Sabbath Law and Rest

[sparkman]

As I have said, I have no issue with those who keep the Sabbath and festivals if they don't claim they are a requirement or condition of salvation, or do not claim they are a necessary fruit of salvation.

Messianic Jews observe some of the same customs in order to maintain their social connections with unsaved and saved family members, just like Jews of the apostolic era did.

Need to? No.
Get to? Yes.

I am a current Sabbath/Festival Keeper.

It is a privilege and a blessing to walk in the way God wants His people to walk.
It is even more of a blessing to have forgiveness when I don't.

The problem isn't God's commands.
The problem is how we respond to them.

 

[Grandpa]

As I have said, I have no issue with those who keep the Sabbath and festivals if they don't claim they are a requirement or condition of salvation, or do not claim they are a necessary fruit of salvation.

Messianic Jews observe some of the same customs in order to maintain their social connections with unsaved and saved family members, just like Jews of the apostolic era did.

People who are jews that convert to christianity and still celebrate the way they always celebrated I wouldn't have a problem with either.

Its like me and my family celebrating christmas and easter still after coming to Christ. Its still the same celebration, it just means something completely different now.

Same with the festivals and feasts. There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating them. Unless you think you are doing it because of your 'obedience'. Then you begin to stumble.

Romans 9:31-32
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[sparkman]

Yes that is why I used the phrase "necessary fruit of salvation".

Some Hebrew Roots people claim that you may not be observing the Torah when first saved but will start to observe it by necessity. Others say that non Torah observant people may be saved but less spiritual.

It's obvious that all Christians should be concerned about any moral absolutes regardless, and that the issues of physical circumcision, Sabbath keeping, festival observance, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing are usually the focus of their claims.

I am not sure why those elements tend to be the focus though.

People who are jews that convert to christianity and still celebrate the way they always celebrated I wouldn't have a problem with either.

Its like me and my family celebrating christmas and easter still after coming to Christ. Its still the same celebration, it just means something completely different now.

Same with the festivals and feasts. There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating them. Unless you think you are doing it because of your 'obedience'. Then you begin to stumble.

Romans 9:31-32
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[Grandpa]

Some Hebrew Roots people claim that you may not be observing the Torah when first saved but will start to observe it by necessity. Others say that non Torah observant people may be saved but less spiritual.

The Torah is beautiful.

But only by the Light of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Spirit.

Not in the flesh suggesting a carnal commandment.

I suppose even in the flesh it is beautiful, but more in a sad way. A condemning way. Like how death can be beautiful sometimes.

Its much better to not be under condemnation, in Christ.

 

[JaumeJ]

For many the Torah is beautiful because we may now read it without the veil of Moses. All is foretold in the Torah, and it is good, amen.

 

[sparkman]

Assayah is Eliwood under yet another username.

He used this same answer and displayed the same attitude under past usernames. Again, this one gets reported.

The conclusion of that dispute, if you allow the bible to interpret itself instead of inserting your own interpretation into it, was that the gentiles be issued 4 crucial commandments from the torah to start with, and learn the rest gradually since Moses was being taught in the synagogues every sabbath.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

If you ignore the part about Moses being taught in the synnagogues every sabbath, you would have to come to the ludicrous conclusion that the apostles only meant for the gentiles to keep those 4 starting commandments, and ignore all others. Meaning it would be ok to murder, steal, etc. All arguments about the torah being abolished are just as weak as this one. They require you to pluck small snippets out of Paul's letters, quote them out of context, and make up your own interpretation for them.

 

[phil112]

For many the Torah is beautiful because we may now read it without the veil of Moses. All is foretold in the Torah, and it is good, amen.

You really need to study the 3rd chapter of 2nd Corinthians.

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

You cling to a beauty that has been done away with while ignoring an even greater beauty that is the ministering of the spirit. How smart is that?

 

[john832]

You really need to study the 3rd chapter of 2nd Corinthians.


You cling to a beauty that has been done away with while ignoring an even greater beauty that is the ministering of the spirit. How smart is that?

And Paul said this in his defense to Felix...

Act 24:1 And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul.

Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Act 24:6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.

Act 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
Act 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
Act 24:12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The would include Ex 20:8.

Later, when Paul answered to Festus, this ensued...

Act 25:1 Now when Festus was come into the province, after three days he ascended from Caesarea to Jerusalem.
Act 25:2 Then the high priest and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him,
Act 25:3 And desired favour against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem, laying wait in the way to kill him.
Act 25:4 But Festus answered, that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself would depart shortly thither.
Act 25:5 Let them therefore, said he, which among you are able, go down with me, and accuse this man, if there be any wickedness in him.
Act 25:6 And when he had tarried among them more than ten days, he went down unto Caesarea; and the next day sitting on the judgment seat commanded Paul to be brought.

Act 25:7 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.

First of all, notice they could NOT prove any of their accusations.. Now notice what Paul says...

Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Paul said that he had not offended the Law of the Jews, nor offended the Temple. That would have to include the Sabbath.

But oh well, let's just ignore the writings of Paul that don't say what we want them to say.

 

[phil112]

..............................
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

.....................................................

But oh well, let's just ignore the writings of Paul that don't say what we want them to say.

I too believe all the things written in the law. I also believe that Christ brought grace so that I would be free from the law...as Paul so often explains.
You are a foolish person. You accuse me of ignoring scripture, which I have never done, and you misinterpret scripture to try to make a moronic point.

Explain away the 3rd chapter of 2 Corinthians. I can't wait to hear you do it.

 

[john832]

I too believe all the things written in the law. I also believe that Christ brought grace so that I would be free from the law...as Paul so often explains.
You are a foolish person. You accuse me of ignoring scripture, which I have never done, and you misinterpret scripture to try to make a moronic point.

Explain away the 3rd chapter of 2 Corinthians. I can't wait to hear you do it.

I am assuming you are speaking of this passage...

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

So, when the veil covers one's heart, he cannot understand the truth of God, but when the veil is lifted, he then understands when Moses is read. Where does it say that the writings of Moses are done away?

What it really says is that when the veil is lifted one can understand when Moses is read. Actually, Jesus Christ said the same thing...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

All are NOT called at this time...

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Now Christ had already come the first time, this is speaking of the Second Coming when the blindness would be lifted from Israel. Please note that this is future...

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

He is writing this in future tense. Everyone is not called at this time...

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The idea that salvation is open to all and everyone must get saved right now is the basis of the SDA false doctrine of the great Controversy which nearly all churchianity has bought into.

 

[john832]

There is coming a time for majority of mankind to be given their opportunity, it is at the Last Great Day...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The Books of the Bible are opened and those who have not had an opportunity, will have. The timeframe is AFTER the Millennium.

 

[sparkman]

Let me clarify this. john832 is an Armstrongite. He has attacked me in the past since I am a former Armstrongite and spoke about my deliverance from the false teachings. I don't know which one of the splinter groups he belongs to.

Amongst Armstrongite teachings are the claim that all other Christians are so-called Christians, which means he would deny your salvation as a normal, non-Sabbathkeeping Christian. He believes only a few "elect" people truly understand what the Bible teaches, which is Armstrong's false gospel.

Those elements include the belief that converted believers (the elect) are Gods in embryo, and at the resurrection they will be born into the God family. with the full attributes of deity.

They also deny the Trinity.

The elements of the Old Covenant that they typically focus upon are the weekly Sabbath, the Holy Days, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing.

Basically they believe "other so-called Christians" are spiritually blinded and they possess the truth, just like many other cults. They deny the Trinity doctrine, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, and the bodily resurrection.

Here's a thread that I wrote which outlines their bad theology for the most part:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rongism-forum-seventh-day-sabbathkeeping.html

Herbert Armstrong was the founder of Worldwide Church of God. He died in 1986 and his successor, Joe Tkach, reformed the church's doctrines over time. They are not heretical anymore, although I don't share their precise theology.

One of the funny things is that while they claim to be enlightened, they are virtually biblically illiterate although they don't know it. They know their rabbit trails through their false doctrines, but very little about salvation issues.

 

[LT]

I know this thread is five months old, but I just found it, because someone resurrected it in the last few days, I guess. I don't know if this point has been addressed:

None of the poll answers respond to biblical truth, which is that in Christ we are to worship every day. No one day is set aside. All of them are our "sabbath" in Christ.

I haven't been on much since I started this thread. Just hopped on this week, and noticed the resurrection of a long dead question.
I agree that the poll was not well thought through.
Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath.

As for my experience with the 7th day Sabbath test, it was inconclusive.
This does not mean that I was not blessed for the obedience,
but that the blessing was from obedience itself, not necessarily from what it was I obeyed.

I affirm that this same blessing has continued, regardless of the day I take off out of obedience to the call of weekly rest,
but this does not prove anything against the validity and blessing of a 7th day Sabbath.

There is a difference between Sabbath and worship that is misunderstood often.

Worship is any action done for the sake of God's Glory, and in this way, worship is the action of true obedience.

Sabbath is a day of rest. To do so is worship, if done for the right motive, because God commands us to rest from our work once a week.

Gathering together in the Assembly is a separate command. The Church, as a whole, has often joined "gathering together" with the Sabbath as if it is a single command.

 

[Karraster]

You really need to study the 3rd chapter of 2nd Corinthians.


You cling to a beauty that has been done away with while ignoring an even greater beauty that is the ministering of the spirit. How smart is that?

is that greater beauty always condescending and sarcastic?...think I'll pass..

 

[seed_time_harvest]

QUOTE=LT;1382588]To ignore the principle of the Sabbath is to ignore the wisdom of God.
To say it is requirement is to deny the work of Christ.


We should feel confident that taking a day of rest will be blessed by God, and refusing a day of rest will cause consequences (either physical, spiritual, or both).



Does God bless a Saturday Sabbath more than a Sunday Sabbath?

I don't know. That's why I have been testing Saturday Sabbath.
This is my 3rd week in a row keeping Saturday as holy and restful.[/QUOTE]GOD said that the Sabbath was made for man not man made for the Sabbath and btw GOD is a SPIRIT and must be worshiped in spirit and truth and not by keeping rules and regulations
When David ate the shortbread that was not lawful for him to eat do you think GOD looked at his heart or look at how well he kept rules and regulations.
You got to stop thinking that GOD thinks like man.
GOD looks at the heart
Man looks at outward appearances.

 

[JaumeJ]

God blesses faith in Jesus Christ.

As for me, personally, since my only truly authorized designation of the Sabbath comes from God, Himself, and not some stretch of an interpretation of a verse here and there, I will always observe the Seventh Day as the Seventh Day. I may worship 24/7.

This privilege is given to me first by my Heavenly Father, and second by the teaching of Paul.

Why does anyone think when we pray what is popularly calle the "Our Fadther," we always say, "Thy will be done on earth."
Thy will be done is not a suggestion, it is an agreement between man and God.

I am not looking for agreement with me, just good consciences in the sight of God.

God bless all who are so I know I am.

 

[Grandpa]

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Hebrews 4:10-11
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Galatians 3:12-14

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


You're not receiving the promise of the Spirit through faith if you are working at the law. The law is not of faith.

You're not receiving rest from the Lord Jesus Christ if you are working at the law. We receive rest by faith in Christ.

You haven't ceased from your own works if you are working at the law. We cease from our works when we have faith in Christ.




That seems pretty straightforward.

 

[gotime]

Soon the law will tell you what day to worship. sooner than many think, the man of sin is surrounding he city and all who obey Gods Sabbath will be called troubles of the people. Soon the abomination that causes desolation will come.

The twin institution of God in creation is crumbling as the man of sin poises to attack. Marriage is falling in the earth and disregard for gods institution is enveloping this world. This is a sign that God is pulling away and leaving people to themselves. See Romans 2. The second is fast approaching that the law shall again overstep its bounds making Sunday the legal Sabbath. It will be innocent enough at first. a Family day but many will not discern where it is leading. We have been preaching this from the scriptures for over 150 years in times when everyone would laugh at the concept. but now the very things we have been saying are seen to be coming just as God foretold.

Judge for yourselves whether it is better to obey you rather than God.

 

[prove-all]

Soon the law will tell you what day to worship. sooner than many think, the man of sin is surrounding he city and all who obey Gods Sabbath will be called troubles of the people. Soon the abomination that causes desolation will come.

.

Germany Reaffirms Sunday Law
December 1, 2009

High court reaffirms ban on Sunday shopping | Germany | DW.COM | 02.12.2009


-on 1 December 2009 upon the entry into force of (the Treaty of Lisbon),
or [the roman treaty] completed, when the EU obtained a consolidated legal personality.

the (Roman empire) is became oficially alive again,in europe (NOW).

The parliamentary term (Reichstag) was first used in association with
the (Holy Roman Empire). the building from where Hitler launched a war that
cost about 50 million lives.

German Parliaments met from 1894 to 1933 and again now since 1999

-The Imperial Regalia, insignia, or crown jewels, the regalia of
the Emperors and Kings of the Holy Roman Empire.

The most important parts are the Imperial Crown,
the (Holy Lance) and the (Imperial Sword).


europe demands [a quiet sunday] no noise even from non christien
l

forging an EU-wide alliance for a work-free Sunday, noise free

 

[sparkman]

This is an attempt to use fear to promote Sabbathkeeping doctrine.

My call would be for people sitting on the fence to place their faith in Jesus Christ, who died on a cross for them. The answer is not in keeping the Saturday Sabbath, but it is to place one's faith in Jesus Christ.

The Gospel isn't about the Sabbath, and the fact that you mention that right off the bat betrays the focus of the Seventh Day Adventists and their false gospel. You don't point people to Jesus Christ but to the Sabbath. That isn't the gospel of the New Testament. Notice that you don't even mention placing one's faith in Jesus Christ.

Sabbathbreaking was not even mentioned on any of the sin lists to the Gentiles.

You should read Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. He addresses the fallacies of Sabbathkeeping assertions clearly. He is an ex SDA pastor.

Soon the law will tell you what day to worship. sooner than many think, the man of sin is surrounding he city and all who obey Gods Sabbath will be called troubles of the people. Soon the abomination that causes desolation will come.

The twin institution of God in creation is crumbling as the man of sin poises to attack. Marriage is falling in the earth and disregard for gods institution is enveloping this world. This is a sign that God is pulling away and leaving people to themselves. See Romans 2. The second is fast approaching that the law shall again overstep its bounds making Sunday the legal Sabbath. It will be innocent enough at first. a Family day but many will not discern where it is leading. We have been preaching this from the scriptures for over 150 years in times when everyone would laugh at the concept. but now the very things we have been saying are seen to be coming just as God foretold.

Judge for yourselves whether it is better to obey you rather than God.