The heresies of the few

[atwhatcost]

How about getting along with six out of six?

Hey now! That was me that said that. Don't go blaming G8grace for the inconsistencies of AtWhatCost.

I've got four blood brothers and one blood sister, so I don't have to get along with six. Just five. And considering how "well" my oldest brother and I get along (did I just hear another cat and dog fight?), well, sometimes it's God's grace, sometimes it's grinding my teeth to stumps, and sometimes he or I explode. "Oldest brother." Doesn't that explain so much right there?

 

[Elin]

The issue is that only one's denomination accepts one's version of orthodoxy.
Orthodoxy is man being confident in his own understanding of the Word.

No, there is historical Christian orthodoxy.

 

[KennethC]

You're about the right age now to say this to you. (No, that's not the beginning of a put down. lol) When I was young, I studied nothing but the word of God. When I reached the young side of middle age, (roughly your ageish), I realized I'm not very knowledgeable about the times and customs of the Bible, so I needed help studying it. Which then brought me to the obvious next question. "How do I know if these guys know anymore than I know?"

That started something different and something that takes a long time to enjoy. I got into the history of the Bible and the church. There are answers to "how do we know what we know?" You're about the right age to have the patience and fun to go for it and find out. Much easier to get stuff when you know who did what when where and why. I've seen the majesty and the magnificence of God's will passing on to a lot of smart Christian guys through the ages.

I'm on the older side of middle age now and I absolute know I don't have time to learn it all. The destination is God, not learning. The path is filled with as much learning as we can handle though.

Thank you but I have already done a history study on the early church, and dug deep in studies with the Holy Spirits guidance of what the 1st century church taught. I did this because I needed clarification on all the different doctrines floating around and which ones to follow, because at one point I was torn on to which style of church to actually go to that would be closest to the truth.

I was then lead by the Spirit to be non-denominational because of the discrepancies I found in all teaches of the various denominations out there. As I found all of them to have some kind of influence by man's traditions and philosophies in them. I wanted to study His word with none of that outside influence to corrupt my learning. For 3 years of my study I kept myself away from all distractions besides normal everyday family life, and even then I found places I could be alone with just me, God, and the Holy Spirit to study His word.

I have recently for the past 2 years dug into the history of the OT, but as for the NT and the early church years I have done that. Which is why I have mentioned in threads before and gave documents that showed what they taught, and also the Jewish traditions and customs at the time for understanding other scriptures.

Example: One would not know how to interpret John 2:1-11 properly without knowing the Jewish customs when it came to weddings. The custom was they put out the better fermented wine first, then when everybody got drunk they took it away and brought out the lesser quality wine.

 

[Elin]

Well i understand that, but who's interpretation is the truth?, do you see the problem as i see the problem. What makes one Biblical interpretation the truth over anothers interpretation?

Agreement with the whole counsel of God.

 

[Elin]

How can anyone talk about God's truth if there are divisions in Christianity of what God's truth is in the Bible?. The divisions are or what appears to be the interpretations of the Bible, can't all be the truth but if the subject is a stumbling block for you then i'll leave it at that but some might see it as a bit of a copout.

Truth is a person.

 

[Elin]

Then the answer is "through the mind of Christ given us".

Does the Spirit reveal all truths to us instantly? No. There is progressive revelation, as documented in Scripture, and as proven by a Beleiver's growth in Christ and progress toward maturity.

As we are still in bodies of flesh, much is not revealed to us...
and yet many form opinions about topics that are not revealed to mankind.
When people call "heresy" on these topics, I call them out on it.
But the basis of Truth, is what is revealed in Scripture, and unveiled by the Holy Spirit dwelling within the Believer.

The Spirit does not contradict itself, so in debates over theologies,
We must discern what is of Spirit, and what is of flesh,
What is useful, and what is philosophical,
What is concrete, and what is conjecture.

Sometimes, we have to just admit that God has not yet revealed certain things.
Other times, we have to refute those who twist the Word.
And yet more often, we have to edifying those who are misinformed of the Word, or who have misplaced zeal.

And because in Scripture, as well as in orthodox Christianity, God the Holy Spirit is a person, we all him "he," not "it."

 

[Elin]

Here's a hint:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Is this stating total deception?

The "it" is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him of v. 1.

One doesn't become an apostate in any unified area of belief without having first believed something in that area of belief.

Apostates, those who fall away from their profession (not therir root) of faith, are counterfeit believers with no root of rebirth (Lk 8:13).
They fall away for only one reason, they were not reborn by the Holy Spirit.
You are describing the process by which they fall away.

The elect born again are not deceived and do not fall away, for they have the root.

 

[FancyNancy]

Is this stating total deception?

The "it" is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him of v. 1.

You are correct.

Apostates, those who fall away from their profession of faith, are counterfeit believers with no root of rebirth (Lk 8:13).
They fall away for only one reason, they were not reborn by the Holy Spirit.
You are describing the process by which they fall away.

Correct, again!

The elect born again are not deceived and do not fall away.

Yes, "Born again" is the key issue. People can still adhere to the "faith" and not ever have experienced the new birth, but have gotten away with a mental assent to Jesus Christ and the faith, which is truly a false conversion. However, those who have truly experienced the new birth are not among the apostate bunch.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Notice that though they were only taught by those other men if the Holy Spirit, or the Lord Himself guided them to those others. They did not go to them out of their own regard, as is the same standard that is given to us. We are to go by the Holy Spirit's guidance first and foremost, and if the Holy Spirit then guides us to those other people and writings to go by for understanding then that is going by God's will.

And the Holy Spirit guided me to the sound teachers from whom I have learned, and who gave me the desire to confirm what they were telling me. By praying for guidance, by studying the original languages, by seeking Him, I have been led to the truths I affirm. Is that not the proper process, Ken?

I never said 1 John 2:27 forbids learning from men, but what it does do is shows that all truth comes by the Holy Spirit if you are sent to another individual. For even when the original 11 Apostles + Mathias (12th) instructed the likes of Paul, Mark, Luke, Timothy, Barnabas, and others it was the Holy Spirit doing the teaching through them to the others.

This is true -- but Paul was taught by Barnabas, and directly by Jesus Christ as were the remaining Eleven of the original Twelve, which is why he, not Mathias, is the true replacement for Judas. Mathias had followed Christ personally, but we hear nothing of him after the early chapters of Acts, and there is very little historical record of him.

Notice now how I said instructed and not taught, as Jesus made it clear none of us are to consider ourselves another's spiritual teacher.

For one thing, the word most often translated "instruct" as it relates to knowing the Gospel is the Greek kateceo (katecheo) and it means "teach," so there really isn't any differentiation as the one you see.

For we have one teacher and that is God Himself who's Holy Spirit does the teaching through us, and we just give those instructions by the Spirit to others.

I believe you have misunderstood what Jesus said in Matthew 23:8, especially given that He commanded The Twelve to, in fact, teach.

Matthew 28,NASB
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always *, even to the end of the age."
​

In Matthew 23:8, He has just finished a scathing indictment of the Pharisees and the Jewish rabbis, accusing them rightly of using their position to gain personal fame and honor. It is in this context He states "One is your Teacher" -- note the NASB correctly capitalizes the word, which is rendered from the Greek didaskaloß (didaskalos), meaning teacher, but in this context, specifically Christ as the one who guides us to salvation. No one but Him, through the Holy Spirit, can reveal to our spirits and souls the simple truth of faith by His grace. If He meant in Matthew 23:8, "no man can teach you," then He would contradict Himself between the two passages.

There can still be friendly respectful debating between our sides as the bible states we are to act in the faith, as it is only when the demeaning, belittling, and sarcastic attitudes come out that I do not respect nor does the Spirit of God respect that treatment of others. For we are called to love and be kind to all, not to just those who agree with us !!!

I believe in the doctrine I teach because I have found over 25 scriptures in the NT that sides with it, and I was lead to those scriptures by the Holy Spirit.

Brother Ken, when I go to the effort to show you how you might possibly be lifting those verses out of context, do you consider what I say? I truly hope and pray you do.

I know He can not lie or lead a person into false teachings, so what He has shown me can not be a lie. For He has guided my steps to preach and teach in the same manner as Apostle Paul did, as Paul gave most of his warnings to believers.

So that implies that I am not following the Holy Spirit, for we both know He will not present "two different truths." It would be my impression, then, that you do not believe I am led by Him, and given that I absolutely know that I am, how can we have real fellowship? We don't believe the same things about Christ. How do we resolve that?

The Holy Spirit has opened my eyes to a lot of God's truth in the Word, and some of it surprises me how people can so easily miss them as the scripture is clear in what they say.

I too am amazed when we can read the same Scripture and totally understand it differently. Again, one of us is wrong. What do we do?

Such as Revelation 2:13 and 13:2 !!!

Is the mention of those Scriptures at the end of this discussion really productive? It would appear they are used as accusations, but I could be wrong about that. Let me know in what context you use them, please.

 

[Elin]

Interpreting Scripture is not academic. It is spiritual.
Google cannot edifying your soul, only your mind.

We DO need to reinvent the wheel, in a sense,
proving the basics to ourselves by leaning upon God alone, rather than the interpretive works of men.

If you are comfortable relying on the understanding of man, then stick to orthodoxy.
If you are only comfortable relying upon God and His Word, cast off the chains, and clear your preconceived notions about what the Word says, and read it with an open heart.

Orthodoxy closes the heart, because it tells us that it knows the answers.

Truth is not a grab bag. . .

The same God who gave us the immutable laws of the Universe gave us his immutable Truth.

It is knowable (not guessable) in the context and in the agreement of all Scripture.

 

[Elin]

I don't ever argue with the Lord, d!

Jesus Himself tells us about a coming apostasy. Unbelievers cannot be apostates. So, a balanced view of all scripture is important, isn't it?

No, "balance" is not a principle of Scripture nor hermeneutics.

 

[atwhatcost]

Thank you but I have already done a history study on the early church, and dug deep in studies with the Holy Spirits guidance of what the 1st century church taught. I did this because I needed clarification on all the different doctrines floating around and which ones to follow, because at one point I was torn on to which style of church to actually go to that would be closest to the truth.

I was then lead by the Spirit to be non-denominational because of the discrepancies I found in all teaches of the various denominations out there. As I found all of them to have some kind of influence by man's traditions and philosophies in them. I wanted to study His word with none of that outside influence to corrupt my learning. For 3 years of my study I kept myself away from all distractions besides normal everyday family life, and even then I found places I could be alone with just me, God, and the Holy Spirit to study His word.

I have recently for the past 2 years dug into the history of the OT, but as for the NT and the early church years I have done that. Which is why I have mentioned in threads before and gave documents that showed what they taught, and also the Jewish traditions and customs at the time for understanding other scriptures.

Example: One would not know how to interpret John 2:1-11 properly without knowing the Jewish customs when it came to weddings. The custom was they put out the better fermented wine first, then when everybody got drunk they took it away and brought out the lesser quality wine.

Wait? That's not a modern American custom? I've been gypped at weddings. Come to think of it, I gypped at my own wedding. lol

 

[Sirk]

Wait? That's not a modern American custom? I've been gypped at weddings. Come to think of it, I gypped at my own wedding. lol

Whatever. You got exactly what you deserved! Lol. Jk.

 

[Elin]

Apostasy means those who have taking the gospel message of Christ and turned it into a license to sin.
They allow people to do things in the faith that the bible clearly says we are not to do, and they also add things to have to do that the bible does not say we have to do. Such as forbidding to marry, eating certain foods, having to obey written ordinances of the OT Mosaic laws that do not apply.

Apostasy is not about unbelievers who have never come to or know of the faith in Jesus, it is about those who corrupt the true gospel message into allowing lewdness.

And about those of counterfeit faith falling away (1Jn 2:19), which shows their profession was of a counterfeit faith only.

 

[atwhatcost]

Whatever. You got exactly what you deserved! Lol. Jk.

(Not really a problem. Dad bought the champagne for ours, and got to take home 2/3rds of the case, since most of the people we invited were our church and they weren't drinkers. For me, it's not a religious reason I don't drink. I finally figured out if I have to acquire a taste for it, it's probably not worth the time to acquire the taste. i.e. Pepsi and Coke taste better. lol)

 

[FancyNancy]

No, "balance" is not a principle of Scripture nor hermeneutics.

Balance comes from knowing the word and the Author of it.

 

[kedge]

Truth is a person.

It can mean anything anyone wants it to mean i suppose.

 

[Elin]

Many would disagree with that, one would be ignorant to say that Christianity is not divided on the Biblical text/doctrine and what its true meaning really is.

True Christians are not divided on the orthodox fundamentals of Christianity:

inspiration of Scripture (God-breathed),
deity of Christ,
Christ's virgin birth and miracles,
Christ's penal death for sin (Ro 3:25),
Christ's physical resurrection and personal return.

 

[FancyNancy]

It can mean anything anyone wants it to mean i suppose.

That isn't true. Jesus Christ is Truth, the only way of salvation.

John 14:6
Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

 

[prove-all]

The elect born again are not deceived and do not fall away, for they have the root.

Here is the patience of the saints:

here are they that keep the commandments of God,

and the faith of Jesus.​