God with a personal opinion, belief, or interpretation, and trying to find proof for your personal interpretation
when examined, and put into harmony with the rest of the Word of God these so called "proof verses" of a pre-trib rapture are found as only misinterpretations of scripture.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Greek New Testament
ἀγρυπνεῖτε οὐν ἐν παντὶ καιρῷ δεόμενοι ἵνα καταξιωθῆτε ἐκφυγεῖν ταῦτα πάντα τὰ μέλλοντα γίνεσθαι καὶ σταθῆναι ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
εκφυγειν {verb, second Aorist, transitive, active voice, neuter gender}
ekpheugō
ek-fyoo'-go
From G1537 and G5343; to flee out: - escape, flee.
the definitions of the voices in Greek grammar
1. Simple Active
The subject performs or experiences the action. The verb may be transitive or intransitive. This is the normal or routine use, by far the most common.
1. Simple Passive
The most common use of the passive voice is to indicate that the subject receives the action. No implication is made about cognition, volition, or cause on the part of the subject. This usage occurs both with and without and expressed agent.
if the verb "ekpheugo" had a passive voice, then it could stand to reason that it takes of a rapture... but it uses the active voice. A rapture is impossible.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
the darkness refers to the state of one's soul in response to Christ... the wicked and ungodly are in darkness. It does not refer to tribulation.
John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
1 Thessalonians 5:5-7
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (Greek New Testament)
ὅτι οὐκ ἔθετο ἡμᾶς ὁ Θεὸς εἰς ὀργὴν, ἀλλ᾿ εἰς περιποίησιν σωτηρίας διὰ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ,
G3709
ὀργή
orgē
or-gay'
From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Greek New Testament
ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ εἰρήνην ἔχητε. ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ θλῖψιν ἔχετε· ἀλλὰ θαρσεῖτε, ἐγὼ νενίκηκα τὸν κόσμον.
G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
1 Thessalonians 3:1-4
1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
v.3 "θλίψις"
v. 4 "θλίβω"
G2346
θλίβω
thlibō
thlee'-bo
Akin to the base of G5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively): - afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble.
wrath is not tribulation... for if wrath were tribulation, this would be in contradiction to the Word of God.
this verse has already been discussed before in this thread.
Revelation 4:1 speaks only to John, and how he is taken in the spirit, to be shown things which we will also see... a rapture in reference to Revelation 4:1 is a prime example of eisogesis: going into the Word of God with a personal opinion, belief, or interpretation, and trying to find proof for your personal interpretation
when examined, and put into harmony with the rest of the Word of God these so called "proof verses" of a pre-trib rapture are found as only misinterpretations of scripture.
Last edited:
very true 
.. however there is nothing wrong with debate or discussion, for iron sharpens iron... the problem lies in when people start to make the claim that one's own salvation is based upon believing in a pre-trib rapture or not, and more than one occasion, I have seen pre-tribualtionalists make this claim that one is a non-believer/unsaved/non-Christian/Mormon/Jehovah's Witness because they don't believe in pre-tribulation.
that is where the problem lies... pride and arrogance in light of scripture.
I, for one, did believe in pre-tribulation all my life... that is, until I finally stopped listening to what my pastor was telling me, and started to read the Word of God by itself... no personal interpretations, no personal beliefs or doctrines, and only relying on the Word to answer itself without the help of modern day theological teaching... and the Word of God answers itself beautifully
.. however there is nothing wrong with debate or discussion, for iron sharpens iron... the problem lies in when people start to make the claim that one's own salvation is based upon believing in a pre-trib rapture or not, and more than one occasion, I have seen pre-tribualtionalists make this claim that one is a non-believer/unsaved/non-Christian/Mormon/Jehovah's Witness because they don't believe in pre-tribulation.that is where the problem lies... pride and arrogance in light of scripture.
I, for one, did believe in pre-tribulation all my life... that is, until I finally stopped listening to what my pastor was telling me, and started to read the Word of God by itself... no personal interpretations, no personal beliefs or doctrines, and only relying on the Word to answer itself without the help of modern day theological teaching... and the Word of God answers itself beautifully
C
very true .. however there is nothing wrong with debate or discussion, for iron sharpens iron... the problem lies in when people start to make the claim that one's own salvation is based upon believing in a pre-trib rapture or not, and more than one occasion, I have seen pre-tribualtionalists make this claim that one is a non-believer/unsaved/non-Christian/Mormon/Jehovah's Witness because they don't believe in pre-tribulation.
that is where the problem lies... pride and arrogance in light of scripture.
I, for one, did believe in pre-tribulation all my life... that is, until I finally stopped listening to what my pastor was telling me, and started to read the Word of God by itself... no personal interpretations, no personal beliefs or doctrines, and only relying on the Word to answer itself without the help of modern day theological teaching... and the Word of God answers itself beautifully
.. however there is nothing wrong with debate or discussion, for iron sharpens iron... the problem lies in when people start to make the claim that one's own salvation is based upon believing in a pre-trib rapture or not, and more than one occasion, I have seen pre-tribualtionalists make this claim that one is a non-believer/unsaved/non-Christian/Mormon/Jehovah's Witness because they don't believe in pre-tribulation.that is where the problem lies... pride and arrogance in light of scripture.
I, for one, did believe in pre-tribulation all my life... that is, until I finally stopped listening to what my pastor was telling me, and started to read the Word of God by itself... no personal interpretations, no personal beliefs or doctrines, and only relying on the Word to answer itself without the help of modern day theological teaching... and the Word of God answers itself beautifully
and when it comes to tribulation, what does the Word say? (John 16:33, 1 Thessalonians 3:1-4)
if it were to be tribulation, then it would say "tribulation"... not "temptation". don't put words there that are not supposed to be there. Every word is where it is supposed to be, and if we change it to suit our own personal interpretation, we are adding and taking away from the Word of God.
when it comes to temptation, what does the Word say about temptation? (James 1:2-4, James 1:12, 1 Corinthians 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-17
if 99% of the Word of God says one thing, and a modern day doctrine says another, which one will you follow?
in the context of Revelation 3:10, "keep thee from/tereo se ek", only one other verse uses the basic phrase in the same manner (John 17:15 "keep them from/tereo autos ek")
and the Greek Preposition "ek" itself means "out of"... denoting the motion of the object from the interior, or the immediate origin... we see this not only in John 17:15, But we also see it in many, many other examples int he Bible [Matthew 7:5, Matthew 8:28, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 3:18]
just as we have one word for love(love), and the Greek language has 3 words that define term love (agape, phileo, eros), the Greek has one word (ek), and the English language has 3 words that define that Greek term (from, by, out of)... not to mention the preposition "ek" is the exact opposite of the preposition "eis"
if it were to be tribulation, then it would say "tribulation"... not "temptation". don't put words there that are not supposed to be there. Every word is where it is supposed to be, and if we change it to suit our own personal interpretation, we are adding and taking away from the Word of God.
when it comes to temptation, what does the Word say about temptation? (James 1:2-4, James 1:12, 1 Corinthians 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-17
if 99% of the Word of God says one thing, and a modern day doctrine says another, which one will you follow?
in the context of Revelation 3:10, "keep thee from/tereo se ek", only one other verse uses the basic phrase in the same manner (John 17:15 "keep them from/tereo autos ek")
and the Greek Preposition "ek" itself means "out of"... denoting the motion of the object from the interior, or the immediate origin... we see this not only in John 17:15, But we also see it in many, many other examples int he Bible [Matthew 7:5, Matthew 8:28, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 3:18]
just as we have one word for love(love), and the Greek language has 3 words that define term love (agape, phileo, eros), the Greek has one word (ek), and the English language has 3 words that define that Greek term (from, by, out of)... not to mention the preposition "ek" is the exact opposite of the preposition "eis"
C
As I said, the word "peirasmos" can be translated either temptation or tribulation depending on the context. The "ek" is not connected directly with peirosmos, but with horas. We are not being told that he will keep us from temptation/tribulation, but from the hour of temptation/tribulation. What makes this hard to translate as temptation is what follows: which is about to come upon the whole world (tes mellouses erchesthai epi tes oikoumenes). Actually, the English word "out" can be used in those same ways, so that's no big deal. Are you self-taught in Koine?
lets look at "peirasmos" then, and tis definition, and see if it does stand that ground:
G3986
πειρασμός
peirasmos
pi-ras-mos'
From G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try.
G3985
πειράζω
peirazō
pi-rad'-zo
From G3984; to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.
G3984
πεῖρα
peira
pi'-rah
From the base of G4008 (through the idea of piercing); a test, that is, attempt, experience: - assaying, trial.
G4008
πέραν
peran
per'-an
Apparently the accusative case of an obsolete derivation of πείρω peirō (to “peirce”); through (as adverb or preposition), that is, across: - beyond, farther (other) side, over.
when we look at temptation itself or tribulation itself, Christ continuously tells us to endure, no matter which it is... when we are tempted, it is our faith in which is tested. this talks of protection by endurance on our part, no matter if it be temptation or tribulation...
Matthew 5:11-12
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
God's Word has always been about patience, perseverance, and endurance... and as the Word of God says in John 15:20-24
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
if you want to get technical, it is my personal belief that this hour of temptation is when the world is tempted to believe that the Antichrist is indeed as he says he is: Jesus Christ returned (of course, hes not). keep in mind, though, that protection does not have to mean physical protection... it can mean just spiritual protection... we may die, but we will still have eternal life with Jesus Christ. With this teaching of pre-tribulationism comes the fear of death, which none of us should ever fear, and the doctrine of escapism in terms of persecution, which God has never done in His Word. Both of these i experienced personally well into my mid 20's before i actually read the Bible...
and you give me to much credit when it comes to the grammar... everything that I have learned comes simply from the desire to wanting to know more about the Word of God, and it was Christ who put that desire in me, so He deserves all credit and glory
G3986
πειρασμός
peirasmos
pi-ras-mos'
From G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try.
G3985
πειράζω
peirazō
pi-rad'-zo
From G3984; to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.
G3984
πεῖρα
peira
pi'-rah
From the base of G4008 (through the idea of piercing); a test, that is, attempt, experience: - assaying, trial.
G4008
πέραν
peran
per'-an
Apparently the accusative case of an obsolete derivation of πείρω peirō (to “peirce”); through (as adverb or preposition), that is, across: - beyond, farther (other) side, over.
when we look at temptation itself or tribulation itself, Christ continuously tells us to endure, no matter which it is... when we are tempted, it is our faith in which is tested. this talks of protection by endurance on our part, no matter if it be temptation or tribulation...
Matthew 5:11-12
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
God's Word has always been about patience, perseverance, and endurance... and as the Word of God says in John 15:20-24
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
if you want to get technical, it is my personal belief that this hour of temptation is when the world is tempted to believe that the Antichrist is indeed as he says he is: Jesus Christ returned (of course, hes not). keep in mind, though, that protection does not have to mean physical protection... it can mean just spiritual protection... we may die, but we will still have eternal life with Jesus Christ. With this teaching of pre-tribulationism comes the fear of death, which none of us should ever fear, and the doctrine of escapism in terms of persecution, which God has never done in His Word. Both of these i experienced personally well into my mid 20's before i actually read the Bible...
and you give me to much credit when it comes to the grammar... everything that I have learned comes simply from the desire to wanting to know more about the Word of God, and it was Christ who put that desire in me, so He deserves all credit and glory
C
lets look at "peirasmos" then, and tis definition, and see if it does stand that ground:
Looks like you are using Strongs. Once you get further in Koine, you will have to give up Strongs as a primary source. His concordance is built for brevity. The other thing is that etymology is interesting but not again or primary use in translating. So, lets say we use Thayer, a middle level Lexicon: Classical use--trial. Septuagint uses it to translate trial. In the NT it is used primarily as temptation and secondarily as tribulation. Normally that means that you start with temptation in your mind, but stay aware of contextual clues that would translate it as tribualtion. In Wigram's Greek concordance you would find that the context of temptation is pretty common. Paul uses it pretty consistantly to mean the temptation, but Peter uses it for tribulation. The Revelation passage is the only Johannine reference so context would have to take it out of the temptation use and into tribualtion. My evaluation of the language would say that the context does just that, though I don't think it is a direct reference to the Great Trouble of premillenialism.
Looks like you are using Strongs. Once you get further in Koine, you will have to give up Strongs as a primary source. His concordance is built for brevity. The other thing is that etymology is interesting but not again or primary use in translating. So, lets say we use Thayer, a middle level Lexicon: Classical use--trial. Septuagint uses it to translate trial. In the NT it is used primarily as temptation and secondarily as tribulation. Normally that means that you start with temptation in your mind, but stay aware of contextual clues that would translate it as tribualtion. In Wigram's Greek concordance you would find that the context of temptation is pretty common. Paul uses it pretty consistantly to mean the temptation, but Peter uses it for tribulation. The Revelation passage is the only Johannine reference so context would have to take it out of the temptation use and into tribualtion. My evaluation of the language would say that the context does just that, though I don't think it is a direct reference to the Great Trouble of premillenialism.
C
Regarding your study of Greek, it is always preferable to study under a skilled scholar. Failing that, I would suggest you start with Machen's grammar. It is Johannine, which is a good place to start. I wouldn't worry too much about the chapter on accenting as that is mostly used in manuscript translation since the early ms had neither punctuation or word breaks.
regardless of it either being tribulation or temptation, the use of "ek" and "tereo" begin used in the same manner as John 17:15 uses it does not refer this verse to describing a pre-tribulation rapture... again, it talks about endurance, not escapism.
we're now simply going into the semantics of this term when we don't need to, because the Word of God already states that we are to persevere and endure through either temptation or tribulation... we cannot take one verse and say it means something else entirely when the rest of the Word of God says differently... that's personal assumption and private interpretation, something 2 Peter 1:20-21 warns us to not do
we're now simply going into the semantics of this term when we don't need to, because the Word of God already states that we are to persevere and endure through either temptation or tribulation... we cannot take one verse and say it means something else entirely when the rest of the Word of God says differently... that's personal assumption and private interpretation, something 2 Peter 1:20-21 warns us to not do