Young Earth Creation. Does it matter what you believe?

[Tintin]

By the way the Hebrew for 'father' in this passage means 'founder', referring to the first to establish such lifestyles and occupations.

 

[Crustyone]

Pumicestone, God is only deluding those who won't believe, the rest of us know better. It isn't that critical what is believed about the beginning however as that is not what saves.

 

[valiant]

You clearly have no respect for the early chapters of Genesis. I'm done.

I have full respect for the early chapters of Genesis. What I have little respect for is your naive interpretation of them. I am realistic.

But I gather you have no answers

 

[valiant]

By the way the Hebrew for 'father' in this passage means 'founder', referring to the first to establish such lifestyles and occupations.

perhaps you would supply the proof of that? In other Scriptures father of means that he was their ancestor.

 

[JackH]

Hmm was this for a 100 or so non-Adamists? Or had all the family joined him?

You said this in response to Tintin saying Cain built the first city.

So you think perhaps Cain married a non-Adamist?

Maybe Cain married a Neanderthal.

Neanderthal are fully human, you know, according to YECs.

 

[JackH]

479 or so

tipped into the sea daily.

You said this in response to the issue of waste management on the ark.

YECs typically furnish a bigger load of crap.

As in, around 2,000 animals on the ark.

That's a whole lot of tipping for only 8 people.

You mean Noah couldn't train the cats to jump off the boat and take care of business?

You would think he could if he could keep some of those animals from killing each other.

 

[valiant]

You said this in response to the issue of waste management on the ark.

YECs typically furnish a bigger load of crap.

As in, around 2,000 animals on the ark.

That's a whole lot of tipping for only 8 people.

You mean Noah couldn't train the cats to jump off the boat and take care of business?

You would think he could if he could keep some of those animals from killing each other.

well they didn't have an awful lot else to do apart from feeding the other end

 

[valiant]

You said this in response to Tintin saying Cain built the first city.

So you think perhaps Cain married a non-Adamist?

Maybe Cain married a Neanderthal.

Neanderthal are fully human, you know, according to YECs.

No, there were no non-Adamists. The 'city' Cain built was either a tent encampment or a group of caves. The word for 'city' is also used of tent encampments.

 

[Pumicestone]

And all the Creationists are right - Evolution is a theory - but a theory based on accumulating evidence.
Some indisputable facts for sure - but it does not pretend to have all the answers.
That's what science does ... the ongoing search for truth.

As opposed to the Creationist who stands on the mountain top and yells "I have found THE TRUTH"
based on anonymous writings by primitive,illiterate, superstitious tribesmen many, many centuries ago.

The books of the Bible aren't anonymous writings.
They're not written by primitive, illiterate, superstitious tribesman (how does that exactly work?)
You're right that they written many, many years ago. Although, centuries is wrong.

Not that I'm a young earth creationist by any stretch here, but if someone is "writing," then it seems that by definition they aren't primitive or illiterate.

You are both dead right, of course !
Somebody eventually writing this stuff down, from previous word-of-mouth stories, would not be "illiterate".
But his sources might well have been.
What can I say - it was the wee small hours of the morning here if I recall, and I got a bit carried away.


HOWEVER ...
THE BIBLE - OLD TESTAMENT
"The books of the Jewish Bible are believed to have been written over several centuries,
beginning in the 10th century BC - by which time the Hebrews are settled in Canaan, or Palestine.
But in many parts the scribes are writing down a much older oral tradition. "

This is the opinion of the vast, vast majority of genuine biblical scholars and theologians.
Not necessarily the radical fundamentalists though.

 

[valiant]

You are both dead right, of course !
Somebody eventually writing this stuff down, from previous word-of-mouth stories, would not be "illiterate".
But his sources might well have been.
What can I say - it was the wee small hours of the morning here if I recall, and I got a bit carried away.


HOWEVER ...
THE BIBLE - OLD TESTAMENT
"The books of the Jewish Bible are believed to have been written over several centuries,
beginning in the 10th century BC - by which time the Hebrews are settled in Canaan, or Palestine.
But in many parts the scribes are writing down a much older oral tradition. "

This is the opinion of the vast, vast majority of genuine biblical scholars and theologians.
Not necessarily the radical fundamentalists though.

LOL in other words they don't really know. How do they know the content of the 'much older oral tradition?'

You must remember that most Biblical scholars are trying to get recognition. NO ONE gets recognition by arguing that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. But all the previous scholarly theories are now up for grabs. No good scholar really accepts JEPD any more. If their arguments were sound they would be agreeing with each other, but they certainly are not. You pays your money and you takes your choice. You can find scholars who will back up almost anything.

Even with their views it is in fact agreed by a large number of scholars that the basis of the Pentateuch is Mosaic. Only the radicals deny it. And they have an axe to grind.

The recognition that Genesis is made up of records written on stone or clay has gone a long way to establish its historicity, as is the recognition that it is built up around 'covenants'. So there WERE written records. Is it likely that someone trained in Egypt would not record much of what he saw as important?. We know that covenants WERE recorded.

Many of the theories developed when scholars had no real idea about what Israel was really like. They believed they were all illiterate tribespeople in an almost illiterate society. But archaeological evidence has overthrown such ideas. Even slaves in the mines in Sinai in 18th century BC could read and write.

Having been a scholar most of my life I have little confidence in scholarly opinions about the Pentateuch. Like the evolutionists they ignore any evidence that disagrees with them..

So you consider Allis, Beasley Murray, Dick Wilson, E J Young, R K Harrison and many others to be 'radical fundamentalists?' Well that at least shows how unreliable YOU are.

 

[Pumicestone]

479 or so

Estimated Number of Animal and Plant Species
[TABLE="class: sgmltable"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Amphibians[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]6,199[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Birds[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]9,956[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Fish[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]30,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Mammals[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]5,416[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Reptiles[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]8,240[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Subtotal[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]59,811[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Invertebrates[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Insects[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]950,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Molluscs[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]81,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Crustaceans[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]40,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Corals[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]2,175[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Others[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]130,200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Subtotal[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]1,203,375[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
OK, discounting the corals and molluscs and such (few of which would have survived in all that fresh water though),
that 479or so have really evolved into a fantastic array of species in such a short time.

You know it is dead easy to work out how this Sumerian legend crept into various Middle Eastern mythologies because the people of the day knew nothing of most of the critters on this planet.
To them, two or seven pairs of each would fit on an ark that size.

But the panda, the penguin, the polar bear, the kangaroo, the alpaca and the moose etc etc etc etc etc etc ?
Incidentally, how did these beasties get there ?
And why did the kangaroo not leave a few offspring anywhere between Ararat and Australia after the flood.
They breed like rabbits ya know !

 

[valiant]

Estimated Number of Animal and Plant Species
[TABLE="class: sgmltable"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Amphibians[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]6,199[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Birds[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]9,956[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Fish[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]30,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Mammals[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]5,416[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Reptiles[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]8,240[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Subtotal[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]59,811[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Invertebrates[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Insects[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]950,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Molluscs[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]81,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Crustaceans[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]40,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Corals[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]2,175[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Others[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]130,200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: left"]Subtotal[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCFF, align: right"]1,203,375[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
OK, discounting the corals and molluscs and such (few of which would have survived in all that fresh water though),
that 479or so have really evolved into a fantastic array of species in such a short time.

You know it is dead easy to work out how this Sumerian legend crept into various Middle Eastern mythologies because the people of the day knew nothing of most of the critters on this planet.
To them, two or seven pairs of each would fit on an ark that size.

But the panda, the penguin, the polar bear, the kangaroo, the alpaca and the moose etc etc etc etc etc etc ?
Incidentally, how did these beasties get there ?
And why did the kangaroo not leave a few offspring anywhere between Ararat and Australia after the flood.
The breed like rabbits ya know !

well just for your information my '479 or so' was an obvious joke. but you evolutionists are so tightened up that you wouldn't spot it LOL

As I believe the Bible teaches that while the flood was of vast proportions, but not one that was worldwide, I have none of the problems you suggest. Perhaps you should read what people say before you answer?. But then you are an evolutionist so you wouldn't LOL

As for your suggestion about the Sumerian legend. Codswallop. Genesis 1-11 was probably contemporary with it.

 

[Pumicestone]

Valiant makes a valiant effort to defend the indefensible. I like that.
He doesn't just get all sarky and threatening and abusive when confronted with the uncomfortable stuff.
It's way past my beddie-byes time here and nobody needs 'beauty' sleep more desperately - so just a few for now ...

How do they know the content of the 'much older oral tradition?' Their daddies and grand-daddies told them ?
Australia's abrigines have a wealth of oral tradition about the 'Dream Time' passed on from generation to generation for thousands of years - with nary a written word.
You must remember that most Biblical scholars are trying to get recognition. True - including the rabid fundamentalists.
No good scholar really accepts JEPD any more. JEPD ? Sorry.
If their arguments were sound they would be agreeing with each other - Noticed the enormous divergence of opinion in here - on just about everything ?

it is in fact agreed by a large number of scholars that the basis of the Pentateuch is Mosaic.
Only the radicals deny it. And they have an axe to grind. About Moses - sure. Written by Moses -doubtful. Particularly the details of his own death.
And committed Christians have no 'axe to grind' - no vested interest ? They are totally impartial ? Yeah Right !

Any of those stone or clay records survive ? Just one teensy-weensy one ?

Even slaves in the mines in Sinai in 18th century BC could read and write. Evidence ?

Having been a scholar most of my life I have little confidence in scholarly opinions about the Pentateuch. Hallelujah ! Does that include Allis, Beasley Murray, Dick Wilson, E J Young and R K Harrison ?
Some (not all) of whom I note are the product of Bible Colleges and Seminaries rather than reputable universities.
"Colleges" which make no pretence of impartiality. They start from a Fundie Creationist base and countenance no alternate view.

 

[valiant]

Valiant makes a valiant effort to defend the indefensible. I like that.
He doesn't just get all sarky and threatening and abusive when confronted with the uncomfortable stuff.
It's way past my beddie-byes time here and nobody needs 'beauty' sleep more desperately - so just a few for now ...

How do they know the content of the 'much older oral tradition?' Their daddies and grand-daddies told them ?
Australia's abrigines have a wealth of oral tradition about the 'Dream Time' passed on from generation to generation for thousands of years - with nary a written word.

LOL I meant how do the scholars know? I don't think their daddys told them.

Besides covenants were considered as TOO IMPORTANT to be passed on orally. Being in writing validated them . They were not about the 'dream time'

 

[valiant]

You must remember that most Biblical scholars are trying to get recognition. True - including the rabid fundamentalists.

But the ones I cited gained grudging recognition even from radical scholars because of their genuine scholarship.. More modern examples are Kitchen and Yaumachi. the world recognised Egyptologists. But rather than endless speculation they defended the truth of the Scriptures.

No good scholar really accepts JEPD any more. JEPD ? Sorry.

Sorry. Clearly I saw you as more knowledgeable than you are It is the old out of date speculation about the origins of the Pentateuch regularly taught in schools but totally out of date.
.

If their arguments were sound they would be agreeing with each other -

Noticed the enormous divergence of opinion in here - on just about everything ?

So you think everyone on here is a scholar? LOL Scholars are supposed to PROVE their case.
it is in fact agreed by a large number of scholars that the basis of the Pentateuch is Mosaic.
Only the radicals deny it. And they have an axe to grind.

About Moses - sure. Written by Moses -doubtful. [/quote]

Much of the material, especially the law codes, written BY Moses. Probably gathered together in one by Joshua. That is why as Moses secretary he spent so much time in the Tabernacle. (Exodus 33.11)

Particularly the details of his own death.

Joshua.

And committed Christians have no 'axe to grind' - no vested interest ? They are totally impartial ? Yeah Right !

They are not scholars trying to prove to the world that what they are saying is proven fact. Scholars are PAID for it. But many are sceptics (like you) before they start. They are out to disprove the Scriptures.

Any of those stone or clay records survive ? Just one teensy-weensy one ?

CLEAR Evidence of them survives in Genesis. The later history of Israel was not conducive to their survival.

Even slaves in the mines in Sinai in 18th century BC could read and write. Evidence ?

Written on the walls in the mining areas. They are archaeologically verified.

Having been a scholar most of my life I have little confidence in scholarly opinions about the Pentateuch. Hallelujah ! Does that include Allis, Beasley Murray, Dick Wilson, E J Young and R K Harrison ?

No they DO have to prove their credentials in order to be recognised.

Some (not all) of whom I note are the product of Bible Colleges and Seminaries rather than reputable universities.

I think you have your facts wrong about their backgrounds. They ALL had recognised University qualifications.

"Colleges" which make no pretence of impartiality. They start from a Fundie Creationist base and countenance no alternate view.

none of them came from such colleges. show me one who was. we do not have fundie creationist colleges over here that I am aware of.

 

[valiant]

Allis, Beasley Murray, Dick Wilson, E J Young and R K Harrison ?
Some (not all) of whom I note are the product of Bible Colleges and Seminaries rather than reputable universities.

O T ALLIS He was born in 1880 and studied at the University of Pennsylvania and Princeton Theological Seminary. He received a master's degree from Princeton University and a doctorate from the University of Berlin. Later, Allis received an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from Hampden Sydney College in 1927.

R K HARRISON -
Roland Kenneth Harrison (4 August 1920 – May 2, 1993) was an Old Testament scholar.
Harrison studied at the University of London (B.D., 1943; M.Th., 1947, Ph.D., 1952) and taught at Clifton College, Bristol from 1947 to 1949, before his appointment as Hellmuth Professor of Old Testament Studies at Huron College, University of Western Ontario. In 1960 he became Professor of Old Testament Studies at Wycliffe College, University of Toronto, where he stayed until his retirement in 1986.

E J YOUNG Young received an A.B. fromStanford University in 1929, a Th.B. (the equivalent of an M.Div.) and a Th.M. from Westminster Theological Seminary in 1935, and a Ph.D. from Dropsie College (the (Jewish) Centre for Judaic Studies) in 1943.

R DICK WILSON While at Princeton University, he was able to read the New Testament in nine languages. He graduated from Princeton at the age of 20, later receiving a master's degree and doctorate before doing post-graduate work inGermany at the Humboldt University of Berlin. In 1883, Wilson became Professor of the Old Testament at Western Theological Seminary (later known as Pittsburgh Theological Seminary), where he had done some of his graduate studies. In 1900, he returned to Princeton as the William Henry Green Professor of Semitic Languages and Old Testament Criticism at Princeton Theological Seminary.
G R BEASLEY MURRAY pursued his Master’s in Theology in New Testament Studies at King’s College, London University.

And to think I did not realise that all these universities were fundie creationist colleges. You find them EVERYWHERE LOL Where have I been ? LOL

 

[JackH]

well just for your information my '479 or so' was an obvious joke. but you evolutionists are so tightened up that you wouldn't spot it LOL

As I believe the Bible teaches that while the flood was of vast proportions, but not one that was worldwide, I have none of the problems you suggest. Perhaps you should read what people say before you answer?. But then you are an evolutionist so you wouldn't LOL

As for your suggestion about the Sumerian legend. Codswallop. Genesis 1-11 was probably contemporary with it.

Sure, I thought you were serious about 479.

Suspecting your logic being one dinosaur and one dinosaur egg to get the odd number.

So, this vast flood could have involved only Mesopotamia?

As in, a vast area consisting of what we know know now as Iran, Iraq, parts of Syria and Saudi Arabia?

 

[Pumicestone]

G R BEASLEY MURRAY pursued his Master’s in Theology in New Testament Studies at King’s College, London University.
we do not have fundie creationist colleges over here that I am aware of.

George Raymond Beasley-Murray was principal of *Spurgeon's College in England and also James Buchanan Harrison Professor of New Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.


"I did not realise that all these universities were fundie creationist colleges. You find them EVERYWHERE LOL "

* THEOLOGICAL EDUCATION FOR MISSION AND MINISTRY"We continue today with the same generous evangelical vision that Charles Spurgeon himself had to offer training for mission and ministry that is both relevant and practical" Dr Roger Standing, Principal

 

[JackH]

But the panda, the penguin, the polar bear, the kangaroo, the alpaca and the moose etc etc etc etc etc etc ?
Incidentally, how did these beasties get there ?
And why did the kangaroo not leave a few offspring anywhere between Ararat and Australia after the flood.
They breed like rabbits ya know !

Don't forget about the Tasmanian devils.

This question kept me up last night.

I'm waiting for some sensible answer from these YECs.

I guess I won't be sleeping tonight either.

 

[JackRT]

I have full respect for the early chapters of Genesis.

As do I. It is too bad that more people do not take the advice of the great bible scholar Rabbi Moses Maimonides who said that the first eleven chapters of Genesis were "mythology and borrowed folklore".