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A
My reaction in no particular order:
1. Jesus Movement reach the 70's too. Both hubby and I came in toward the end. And very odd, he was a hippie as were his Christian friends, but they through-pure-naivety took to the closest church they could find. The AoG. Quite the freak out for some of the members, but the pastor was willing, so they blended mostly, and some of the middle-class folks left. (Mom wouldn't let me be a hippie. lol)
2. (Don't drink anything while reading the following, or something might come out your nose. lol) Honestly, when I saw your post, right before I had more stuff to do, I thought, "I know he wants me to be diplomatic, but I'm no diplomat. And, I'm gonna be blunt sometime because it would take forever to get to my point being all diplomatic." Did you get that humor? Yeah, me? Worried about taking forever to get to a point. lol But, honestly, if I had to go all diplomatic my post would take 3 times as long, so I was worried about that, but...
3. What you say I have to do anyway. I'm reformed (the word we prefer compared to Calvinist), believe modern End Times isn't really a thing biblically speaking, not a 6,000 y.o. earth believer, (not an evolutionist or "billions and billions of years" believer either, so I really don't have the right hole for my particular peg), and I'm fluctuating on the gifts thing, in an equally bizarre way. But, hey, I really don't have much against folks who believe other ways. Either it simply doesn't matter, or it does but not enough to end fellowship. So, yo, much easier than what I thought you were going for.
4. But I do have a question about this paragraph.
It's a problem brought to me directly from my upbringing. The RCC. You ask a Catholic if they believe all that, and they won't bat an eye while saying they do. BUT, they don't. Ex Cathedra is equal to Bible. And Salvation isn't really by faith, it's by works -- whether the confessional, the penance, or praying to knock people out of purgatory. So, what if someone says they believe the essentials, but don't?
So, how to deal with what they say isn't what they mean?
1. Jesus Movement reach the 70's too. Both hubby and I came in toward the end. And very odd, he was a hippie as were his Christian friends, but they through-pure-naivety took to the closest church they could find. The AoG. Quite the freak out for some of the members, but the pastor was willing, so they blended mostly, and some of the middle-class folks left. (Mom wouldn't let me be a hippie. lol)
2. (Don't drink anything while reading the following, or something might come out your nose. lol) Honestly, when I saw your post, right before I had more stuff to do, I thought, "I know he wants me to be diplomatic, but I'm no diplomat. And, I'm gonna be blunt sometime because it would take forever to get to my point being all diplomatic." Did you get that humor? Yeah, me? Worried about taking forever to get to a point. lol But, honestly, if I had to go all diplomatic my post would take 3 times as long, so I was worried about that, but...
3. What you say I have to do anyway. I'm reformed (the word we prefer compared to Calvinist), believe modern End Times isn't really a thing biblically speaking, not a 6,000 y.o. earth believer, (not an evolutionist or "billions and billions of years" believer either, so I really don't have the right hole for my particular peg), and I'm fluctuating on the gifts thing, in an equally bizarre way. But, hey, I really don't have much against folks who believe other ways. Either it simply doesn't matter, or it does but not enough to end fellowship. So, yo, much easier than what I thought you were going for.
4. But I do have a question about this paragraph.
It's a problem brought to me directly from my upbringing. The RCC. You ask a Catholic if they believe all that, and they won't bat an eye while saying they do. BUT, they don't. Ex Cathedra is equal to Bible. And Salvation isn't really by faith, it's by works -- whether the confessional, the penance, or praying to knock people out of purgatory. So, what if someone says they believe the essentials, but don't?
So, how to deal with what they say isn't what they mean?
A
Oh, that's easy. First give up the cigar. It's stinky. Then either chew tobacco or smoke. Problem solved. lol
Nah, in reality I haven't had anyone blast me on here because I smoke. I'd go with the usual answer, "Okay, not what else do you want to talk about?" If they keep doing it, off to iggy until they cool down.
Nah, in reality I haven't had anyone blast me on here because I smoke. I'd go with the usual answer, "Okay, not what else do you want to talk about?" If they keep doing it, off to iggy until they cool down.
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, theevangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
You talk very worldly. You use the word essential to define the word doctrine. First off unity is a definition of one and only one doctrine. This is the Word of God. In it is unity.
As far as using the words essential doctorin I assume you mean for our salvation. Well since when do I need to believe in this unbiblical trinity crap to be essentially saved as you appear to proclaim?
As far as using the words essential doctorin I assume you mean for our salvation. Well since when do I need to believe in this unbiblical trinity crap to be essentially saved as you appear to proclaim?
V
I think the major question we need to address is, what is more important to us as Christians? Glorifying God in all we do, or putting the "unrighteous" in their place? Though trite and overworked, the way to arrive at the answer is ask the cliché-question, "What would Jesus do?"
Yes, He did call the Pharisees a "brood of vipers." But He is God the Son. He has the right to make that statement. By what right do we, who also live in error and occasional sin, have to make that statement? While it can be, to some extent, accurately said that we have a corner on truth, do we deliver it by force of words, or with love and non-judgment?
It should be obvious to anyone who has seen my posts since I've been here that I have long been convinced that force of words is the answer. It grows painfully obvious that it does not. I agree, even the last two days, the temptation to lash out is still present, and I've edited a number of posts before actually sending them off into the ether.
I think Paul's words are an excellent comfort to us, as it seems perhaps he knew first-hand of the exact dilemma we are going through now.
Love does not ignore truth. It promotes it, even in the face of adversity.
One would think, right? Our problems develop when we rise up and admit our own shortcomings and see others fail to recognize their own. We can't take the speck out of others' eyes, even if we have removed the log from our own. All we can do is reach out and offer help with their speck. They must accept our offer, and to to that, they also have to realize they have the speck and that it needs removal. If they refuse to acknowledge the speck, they obviously don't believe they need our assistance.
Yes, He did call the Pharisees a "brood of vipers." But He is God the Son. He has the right to make that statement. By what right do we, who also live in error and occasional sin, have to make that statement? While it can be, to some extent, accurately said that we have a corner on truth, do we deliver it by force of words, or with love and non-judgment?
It should be obvious to anyone who has seen my posts since I've been here that I have long been convinced that force of words is the answer. It grows painfully obvious that it does not. I agree, even the last two days, the temptation to lash out is still present, and I've edited a number of posts before actually sending them off into the ether.
I think Paul's words are an excellent comfort to us, as it seems perhaps he knew first-hand of the exact dilemma we are going through now.
1 Corinthians 13, NASB
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8(a) Love never fails;
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8(a) Love never fails;
Love does not ignore truth. It promotes it, even in the face of adversity.
One would think, right? Our problems develop when we rise up and admit our own shortcomings and see others fail to recognize their own. We can't take the speck out of others' eyes, even if we have removed the log from our own. All we can do is reach out and offer help with their speck. They must accept our offer, and to to that, they also have to realize they have the speck and that it needs removal. If they refuse to acknowledge the speck, they obviously don't believe they need our assistance.
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Step 2: Fill with Christian love and fellowship as directed by the Holy Spirit
(problem solved)
One would think, right? Our problems develop when we rise up and admit our own shortcomings and see others fail to recognize their own. We can't take the speck out of others' eyes, even if we have removed the log from our own. All we can do is reach out and offer help with their speck. They must accept our offer, and to to that, they also have to realize they have the speck and that it needs removal. If they refuse to acknowledge the speck, they obviously don't believe they need our assistance.
True, but I am only addressing the "promotion of unity."
V
[QUOTE=p_rehbein;2139290]True, but I am only addressing the "promotion of unity."[/QUOTE]That is also what I am addressing. Simply removing the hate/arrogance/pride/etc. from one's own heart doesn't promote unity, though. That was my point (which I see now I didn't do a very good job of developing).
We can't achieve unity just by making personal changes, we have to advocate for change across the board -- literally.
We can't achieve unity just by making personal changes, we have to advocate for change across the board -- literally.
I am not sure we really understand unity. Jesus on the mount of transfiguration talks to Moses and Elijah.
Have you ever wondered why? Because there is not one solution to our walk, it is about community and agreement. Jesus emphasis is when two or three are gathered in my name etc.
We need to agree the basics of repentance, trust in the cross, who Jesus was, how salvation works, what we are as people, what the walk actually is, how we commune with the Lord, what our authority is and how we exercise it.
The problem is if we add more than this, we cannot go across many boundaries outside our denominations.
If we cannot agree these basics, we have no common message to share. I worked with Operation Mobilisation as a youngster and we managed to do this across pentcostals, bretheren, all the major evangelical groups except the extreme closed ones, and had good contact with churches outside our normal group. So it can work.
I do not think it works with WOF groups, because their whole spiritual walk theology is different. You tend to be called unsaved or worse, so there is little unity there.
Have you ever wondered why? Because there is not one solution to our walk, it is about community and agreement. Jesus emphasis is when two or three are gathered in my name etc.
We need to agree the basics of repentance, trust in the cross, who Jesus was, how salvation works, what we are as people, what the walk actually is, how we commune with the Lord, what our authority is and how we exercise it.
The problem is if we add more than this, we cannot go across many boundaries outside our denominations.
If we cannot agree these basics, we have no common message to share. I worked with Operation Mobilisation as a youngster and we managed to do this across pentcostals, bretheren, all the major evangelical groups except the extreme closed ones, and had good contact with churches outside our normal group. So it can work.
I do not think it works with WOF groups, because their whole spiritual walk theology is different. You tend to be called unsaved or worse, so there is little unity there.
J
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Ezekiel 22:28 And her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, “Thus says the Lord GOD,” when the LORD has not spoken.
Jeremiah 14:14 And the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds.”
Jeremiah 23:21 I did not send the prophets, yet they ran; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied.
Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Matthew 15:14 ...And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.