IS Jesus a LIBERAL Chriatian?

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J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#1
The Great Commandment as we all know is to Love others as we Love ourselves, ( I fail on this) but wonder to what extent Jesus would pacify our modern world against Biblical Doctrine for Loves sake.

Would peripheral issues be updated to accommodate modern Human Rights and Capitalist Thinking?

Science in the form of medicines and media, tolerated and promoted if responsibly?

How would he react, I ponder, to OUR version of LOVE?
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#2
The Pharisees were the conservatives. The Sadducee were the liberals.

That's how God dealt with politics.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#3
The Great Commandment as we all know is to Love others as we Love ourselves, ( I fail on this) but wonder to what extent Jesus would pacify our modern world against Biblical Doctrine for Loves sake.

Would peripheral issues be updated to accommodate modern Human Rights and Capitalist Thinking?

Science in the form of medicines and media, tolerated and promoted if responsibly?

How would he react, I ponder, to OUR version of LOVE?
There is no greater form of Idolatry than when those who call themselves "believers" begin to shape God into a image of their own will.....We don't change God, He changes us and that is love.
 
Jun 27, 2015
112
2
0
#4
The Pharisees were the conservatives. The Sadducee were the liberals.

That's how God dealt with politics.
You have that exactly backwards! the Sadducees were part of the establishment along with the Herodians and the High Priesthood.

Over the centuries and going right back to the New Testament itself, the Pharisees have been viewed very negatively. In my opinion most of this negativity is quite undeserved.


At the time of Jesus the Pharisees were the most liberal and progressive aspect of Judaism. They were in several 'schools' or ‘bets’ --- the most progressive was Bet Hillel, which was in a minority position at the time of Jesus. The dominant group was the more conservative Bet Shammai. Towards the end of the first century following the destruction of the temple, Bet Hillel moved into the dominant role. Modern rabbinical Judaism traces its roots to the Pharisee movement.

Being a rabbi, Jesus was also a Pharisee and it seems likely that Jesus was of Bet Hillel. To suggest that the scribes and Pharisees were in bed with the high priest and his little group is to betray a lack of understanding of Judaism at that time. The high priest, a Sadducee, was the most hated man in Judaism for the simple reason that he was regarded as a Roman 'quisling' --- he was after all personally appointed by the procurator himself and answered to him. The high priest did chair the Sanhedrin but did not control it. It was, in fact, controlled by the Pharisees who opposed the high priest at nearly every turn.

The Pharisees themselves became a major movement within Judaism in the centuries just prior to Jesus. They regarded their role as an effort to make the Law a possession of all the people not just the priesthood and the ruling elite. To this end they established synagogues in the cities, towns and villages. That is to say, they invented the 'community church' and most Christian churches today follow the same order of service established by the Pharisees --- several scripture readings interspersed with prayer and hymns and of course a sermon usually based on one of the readings. They also established schools attached to the synagogues to encourage literacy even amongst the common people. At the time of Jesus they as a group were certainly were not the hypocrites that the gospels portray them as. It is also very probably true that there were individual Pharisees who were over-zealous hypocrites.

In addition they were able to successfully introduce legal measures to mitigate the harsher aspects of Torah law. This had the effect of virtually eliminating legal executions by stoning for offences like blasphemy, adultery, rebellious youths and the like. In those few executions that did take place, they ensured that the victim was rendered dead or unconscious by the first stone.

Scripture portrays a degree of hostility between the Pharisees and Jesus and his followers. It is doubtful that this was the actual case at the time of Jesus. I suspect that the majority of Pharisees would have been both curious about and friendly toward Jesus. In Acts 5:33-42 Luke portrays Peter and the apostles arrested and taken for trial before the Sanhedrin. Note that earlier in this same chapter it was the Sadducees not the Pharisees who were demanding that the apostles be imprisoned. It was Rabbi Gamaliel, a Pharisee, who successfully defended them before the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Gamaliel was a student of Rabbi Hillel mentioned earlier. Scripture even notes that Saul/Paul studied under Gamaliel.

About forty years following the execution of Jesus, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and with it they also destroyed the high priesthood. In the years following, the leadership of Judaism did devolve upon the Pharisees and we see rabbinic Judaism becoming dominant. Like all peoples threatened with cultural extinction, Judaism turned inward --- they circled the wagons and became very suspicious of any threat both internal and external. This is a fundamentalist knee jerk reaction --- we see something similar going on in the Islamic world today and also in the Christian right in certain parts of the USA.

This was the climate in which the gospels were written. By this time it was becoming increasingly apparent that the early Christian church was losing the battle for the heart and soul of Judaism to the Pharisee rabbis and there was a good deal of bitterness on the part of both parties. This explains the animosity toward the Pharisees. Let us then temper our attitudes and ‘Pharisee rhetoric’ because we now realize, for the most part, that they have been portrayed quite unfairly in the gospels.



 
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M

Mitspa

Guest
#5
Ok those who Jesus called children of the devil "Pharisees" just have bad press from Gods Word? What will people come u-p with next?
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,893
9,627
113
#6
Jesus is not a chriatian at all.. there's no such thing as a chriatian.. :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#8
Love and truth go hand in hand...he would not compromise truth for the sake of some mushy, gushy type of love that is spewed today by many.....especially the religiously religious!
 
Jun 27, 2015
112
2
0
#9
Jesus is not a chriatian at all.. there's no such thing as a chriatian.. :)
You are quite right that Jesus himself was not a CHRISTIAN (however you choose to spell it). A careful reading of both the bible and the historical record indicate to me that Jesus was not intending to found a new religion but rather to reform Judaism itself.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
#10
You are quite right that Jesus himself was not a CHRISTIAN (however you choose to spell it). A careful reading of both the bible and the historical record indicate to me that Jesus was not intending to found a new religion but rather to reform Judaism itself.
So what exactly do you think he meant when he spoke of all those coming after him that would be called by HIS NAME....??
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#11
Jesus is not a chriatian at all.. there's no such thing as a chriatian.. :)
I'm am fluent in reading and writing typos. Sadly, I'm also fluent in speaking in typos. lol
 
Jun 27, 2015
112
2
0
#12
So what exactly do you think he meant when he spoke of all those coming after him that would be called by HIS NAME....??
We must also realize that not all the words attributed to Jesus in our gospels are his actual words. Biblical scholarship over the past 200 years has recovered much that has been forgotten or suppressed. It also indicates that we must use great caution about how we interpret the bible. We must also realize that the bible itself is an interpretation.
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
904
17
18
#13
Jesus was not a liberal, nor a conservative, by American definition.
His politics were not about human government, but about the individual.

Jesus did not protest the unfairness of the Roman government, or turn the tables of tax collectors,
but displayed the hypocrisy of religion, and turned the tables of those who made money by exploiting people through religion.

If you think the government should be feeding the hungry, and housing the poor...
you should be doing it yourself.
That is what Jesus taught. Don't place the responsibility upon others, using government as the tool to "share the burden", but take on the burden yourself.

As for the Pharisees and Saducees: the Saducees were the liberal governing power. Liberal in interpreting Scripture, and liberal in politics/morality.
The Pharisees were the conservative religious base. Conservative in interpreting Scripture, and conservative in politics/morality.
-The Saducees viewed Scripture as being a metaphor for good living,
and that it held special secret knowledge that could help a person become successful.
-The Pharisees viewed Scripture as being the social/moral structure by which all men should live,
and that by following the structure people were saved.
 
P

phil112

Guest
#14
Liberals support abortion and homosexuality. No such thing as a liberal christian.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#15
A liberal (theologically speaking) is one who plays fast and loose with God's Word, denying it's miracles etc. So I hardly can imagine Jesus denying miracles without denying Himself LOL.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,569
6,780
113
#16
Ok, I'm confused..............a member with the SN JUSTINE1 posts this thread, and then a member with the SN JACKRT (who just joined today) is the one defending the OP? What happened to JUSTINE1? (who just joined last Wednesday)

Shouldn't JUSTINE1 be discussing his OP?
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
904
17
18
#17
You are quite right that Jesus himself was not a CHRISTIAN (however you choose to spell it). A careful reading of both the bible and the historical record indicate to me that Jesus was not intending to found a new religion but rather to reform Judaism itself.
First point:
It's a New Covenant, not a revision of the Old one. It is not "The Old Covenant, 2nd edition".

Second point:
Judaism is not the Old Testement religion.
Jesus was casting off the chains and burdens of Judaism.
The Restoration was to the Faith of Abraham,
which Judaism is a perversion of.
 
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J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#18
Ok, I'm confused..............a member with the SN JUSTINE1 posts this thread, and then a member with the SN JACKRT (who just joined today) is the one defending the OP? What happened to JUSTINE1? (who just joined last Wednesday)

Shouldn't JUSTINE1 be discussing his OP?
Firstly sorry about my spelling,

Secondly,

I havent posted because i dont feel i asked my question correctly and thus the responses are missing my point, so I have nothing to add to any discussions in those areas.
This post was really just a feeler for whether some of the New Testament peripheral doctrine is as relevant today as when written.

My point is that we often pick and choose obediance based on our arguments or biases but what would Jesus say in Regard to things like:

Reading science theory
Female leadership roles
Head Coverings and styles
Jewellery restrictions/tattoos/make up
How about modern media / music
Friendships / relationshipswith non believers

How strict/unrestricted would Jesus be?

Liberal, Orthodox??

Not to be a coward i have a somewhat Orthodox stance but know the value of Love and Judgement so would maybe need to soften in certain areas.

Peace and Love
 
Jun 27, 2015
112
2
0
#19
As for the Pharisees and Saducees: the Saducees were the liberal governing power. Liberal in interpreting Scripture, and liberal in politics/morality.
The Pharisees were the conservative religious base. Conservative in interpreting Scripture, and conservative in politics/morality.
Over the centuries and going right back to the New Testament itself, the Pharisees have been viewed very negatively. In my opinion most of this negativity is quite undeserved.


At the time of Jesus the Pharisees were the most liberal and progressive aspect of Judaism. They were in several 'schools' or ‘bets’ --- the most progressive was Bet Hillel, which was in a minority position at the time of Jesus. The dominant group was the more conservative Bet Shammai. Towards the end of the first century following the destruction of the temple, Bet Hillel moved into the dominant role. Modern rabbinical Judaism traces its roots to the Pharisee movement.

Being a rabbi, Jesus was also a Pharisee and it seems likely that Jesus was of Bet Hillel. To suggest that the scribes and Pharisees were in bed with the high priest and his little group is to betray a lack of understanding of Judaism at that time. The high priest, a Sadducee, was the most hated man in Judaism for the simple reason that he was regarded as a Roman 'quisling' --- he was after all personally appointed by the procurator himself and answered to him. The high priest did chair the Sanhedrin but did not control it. It was, in fact, controlled by the Pharisees who opposed the high priest at nearly every turn.

The Pharisees themselves became a major movement within Judaism in the centuries just prior to Jesus. They regarded their role as an effort to make the Law a possession of all the people not just the priesthood and the ruling elite. To this end they established synagogues in the cities, towns and villages. That is to say, they invented the 'community church' and most Christian churches today follow the same order of service established by the Pharisees --- several scripture readings interspersed with prayer and hymns and of course a sermon usually based on one of the readings. They also established schools attached to the synagogues to encourage literacy even amongst the common people. At the time of Jesus they as a group were certainly were not the hypocrites that the gospels portray them as. It is also very probably true that there were individual Pharisees who were over-zealous hypocrites.

In addition they were able to successfully introduce legal measures to mitigate the harsher aspects of Torah law. This had the effect of virtually eliminating legal executions by stoning for offences like blasphemy, adultery, rebellious youths and the like. In those few executions that did take place, they ensured that the victim was rendered dead or unconscious by the first stone.

Scripture portrays a degree of hostility between the Pharisees and Jesus and his followers. It is doubtful that this was the actual case at the time of Jesus. I suspect that the majority of Pharisees would have been both curious about and friendly toward Jesus. In Acts 5:33-42 Luke portrays Peter and the apostles arrested and taken for trial before the Sanhedrin. Note that earlier in this same chapter it was the Sadducees not the Pharisees who were demanding that the apostles be imprisoned. It was Rabbi Gamaliel, a Pharisee, who successfully defended them before the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Gamaliel was a student of Rabbi Hillel mentioned earlier. Scripture even notes that Saul/Paul studied under Gamaliel.

About forty years following the execution of Jesus, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and with it they also destroyed the high priesthood. In the years following, the leadership of Judaism did devolve upon the Pharisees and we see rabbinic Judaism becoming dominant. Like all peoples threatened with cultural extinction, Judaism turned inward --- they circled the wagons and became very suspicious of any threat both internal and external. This is a fundamentalist knee jerk reaction --- we see something similar going on in the Islamic world today and also in the Christian right in certain parts of the USA.

This was the climate in which the gospels were written. By this time it was becoming increasingly apparent that the early Christian church was losing the battle for the heart and soul of Judaism to the Pharisee rabbis and there was a good deal of bitterness on the part of both parties. This explains the animosity toward the Pharisees. Let us then temper our attitudes and ‘Pharisee rhetoric’ because we now realize, for the most part, that they have been portrayed quite unfairly in the gospels.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#20
Over the centuries and going right back to the New Testament itself, the Pharisees have been viewed very negatively. In my opinion most of this negativity is quite undeserved.


At the time of Jesus the Pharisees were the most liberal and progressive aspect of Judaism. They were in several 'schools' or ‘bets’ --- the most progressive was Bet Hillel, which was in a minority position at the time of Jesus. The dominant group was the more conservative Bet Shammai. Towards the end of the first century following the destruction of the temple, Bet Hillel moved into the dominant role. Modern rabbinical Judaism traces its roots to the Pharisee movement.

Being a rabbi, Jesus was also a Pharisee and it seems likely that Jesus was of Bet Hillel. To suggest that the scribes and Pharisees were in bed with the high priest and his little group is to betray a lack of understanding of Judaism at that time. The high priest, a Sadducee, was the most hated man in Judaism for the simple reason that he was regarded as a Roman 'quisling' --- he was after all personally appointed by the procurator himself and answered to him. The high priest did chair the Sanhedrin but did not control it. It was, in fact, controlled by the Pharisees who opposed the high priest at nearly every turn.

The Pharisees themselves became a major movement within Judaism in the centuries just prior to Jesus. They regarded their role as an effort to make the Law a possession of all the people not just the priesthood and the ruling elite. To this end they established synagogues in the cities, towns and villages. That is to say, they invented the 'community church' and most Christian churches today follow the same order of service established by the Pharisees --- several scripture readings interspersed with prayer and hymns and of course a sermon usually based on one of the readings. They also established schools attached to the synagogues to encourage literacy even amongst the common people. At the time of Jesus they as a group were certainly were not the hypocrites that the gospels portray them as. It is also very probably true that there were individual Pharisees who were over-zealous hypocrites.

In addition they were able to successfully introduce legal measures to mitigate the harsher aspects of Torah law. This had the effect of virtually eliminating legal executions by stoning for offences like blasphemy, adultery, rebellious youths and the like. In those few executions that did take place, they ensured that the victim was rendered dead or unconscious by the first stone.

Scripture portrays a degree of hostility between the Pharisees and Jesus and his followers. It is doubtful that this was the actual case at the time of Jesus. I suspect that the majority of Pharisees would have been both curious about and friendly toward Jesus. In Acts 5:33-42 Luke portrays Peter and the apostles arrested and taken for trial before the Sanhedrin. Note that earlier in this same chapter it was the Sadducees not the Pharisees who were demanding that the apostles be imprisoned. It was Rabbi Gamaliel, a Pharisee, who successfully defended them before the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Gamaliel was a student of Rabbi Hillel mentioned earlier. Scripture even notes that Saul/Paul studied under Gamaliel.

About forty years following the execution of Jesus, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and with it they also destroyed the high priesthood. In the years following, the leadership of Judaism did devolve upon the Pharisees and we see rabbinic Judaism becoming dominant. Like all peoples threatened with cultural extinction, Judaism turned inward --- they circled the wagons and became very suspicious of any threat both internal and external. This is a fundamentalist knee jerk reaction --- we see something similar going on in the Islamic world today and also in the Christian right in certain parts of the USA.

This was the climate in which the gospels were written. By this time it was becoming increasingly apparent that the early Christian church was losing the battle for the heart and soul of Judaism to the Pharisee rabbis and there was a good deal of bitterness on the part of both parties. This explains the animosity toward the Pharisees. Let us then temper our attitudes and ‘Pharisee rhetoric’ because we now realize, for the most part, that they have been portrayed quite unfairly in the gospels.
Pretty close to accurate. I'm impressed... most Seminaries steer students away from Anthropological Theology.