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G
Then Cup, What do you do with these verses?
The Valley of Dry Bones
Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Can These Bones Live?
Ezekiel 37:2-3 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
The Bones in Prophecy
Ezekiel 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
God’s Physical and Spiritual Promise to Restore Israel
Ezekiel 37:4-6 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath (ruwach-spiritual) to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, (physical) and put breath in you, (Neshamah-Gen 2:7)) and ye shall live; (rebirth) and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
Alive Again, and Standing Strong
Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Whom do the Dry Bones Symbolize?
Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
God Promised to Bring Israel Back to the Land
Ezekiel 37:12-13 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD
Israel was reborn, physically, on May 14, 1948, at 4:00 p.m
On may 14,1948,the Declaration of Independence was read by David Ben Gurion who became the first Prime Minister of Israel.It is said that the Bible verses Ezek.37:1-23 have been read during the ceremony on that day.It is believed that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled.
Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Ezekiel 28:25-26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.
And are you too, seriously saying that God does NOT deal with different people in different ways in different stages of history?
Have YOU, also, never read the Bible?
The Valley of Dry Bones
Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Can These Bones Live?
Ezekiel 37:2-3 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
The Bones in Prophecy
Ezekiel 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
God’s Physical and Spiritual Promise to Restore Israel
Ezekiel 37:4-6 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath (ruwach-spiritual) to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, (physical) and put breath in you, (Neshamah-Gen 2:7)) and ye shall live; (rebirth) and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
Alive Again, and Standing Strong
Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Whom do the Dry Bones Symbolize?
Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
God Promised to Bring Israel Back to the Land
Ezekiel 37:12-13 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD
Israel was reborn, physically, on May 14, 1948, at 4:00 p.m
On may 14,1948,the Declaration of Independence was read by David Ben Gurion who became the first Prime Minister of Israel.It is said that the Bible verses Ezek.37:1-23 have been read during the ceremony on that day.It is believed that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled.
Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Ezekiel 28:25-26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.
And are you too, seriously saying that God does NOT deal with different people in different ways in different stages of history?
Have YOU, also, never read the Bible?
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wow and wow and wow again! 63 pages on when we will be taken out of here. I believe that since this thread has started that I have changed my views on the rapture theory. and I have come to the conclusion that the confusion is in most part is because of blinders that we have put on ourselfs because of our beliefs on certain doctrines , or on this subject certain events. I am a die hard pre-tribber, but though this thread have changed my opinion, on the people that will be raptured out, 1 Thes. 4:13-18 says that those that are asleep in Christ. and I believe that this is only intended for the Church, and this is not a time even for the disciples, but only for the Church/Bride of Christ. for the disciples were not and can not be part of the Gentile Bride, but rather were told that they would sit on the 12 thrones of Israel, judging Israel. now paul who taught us 1 thes. 4:13-18 was not a true Jew, by his own admission, within scripture. for the old testament priest were removed from office if they could not prove their lineage. so paul as he say that we which remain, will be part of the Church/bride, so I believe that I can back my belief that there will be one pre-trib rapture for the bride, and two resurrections, pre-tribber who can not reconize that there are seperate events or taken up, and believe that the rapture is for all believers which we have been taught, will have to stand back a minute, and explain what Jesus meant when He said:
Joh 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
Or you will need to reconize that He is speaking to the Jews of that day (that every one which seeth the Son), Think on the verse when He said blessed are they that have seen and believed , but more blessed are those that have not seen but have yet believed. another thought that helps here, are if all believers( Jews and gentiles) are part of the Church, then where does the wedding party (the guest) come from.
here are the scriptures the bride is made ready:
Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
then the tribulation saints those that refused the mark of the beast and was beheaded, are raised ( which is the first resurrection) this could be the wedding party.
Re 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.Re 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,Re 20:3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.Re 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
then the rest are raised after the thousand year reigned:
Re 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Joh 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
Or you will need to reconize that He is speaking to the Jews of that day (that every one which seeth the Son), Think on the verse when He said blessed are they that have seen and believed , but more blessed are those that have not seen but have yet believed. another thought that helps here, are if all believers( Jews and gentiles) are part of the Church, then where does the wedding party (the guest) come from.
here are the scriptures the bride is made ready:
Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
then the tribulation saints those that refused the mark of the beast and was beheaded, are raised ( which is the first resurrection) this could be the wedding party.
Re 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.Re 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,Re 20:3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.Re 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
then the rest are raised after the thousand year reigned:
Re 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
C
Pastor Keith--how do you reconcile that view of the Bride with the end of Revelation. When John is told "I will show you the Bride" (21:9), he is then taken to see the New Jerusalem, which has the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on its gates (21:12) and the names of the twelve apostle on the goundation stones (21:14)?
I had with held any opinion on the rapture as I had not fully read revelations. But I came to the conclusion that a saw no evidence of it except that one of the churches was to be protected. But all else as thaddaeus pointed out showed the faithfull suffering to the end.
Im trying to figure out where any was able to find scripture that supported rapture.
Unless there is such hidden in the words of revelation.
My greater concern now is for those that hold forth hope in this, and why.
I may need glasses but I saw only those that had suffered being spared the second tribulation.
Please fill in the holes for me if I have missunderstood.
God bless, pickles
Im trying to figure out where any was able to find scripture that supported rapture.
Unless there is such hidden in the words of revelation.
My greater concern now is for those that hold forth hope in this, and why.
I may need glasses but I saw only those that had suffered being spared the second tribulation.
Please fill in the holes for me if I have missunderstood.
God bless, pickles
because the Bride was made ready before the resurrection of the trib saints, do a study a on Jewish wedding where that the bride is set aside some time before the wedding sperate from anyone else and is cleansed and anniotted and made ready for the groom, is the bride ready now? She has been promised to be the bride , but no way is the bride ready now, would it make any sense to call the wedding party into the wedding and have them sit around for weeks then call the Bride out seperate her and have her made ready for the groom?
Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
the marriage is ready( call in the wedding party), for the Bride hath made herself ready
Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
the marriage is ready( call in the wedding party), for the Bride hath made herself ready
just a small heads up, just because the word "church" is not mentioned in Revelation 9-21 does not automatically mean it's not being talked about...
Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, Jude, or Romans 1-15 do not mention the word "church", but that does not mean that the church is not being described, or being talked about... all that is is wishful thinking and more eisogesis
Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, Jude, or Romans 1-15 do not mention the word "church", but that does not mean that the church is not being described, or being talked about... all that is is wishful thinking and more eisogesis
M
Aside from pulling verses violently out of context with a complete disregard for the subject and object of a passage to support their vain theories, the rapurists also make fundamental Scriptural errors or false statements that are easily identified by even Sunday-school students; The rapture doctors seemingly blindly error by saying that the Church must be 'Raptured out' because it isn't mentioned after Revelation 4:1 (which in reality, verse 4:1 isn't even talking about the Church at all, nor a rapture of same, it is talking about John, "the Disciple Christ loved," the writer of the book of Revelation:
Rev 4:1 (John speaking)
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
By their own boast this is one of the rapture doctor's 'strongest' and most repeated 'documentations' for the rapture doctrine. They even state that this is the last words recorded to the Rapture 'saints'. Ok, lets pop this one on our Sunday-school students: "Who is it in the above Scripture that the voice from Heaven is calling to "come up hither"?"
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
By their own boast this is one of the rapture doctor's 'strongest' and most repeated 'documentations' for the rapture doctrine. They even state that this is the last words recorded to the Rapture 'saints'. Ok, lets pop this one on our Sunday-school students: "Who is it in the above Scripture that the voice from Heaven is calling to "come up hither"?"
Choices:
#1. St. John, the author of the verse, or,
#2. The entire God worshipping, Jesus Christ loving Christian end-time Church?
#1. St. John, the author of the verse, or,
#2. The entire God worshipping, Jesus Christ loving Christian end-time Church?
Answer:
The correct answer is number One (#1), St. John, the one doing the writing, the one who calls himself "I," and "Me." Any Sunday-school student who got this wrong should go directly to the back of the class! When someone writes "I," or "Me," they mean themselves.
Any time a rapturist sees a term like "up," or "rise," or "gather," or "clouds," or basically anything 'atmospheric' or 'airy,' they get all 'giddy' inside and think that it is speaking of their escape from prophecy. God doesn't remove us, He prepares us! Are you prepared?
Any time a rapturist sees a term like "up," or "rise," or "gather," or "clouds," or basically anything 'atmospheric' or 'airy,' they get all 'giddy' inside and think that it is speaking of their escape from prophecy. God doesn't remove us, He prepares us! Are you prepared?
Proof the church is mentioned after Rev4:1
Rev 22:16 (Jesus' last recorded words!)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Whoops! Didn't Jesus know that the churches don't need to hear the testimony of those things in the book of Revelation because they will be 'raptured away' before they come to pass? I mean, if I thought I was going to be raptured somewhere by someone, I would certainly hope that he knew that He was supposed to come to Rapture me - or else I'm in a world of trouble, aren't I! I am being somewhat sarcastic here, but really, the rapture doctrine is such a stretch of the imagination that one struggles to comprehend how good intelligent Christians can possibly base the welfare of their very souls upon it. Come-on Christian, wake up, You are being deceived! And don't blame God, He warned you in Scripture after Scripture...but many would rather listen to some man, some false preacher/teacher from the pulpits of the wholly corrupted and beguiled churches of the modern world.
(The statement "Surely I come quickly" Rev 22:20 are not Christ's last appearing words in the Bible, but it is actually a quote by John back from Rev 22:7 &12.)
And then there is the mention in Rev 17:5-6 of the Saints that were martyred, what about them? Are they not of the Church which supposedly is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four? Come on Christian - wake up. And what about the: "and their fellowservants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" Rev 6:11, are they not of the 'Church'?
Or: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" Rev 7:13 , are you prepared to say that these who overcame the Great Tribulation are not considered the end time Church on earth either?!?
Or, try this one on for size, is this not after Revelation chapter four: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" {Rev 9:4}, if they can only hurt those on the earth without the seal of God then it logically stands to reason that there are those on earth who do have the seal of God on the earth which they are chastened not to injure; these are NOT the 144,000, this is chronologically before the sealing of the 144,000, the 144,000 are not sealed for another five months yet. So, are these not of the Church that supposedly isn't mentioned?!?
Or what about this Scripture, is this not the Church??? Who are these saints, spoken of prior to the end of the earth, whom are on the earth during the 6th and 7th trump (the last) if not true believers, and if true believers then are they not the Church? You remember what a church is - it is simply a body of believers not having walls or name: "14 The second woe is past [6th trump]; and, behold, the third woe [7th trump] cometh quickly...15 And the seventh angel sounded [7th trump]; and there were great voices in heaven...17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned...18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" Rev 11:14-18.This is not speaking of the Great White Throne Judgment day in Rev 20:11-15 which isn't for at least another 1000 years (after the Millennium), this is the Second Advent of Christ when He comes with a rod of iron and great fury and wrath Rev19:11-21
And what about Rev 12:14? Do you think that the 'woman' is not the Church on earth after Revelation chapter four? Come-on Christian, wake up, you will be here during the Great Tribulation, the question is will you be prepared to stand!:
Rev 12:14-17
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Still not enough proof for you that the Church is mentioned after Revelation chapter four? Well then, try this one on for size: 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Do you need more? here's more: "12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Rev 14:12-13.
Or how about this: "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God" Rev 15:2.
Gee, who do you think these over-comers were on the earth during the time of the beast (antichrist) and the time of the taking of the mark of the beast?!? Who resists satan but the true Church of Jesus Christ!
I've got more but I'm gonna keep this short.
C
I don't really care that you don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Your stated purpose is to convert pre to whatever it is that you are. Let me give you some advice--you won't make much headway by beginning calling us idiots or ignorant or questioning our faith or walk. You have a problem with my life--tell me what it really is. You don't me but you assume that I am sleeping at the wheel because I think Jesus is coming back at a different point in prophetic history than you do. So lay off the condesending attitude and the sarcasm. A lady asked a question and I answered it. That's all.
M
I didn't call you or anyone a name. Actually, this post was in no way a direct response to anything you posted. This was a response to a conversation I was having with someone else before you ever mentioned Rev 4:1 today.
As you can see I posted this 16 hours ago, before you ever brought up Rev 4:1.
miktre quote:
"You are going have to be more specific here as to what the problem is. I realize for the rapture doctrine to work the church must completely be gone at Rev 4:1. That simply isn't so and when I get home tonight I'm going to post the scripture as to why this can't be so."
As you can see I posted this 16 hours ago, before you ever brought up Rev 4:1.
miktre quote:
"You are going have to be more specific here as to what the problem is. I realize for the rapture doctrine to work the church must completely be gone at Rev 4:1. That simply isn't so and when I get home tonight I'm going to post the scripture as to why this can't be so."