The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Eliwood,

Regarding your remarks above, many are addressed in this post.

The Law was a faint glimmer of the holiness of God. Jesus Christ is the full revelation of God's holiness.


Focusing on the Law rather than Jesus Christ is the fundamental error of legalists. They embrace the shadow rather than the reality. Their gospel is all about the Law. Look at Jesus Christ to see what God's holiness is like. He is the standard. One must understand that Jesus was born under the law, so he kept elements of the Old Covenant, including circumcision and days, which do not apply to Christians.

The Law in general gives some guidance in terms of morals, and it is good to use to show a seeker that he is under the condemnation of the Law, so he can be brought to Christ. However, to insist that the law is the ultimate standard for holiness for a believer is not true. Jesus Christ himself is the ultimate standard, as he perfectly reflects God's holiness. The written code of the Law is actually a poor standard for a converted person. If you could keep the Law perfectly, you could still be a nasty, hateful person who would walk by a homeless person with money in your pocket. I suppose, though, if that nasty, hateful person was a Sabbath and festival keeper, in your books, he'd be all right with God, though.

I have heard from knowledgeable sources who know about the Hebrew roots movement is a tendency toward rejecting the deity of Christ amongst some of them. There is a tendency to embrace Unitarian Monotheism as one progresses in this false theology. Worshipping Judaism over Christianity ultimately ends in denying Christianity. I find this significant.


The gospel of Judaizers is all about the law. It is not about Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in him. They may make some token remarks in that regard, but their focus is not on Him.

That is why Paul called it another gospel, and another Jesus. This heresy was rife in Galatia. And since you are preaching it, you'd better be sure you're right, because if not, you are accursed according to these Scriptures.

Galatians is particularly effective for addressing the truth claims of Judaizers. I remember when I attended Worldwide Church of God, a judaizing cult, that the pastor once told about some people in the church who converted to evangelical Christianity through reading the book of Galatians. The pastor said he wasn't going to get into "that old trap of Galatians". Regardless how Judaizers twist Galatians, it is very plain in denying that the Old Covenant applies to New Covenant Christians. READ GALATIANS!!!!!!


Galatians 1: [SUP]6 [/SUP]I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel[SUP]7 [/SUP]not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2: [SUP]15 [/SUP]We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; [SUP]16 [/SUP]yet we know that a person is not justified[SUP][b][/SUP] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[SUP][c][/SUP] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


Galatians 3:
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[SUP][a][/SUP] the flesh? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Did you suffer[SUP][b][/SUP] so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[SUP][c][/SUP] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Galatians 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— [SUP]14 [/SUP]so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[SUP][e][/SUP] through faith.


[SUP]15 [/SUP]To give a human example, brothers:[SUP][f][/SUP] even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [SUP]26 [/SUP]for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[SUP][g][/SUP] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Notice below that those who want to be under the law are sons of the bondswoman, or slave:

Galatians 4
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[SUP][e][/SUP] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now you,[SUP][f][/SUP] brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Notice below that Paul clearly describes the Old Covenant law as bondage. As much as your Hebrew Roots people want to deny this, it's clearly stated here.

Galatians 5 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[SUP][a][/SUP] by the law; you have fallen away from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Notice that Paul points them to love, not to lawkeeping. Lawkeepers can be nasty, hateful people, yet fool themselves into thinking they are righteous.

Galatians [SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

Notice that Paul points these people to moral absolutes and fruits of the Spirit, and not the things that lawkeepers focus upon:

Galatians 5 [SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envy,[SUP][d][/SUP] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Notice also that those who claim to keep the Old Covenant are often liars and hypocrites. I have heard that this issue is rife in the Hebrew Roots movement.

Galatians 6 [SUP]11 [/SUP]See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. [SUP]12 [/SUP]It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

Regards,

Robert
They still have the veil of Moses. . .
 
S

sparkman

Guest
One of the problems with the Armstrongite view of the Day of Atonement is that the other goat was let go free in the wilderness, not bound like Satan will be. Satan is not our sin-bearer. The Armstrongite claim that he did is doing great disrespect to the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.



The Day of Atonement is about Jesus Christ.

The Armstrongite view of the Day of Atonement is false.

The two goats portrayed two different aspects of Christ's sacrifice. The first aspect is that his blood was shed for us. The second aspect is that he bore our sins away, outside of the camp, like the second goat.

I realize that destroys the false chronology that Armstrongites claim, but it's pretty basic.

In addition, the Feast of Tabernacles relates to Jesus becoming flesh and dwelling amongst us. He "tabernacled" amongst us. It points directly to the Incarnation.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
The Law is unchanged!
Was not the law which the people received (Heb 7:11) set aside because
it was weak and useless to make them perfect (Heb 7:18-19; 1Co 9:20)?

Both covenants still exist
Is not the old covenant made worn out, ancient and old (Heb 8:13)?
 
Apr 25, 2015
95
0
0
@ Elin

If Jesus Christ actually did change God's laws, or stop the sacrifices (which he didn't), he wouldn't be Christ. He would be the antichrist. Look at what the prophet Daniel says. His book was written hundreds of years beore Christ was born.

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25)

His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. (Daniel 11:31)


 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
They still have the veil of Moses. . .
@ Elin

If Jesus Christ actually did change God's laws, or stop the sacrifices (which he didn't), he wouldn't be Christ. He would be the antichrist.
Your ignorance of the NT disqualifies your discussion of it.
 
Apr 25, 2015
95
0
0
I think most people agree that if the Bible contradicts itself (which it doesn't), it wouldn't be valid reading....
 
Last edited:
S

sparkman

Guest
This particular teaching concerning the Sabbath was a claim by Ellen G. White, a false prophetess who I believe was probably demon possessed.

Here's a history of the many errors related to Seventh Day Adventism. Armstrongism was affected by them.

The Church had moved from observing the Sabbath long before the Roman Catholic Church as we know it existed. The Roman bishopric was only one of 5 bishoprics of the church. They made bold claims to be the leaders of the church from about 350 forward, but the Roman Catholic church as we know it didn't exist until 450 AD or after...some say as late as 550 AD.

Did the Roman Catholic church claim to change the Sabbath day? Yes, but it makes a lot of claims. It claims Peter was the first Pope too.

Christians were going to the synagogue on Sabbath to hear the Scriptures because there was limited access to Scripture and the Scriptures were read in the synagogues. They met on Sunday to discuss the Scriptures from a Christian context. In about 90 AD, Jews required reading the Eighteen Benedictions which were anti-Christian so that pretty much forced the Christians out of the synagogues. They continued meeting on Sunday as they did before, for the most part. There may have been some that met on Saturday, but the vast majority were meeting on Sunday.

This migration occurred long before Constantine.

Anyways if someone wants to get more detail on Daniel 7:25 they can find it in this pdf form of the book Lying for God. The true fulfillment of the verse is covered there. There's a lot of good material regarding the Sabbath in this book.

Much of what Armstrongism teaches came from Ellen G. White indirectly. Like I said, I believe she was demon possessed. She had an "accompanying angel" and that indicates demonic activity to me. She also blatantly plagiarized the works of other authors and claimed they were direct revelations from God. The books of the authors she plagiarized were found in her estate library. This is covered in this book as well.

http://www.truthorfables.com/LYING FOR GOD.pdf


Here's another one that would have been good for the list:

If Jesus came to change the law of God, why does Daniel 7:25 say the one who will actually try to do this will be the anti-christ?

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25)

Funny, isn't it? :) When the ignorant and unstable say that Jesus Christ changed God's law (which he didn't), they're actually accusing him of the very thing his enemy will do. It's amazing how discieved the world is.

This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels. (revelation 12:9)

 
S

sparkman

Guest
See this book which covers this verse. Sabbathkeepers have imputed a fulfillment in this verse that is not true.


http://www.truthorfables.com/LYING%20FOR%20GOD.pdf

I covered this in the previous post.

If you want to follow the teachings of a demon influenced female prophetess go for it. She's the origin of a lot of these Sabbath teachings.


@ Elin

If Jesus Christ actually did change God's laws, or stop the sacrifices (which he didn't), he wouldn't be Christ. He would be the antichrist. Look at what the prophet Daniel says. His book was written hundreds of years beore Christ was born.

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25)

His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. (Daniel 11:31)


 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
@ Elin

If Jesus Christ actually did change God's laws, or stop the sacrifices (which he didn't), he wouldn't be Christ. He would be the antichrist. Look at what the prophet Daniel says. His book was written hundreds of years beore Christ was born.

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25)

His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. (Daniel 11:31)

I think most people agree that if the Bible contradicts itself (which it doesn't), it wouldn't be valid reading....
Yes, and those who set the Bible against itself (Da 7:25, 11:31 against 1Pe 3:18) ipso facto prove
their misunderstanding of it.

Spare us your ignorance and unbelief.
 
Last edited:
Apr 25, 2015
95
0
0
Yes, and those who set the Bible against itself (Da 7:25, 11:31 against 1Pe 3:18) ipso facto prove
their misunderstanding of it.

Spare us your ignorance and unbelief.
I'm sorry. I was trying to revel some truth that you won't hear anywhere else. You don't need to get defensive. :)
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
Yes, and those who set the Bible against itself (Da 7:25, 11:31 against 1Pe 3:18) ipso facto prove their misunderstanding of it.

Spare us your ignorance and unbelief.
I'm sorry. I was trying to revel some truth that you won't hear anywhere else. You don't need to get defensive. :)
It's not God's truth. . .it's a lie.
 
Last edited:
S

sparkman

Guest
I'm sorry. I was trying to revel some truth that you won't hear anywhere else. You don't need to get defensive. :)
Lots of deceived people think they have "the truth". Ask your friendly neighborhood Jehovah's Witness if they think they have it. Ask the Mormons. Ask the Armstrongites :)
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
Yes, and those who set the Bible against itself (Da 7:25, 11:31 against 1Pe 3:18)
ipso facto prove their misunderstanding of it.


Spare us your ignorance and unbelief.

It's not God's truth. . .it's a lie.
We can agree to disagree. :)
Nope. . .we can agree that you do not agree with the Bible, above.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
One of the things that makes me sick about Sabbath cultists like Armstrongites is their assertion that others outside of their group are unsaved. Many Sabbathkeeping groups teach that. I believed it as an Armstrongite myself, to my shame.

Once I understood that the church was wrong on most of its teachings, I started listening to Christian music other than the inferior stuff that Worldwide Church of God produced.

What I found was that these songwriters reflected a much deeper level of conversion and spiritual understanding than WCG or myself possessed. There was no real focus on Jesus in WCG....our focus was on the Law. The Law is a faint glimmer of God's holiness..Jesus is the fullness of God's holiness.

I realized that their claims concerning other Christians being unsaved was a real joke. In addition, Christians in other countries are being martyred on a regular basis for their faith in Jesus Christ. And, Armstrongites were patting themselves on the back for their obedience to elements of the Old Covenant, claiming that made them special in God's sight.

Declaring such individuals unsaved or spiritually inferior, who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, and being contemptuous of them is the height of ignorance and reflects a Satanic accusation.

For instance, the Coptic Christians that ISIS martyred..who used their last moments to honor God before they were killed...in the theology of Judaizers, they were simply ignorant unbelievers due to their difference in doctrinal understanding, even though they had placed their faith in Jesus Christ and suffered the ultimate sacrifice of their lives.

You know it would be a small thing for me to find some cult to observe the Sabbath and Holy Days with, but I refuse to do that because I would rather be identified with the people I rejected before than Judaizers.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
@Eliwood,

Another major place where your Armstrongite theology falls apart is the idea that you are progressing toward a state of perfection in order to qualify for salvation.

How do you make sense out of the thief on the cross? My guess is that you deny his salvation. That's what I did. I suppose you think that Christ was telling the man that he was going into the "judgment" where he would have a chance to qualify to be saved.

That's not what was going on. He placed his faith in Jesus Christ on the cross. He was saved right then and there. Salvation is by grace through faith alone. Christ has already qualified us for salvation.

You'll never hear that from an Armstrongite because they are "ignorant and unstable" when it comes to salvation matters. They deny the fullness of what was accomplished on the Cross by my Lord and Savior. They add their pathetic works to it. Human pride hates the idea of being helpless and dependent upon Christ and his perfect sacrifice.
 
Apr 25, 2015
95
0
0
Just a reminder. Nobody ever said that obedience to the law is required for salvation. Faith is. Obedience is just a result of your faith. If you say you have faith, but obedience doesn't follow your faith, your faith is useless and dead.

If Jesus Christ is your master, you will do what your master says. And he plainly said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat. I'm gonna have to start repeating this more often, since sparkman keeps making up lies about me, and trying to twist my words.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Just a reminder. Nobody ever said that obedience to the law is required for salvation. Faith is.
Just a reminder. Somebody did say:

@ Elin

If Jesus Christ actually did
change God's laws, or stop the sacrifices (which he didn't), he wouldn't be Christ.
He would be the antichrist.
Makes everything else pale in significance.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
So, if someone is saved and never keeps the Sabbath and Holy Days, would you maintain they are saved?

Just a reminder. Nobody ever said that obedience to the law is required for salvation. Faith is. Obedience is just a result of your faith. If you say you have faith, but obedience doesn't follow your faith, your faith is useless and dead.

If Jesus Christ is your master, you will do what your master says. And he plainly said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat. I'm gonna have to start repeating this more often, since sparkman keeps making up lies about me, and trying to twist my words.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
Please clarify the lies that you think I've told.

I'll address each point. It could be I've misunderstood something, but I have not intentionally misrepresented your position.



Just a reminder. Nobody ever said that obedience to the law is required for salvation. Faith is. Obedience is just a result of your faith. If you say you have faith, but obedience doesn't follow your faith, your faith is useless and dead.

If Jesus Christ is your master, you will do what your master says. And he plainly said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat. I'm gonna have to start repeating this more often, since sparkman keeps making up lies about me, and trying to twist my words.