Why do cults appeal to some seekers?

[sparkman]

The questions I ask myself regarding fellowships to attend:

1) Do the people in the church show love toward each other?
2) If I brought a seeker to services, would they hear a clear presentation of the gospel message?
3) Do I think it's a healthy environment for new believers?
4) Is their focus on Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in him, or is it about some other false gospel?
5) Is sound doctrine taught there?
6) Is the pastor trustworthy? Would I trust him to exercise church discipline in a fair manner if I needed it?
7) Are they handling finances responsibly?

Those are some of the criteria I use, and it disqualifies a lot of churches.

 

[sparkman]

@mwc68 do you like Rich Mullins' music?

I benefitted a lot from his music over the years. They were like mini sermons.

 

[JesusIsAll]

@mwc68 do you like Rich Mullins' music?

I benefitted a lot from his music over the years. They were like mini sermons.

[video=youtube;XejzqulWj2k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XejzqulWj2k[/video]​

 

[sparkman]

@BettyAnn

Thanks for sharing.

Most Amish own a Bible,usually a Lutheran in German or an approved English version. It's truly not a matter of owning a Bible but rather how it's read.

Every bishop is different in strictures and expectations, most will also tell the community which parts are off limits for reading and usually there are restrictions against private study for fear of personal interpretations.

Giving Bibles are wonderful to make a connection and jumpstart mutual respect. But a tract aimed at Amish audience would work better as long as it's gentle in nature as far as tone.

 

[mwc68]

@mwc68 do you like Rich Mullins' music?

I benefitted a lot from his music over the years. They were like mini sermons.

Yeah, i really do! I am playing "Awesome God" as one of the songs this evening at services

 

[sparkman]

Yeah, i really do! I am playing "Awesome God" as one of the songs this evening at services

I have all but one album of his..Canticles of the Plains. I didn't like it so much.

My favorite song is While the Nations Rage.

When I rejected the teachings of WCG, I began listening to Christian music by "other Christians" and the depth of Rich Mullins' music blew me away. I knew that his songs reflected a deeper level of conversion that I had attained.

 

[mwc68]

I have all but one album of his..Canticles of the Plains. I didn't like it so much.

My favorite song is While the Nations Rage.

When I rejected the teachings of WCG, I began listening to Christian music by "other Christians" and the depth of Rich Mullins' music blew me away. I knew that his songs reflected a deeper level of conversion that I had attained.

I also like Hillsong, Chris Tomlin, Third Day, Matt Maher, etc. and I still love STRYPER

 

[flob]

Our experience with a cult -
When husband and I were Adventist it was from a mix of Biblical illiteracy and tricks. Our Biblical questions were answered so convincingly and so snaketongued that neither of us had any warning flags pop up. And the doctrine was very close to other Biblical churces except for the belief in prophecy and signs and Ellen White was talked about to in passing but not in the doctrinal statements. The preacher there was replaced after about two years and the new preacher was the one who brought the standard SDA doctrines in, that's when bullying and namecalling began against many of us because we were expected not to raise questions. I was still covering my head at the time out of conviction rather than fear of salvation issues and had only stopped after much prayer and searching the Word; that's when the preacher noticed and yelled at me from the pulpit one sunday demanding I cover because God told him that I was meant to cover because my sins aren't forgiven and called it a new revelation. And people started babbling and dancing,shouting,rolling on the floor after that,doing tongues. The rest of us just looked at each other all confused, some of us scared and crying. It was very scary. I didn't know what to do so I sat there like a rock a while before my husband grabbed my hand and quite literally pulled me away. It was a very awkward time in the car trying to come to grips with what we saw.
The doctrine and focus had shifted so slowly and subtlety even an intelligent man like my husband didn't pick it out until it went crazy. Neither of us was ready for the harassment all of us who left faced. I had gone through life in a cult before when I was Amish so I felt doubly stupid for failing back in to another and my husband was fretting for a while because he was the one who originally wanted to go. It took much time,Word and prayer to heal.

How wild, how weird.. It sounds like a demon-possessed gathering.
I wonder what made your husband originally interested in such an odd thing---7th Day Adventism.

Walter Martin's warning against the "semantic jungle" through which cults attempt to envelop the believer with confusing terminology should not be heard as just a warning against blatant cults "out there somewhere". It is a strange curiosity that those Christians who are most adamant that ours is the generation that will see the Lord's return and end-time deception and apostasy associated with his return look for signs of this deception outside the church, in such conspiracies as the New Age movement, and such cults as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Science. Admitedly, those movements pose potential threats to the church, but perhaps we would do better to look for deception of the end-times where Jesus and the New testament predicted it would occur: within the church,

Mormonism, JW, CS, and New Age target genuine Christians (according to Walter Martin)?
Of course they don't know Christ, nor, consequently, true children of God (John 3:8), so they may 'target' everybody.
Christians, or Christ, targets the world. To believe into Him, and enter into His invisible Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is Christ in His saints.

 

[dcontroversal]

I also like Hillsong, Chris Tomlin, Third Day, Matt Maher, etc. and I still love STRYPER

HAHA Stryper.....been a long time since I heard that name.....I remember thinking their songs could be applied unto numerous areas of life and that they did not necessarily imply Christian principles...I liked the guitar for sure though....

 

[prove-all]

As I write this, I want to be careful when I say this, as I think that most of those
who are incompetent and teach foolishness are tares and goats, and not true believers.

yes you should be carefull how you judge and label people,
like every church that teaches the Sabbath you label all cults for doing so.
Jesus keep the Sabbath , so did paul and others through history.

Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference
between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean
and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.


also Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Two, the theology of cults appeal to human pride and vanity.
One of their doctrines was that those who were members of WCG

would [be kings and priests] in the Millennium.

-so do you too reject these clear bible verses about this subject

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God [kings and priests]: and [we shall reign on the earth].

Revelation 1:6
And hath made us [kings and priests] unto God and his Father;
to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

-to replace Satan and his demons in ruling over this earth.
For Satan is now the "god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is now
the "prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons
of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2). and the "father" of lies (John 8:44),

"counterfeit Christianity"! The Apostles knew this was going to happen. Paul warned:
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [of Christ's return] will not come unless
the falling away [from the Truth] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.…

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord
will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming"

One, the Christian church is full of incompetent pastors and teachers.

yes I agree the bible says this would happen, want some bible verses?.

If such seekers were exposed to sounder teaching, such as that of RC Sproul,
John MacArthur, David Platt, Tim Keller, Francis Chan, Ravi Zacharias, and many others.

but you would rather have us be taught by man, and not the power of the Holy spirit.

 

[Angela53510]

I think not knowing the Bible because people do not read it cover to cover is a big part of cults. Of course, new believers don't really know the Word, and therefore are easily swayed by false doctrines, supported by verses pulled out of context, and not read in terms of the whole Bible. Probably glamour and flashiness, which reminds them of the world they were saved from also influences new believers to fall into cults.

I really believe that the Holy Spirit teaches and illuminates the Word as we read it. That is why I favour underlining and notes, even in the most expensive Bible. If God shows us a passage that is important, we need to make a note of it.

The first churches I was in had some very wrong doctrines. I won't go so far as to say they were cults, although sometimes they were pretty close to it. Sometimes, it is not the preachers and teachers, but the members of the congregation themselves who exalt leaders far above God.

I remember one woman telling me in my early years she was a fan of "______." In fact, she was not only a "fan" but a devotee. She couldn't stop talking about the leader. I wondered where Jesus had a place in her life. But maybe if that leader had been preaching Christ, and him crucified, she never would have wandered down that road to idolatry.

I do believe that preachers and teachers are to help us understand the Word. But part of that understanding has to be helping us to grow to maturity, so we can teach others. The last church I was in, the pastor went through a "Read the Bible For Life" emphasis. I was stunned at how many people had never read the Bible through before. My husband picked up his Bible and started reading it after many years of just listening on Sunday morning as his only food. That pastor also did a big prayer emphasis, and included mentoring of new believers. But basically, he pointed people to Jesus and the Word.

We do need to grow in grace and truth, focus our hearts and minds on Christ, by reading the whole Word of God, complimented with prayer if we are truly to grow to maturity.

"14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Phil 3:14-16

"to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes." Eph. 4:12-14

 

[sparkman]

No, I don't label every group that observes the Sabbath to be cultic..only the ones that claim it is a condition or requirement for salvation, or a necessary fruit of salvation.

Armstrongism definitely is a cult. Besides denying the Christianity of non Sabbathkeepers, they deny orthodox Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, and claim they are going to be God beings in the resurrection. They also deny the bodily resurrection.

Regarding Seventh Day Adventists, they teach that those who don't observe the Sabbath in the end times will be under the mark of the Beast, but in terms of doctrinal error they are not on the same level as Armstrongites.

By the way, all of your assertions can be addressed but I've done that before and you've simply ignored the answers so it's futile. Obviously Jesus was a Jew born under the Old Covenant. In addition, Jewish Christians continued to observe elements of the Old Covenant due to their preference and its witness value, not for salvation. Those things were not expected of Gentiles, and those Jews in the early Church who tried to inflict such things upon them were addressed in Acts 15 as well as Galatians.

However, you know my position on this so why waste your time arguing about it on this thread? Armstrongism does not hold up to the scrutiny of Scripture.

If anyone wants to research this issue in more depth, I recommend Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff.

yes you should be carefull how you judge and label people,
like every church that teaches the Sabbath you label all cults for doing so.
Jesus keep the Sabbath , so did paul and others through history.

Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference
between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean
and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.


also Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.



-so do you too reject these clear bible verses about this subject

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God [kings and priests]: and [we shall reign on the earth].

Revelation 1:6
And hath made us [kings and priests] unto God and his Father;
to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

-to replace Satan and his demons in ruling over this earth.
For Satan is now the "god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is now
the "prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons
of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2). and the "father" of lies (John 8:44),

"counterfeit Christianity"! The Apostles knew this was going to happen. Paul warned:
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [of Christ's return] will not come unless
the falling away [from the Truth] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.…

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord
will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming"



yes I agree the bible says this would happen, want some bible verses?.



but you would rather have us be taught by man, and not the power of the Holy spirit.

 

[sparkman]

By the way, if anyone wants to know what Armstrongism teaches, I did a previous post on this topic:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rongism-forum-seventh-day-sabbathkeeping.html

I am not sure if prove-all is an Armstrongite but he definitely goes ballistic when I bring it up.

Please note that if he is an Armstrongite, his organization probably denies that any of you are Christian. The position of Worldwide Church of God at the time I belonged was that no one outside of the organization was saved, and definitely not those who didn't keep the Sabbath. They were considered to be unsaved and still in their sins.

I am not sure why he would want to associate with those he considers to be unbelievers anyways.

 

[sparkman]

prove-all, if you deny the Christianity of non-Sabbathkeepers on this forum, why do you come here? If you believe they are following a counterfeit Christianity, why are you here?

yes you should be carefull how you judge and label people,
like every church that teaches the Sabbath you label all cults for doing so.
Jesus keep the Sabbath , so did paul and others through history.

Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference
between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean
and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.


also Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.



-so do you too reject these clear bible verses about this subject

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God [kings and priests]: and [we shall reign on the earth].

Revelation 1:6
And hath made us [kings and priests] unto God and his Father;
to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

-to replace Satan and his demons in ruling over this earth.
For Satan is now the "god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is now
the "prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons
of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2). and the "father" of lies (John 8:44),

"counterfeit Christianity"! The Apostles knew this was going to happen. Paul warned:
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [of Christ's return] will not come unless
the falling away [from the Truth] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.…

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord
will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming"



yes I agree the bible says this would happen, want some bible verses?.



but you would rather have us be taught by man, and not the power of the Holy spirit.

 

[sparkman]

Just so you guys know what prove-all is asserting in his remarks:

The "mystery of lawlessness" or "mystery of iniquity" was an assertion that Herbert Armstrong made that Christianity was supplanted by a false belief system that included changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, amongst other elements of the Old Covenant such as the annual festivals and clean/unclean meat laws.

Somehow this movement is correlated with the Roman Catholic Church ultimately in Armstrong's theology, although the Roman Catholic church didn't exist as we know it until AD 450. I'll leave it to you to figure that one out.

So, in effect, Christianity as we know it today, in Armstrongite theology, is a false Christianity. Those who follow it are unbelievers still in their sin, if he is consistent with Herbert Armstrong's theology. So, everyone outside of his organization, or the Sabbath-keeping population if he is generous, are unsaved and still in their sins if he consistently follows Armstrongite theology.

I held these beliefs so I know what he's talking about. He is probably also trying to scare me with threats of losing my eternal life for commenting on these sorts of things.

 

[prove-all]

prove-all, if you deny the Christianity of non-Sabbathkeepers on this forum, why do you come here? If you believe they are following a counterfeit Christianity, why are you here?

so skip right over the fact that you gave false statement against n.t. teachings

about [would not [be kings and priests] in the Millennium] I posted bible verses to


and where would I have denyed the Christianity of non-Sabbathkeepers on this forum?

I go ballistic when you people defane what is Holy to God, and teach such as sabbath is a cult

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God,
and the faith of Jesus.


​

But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned;
if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity;

but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.​

 

[pwrnJC]

I really like this...if only OBAMA would have followed this little outline before he had to publicly apologize and denounce the words and actions of his former pastor that he had been under for over 20 years.

 

[prove-all]

Just so you guys know what prove-all is asserting in his remarks:

The "mystery of lawlessness" or "mystery of iniquity"

mabe he got that verse from the bible like I did, I never steped foot in his church, you assume alot,

 

[BettyAnn]

How wild, how weird.. It sounds like a demon-possessed gathering.
I wonder what made your husband originally interested in such an odd thing---7th Day Adventism.

He was born in to a very strict mormon family that didn't leave mormonism until he was in high school, so after he was saved he still had a pull towards the prophecy aspect of things. I didn't believe in prophecy but adventism, the way it was explained and how the scriptures were twisted, made it look true. So the two of us went in thinking it was Biblical. We both should have studied more and prayed about it on our own without letting the bad little seeds in our minds.

But at the same time it made us stronger and once burned,twice careful.

 

[sparkman]

One issue is that these groups don't tell you all their teachings prior to getting involved. If they did, you'd be less likely to join them.

He was born in to a very strict mormon family that didn't leave mormonism until he was in high school, so after he was saved he still had a pull towards the prophecy aspect of things. I didn't believe in prophecy but adventism, the way it was explained and how the scriptures were twisted, made it look true. So the two of us went in thinking it was Biblical. We both should have studied more and prayed about it on our own without letting the bad little seeds in our minds.

But at the same time it made us stronger and once burned,twice careful.