But you said before that fellowship has nothing to do with salvation, right? In other words, if you tell someone this, it is misleading and it can make someone think that holiness is optional when it comes to salvation. So then they will have no real incentive to do good because they got their ticket to Heaven and can live like they used to live (as a part of their old sinful life). But what makes it more confusing is that you say you do confess and abide in fellowship with Him. The problem I have with all this is not only is it immoral to teach that one can sin and still be saved, but you are not always upfront about it.
Free from sin
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If you still sin, and are in sin and always sinning, then you are a servant of sin, and a servant abides not in the house forever.
John 8:34-36 “Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.[SUP]35 [/SUP]And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
John 8:34-36 “Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.[SUP]35 [/SUP]And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
So what does it mean in Ephesians 4 when we are told to put off the old - also in Colossians 3 where we are told to put off our old self and put on the new - if the old man has truly been crucified.
I never said we should not WALK in newness of life . . . And if we are to consider ourselves dead and our old man crucified then we cannot sin because a "dead man" can't sin!!! The body of sin - the old man - will be destroyed at death and only at death - or if the Lord returns first whichever - when we receive our glorified bodies.
I never said we should not WALK in newness of life . . . And if we are to consider ourselves dead and our old man crucified then we cannot sin because a "dead man" can't sin!!! The body of sin - the old man - will be destroyed at death and only at death - or if the Lord returns first whichever - when we receive our glorified bodies.
True - I said fellowship has nothing to do with salvation . . . it has to do with our Christian WALK. When we are saved we are sealed with Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, being marked by God . . . we are considered already seated in heavenly places . . . we are partakers of the divine nature and in that nature we are righteous, justified, made holy (sanctified) . . . All wrapped up in that new creation.
So, that is what I would tell someone concerning salvation - plus I would tell someone that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ by God's grace and that it is a gift - that God does not take back his gifts. Salvation is birth into the household of God and nothing can change that "familial" relationship as a son/daughter of God. I would tell them that we strive to live in a way that is pleasing to God and should they sin they need to restore their fellowship (relationship) with the Father and the Son by confessing that they have sinned and are sorrowful then God restores that fellowship within the family. NEVER did they lose that salvation but their fellowship (relationship) within the family needed to be repaired. Basically, they were "grounded" and until they are forgiven they remain "grounded". Our spiritual family is the same as structure within our earthly family. I am in no way teaching someone that it is okay to sin . . .
I will tell them that one day they will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and be judged as to the good or bad they did in this life . . . they will be judged upon the works that they built upon the foundation of Christ - gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble will be burned by fire to test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, they will receive an award but if it is burned up they will suffer loss of rewards but yet they will be saved.
But what makes it more confusing is that you say you do confess and abide in fellowship with Him. "But in my "walk", if/when I sin - there is a break in my relationship with the Father and the Son - so I will need to restore that fellowship and that is why I ask forgiveness to repair that broken fellowship and my advocate, Jesus Christ stands before my Father as my defense counsel - I am then cleansed and restored in my fellowship with the Father and the Son." How is that confusing . . . . You do know that "fellowship" is "relationship"?
So, that is what I would tell someone concerning salvation - plus I would tell someone that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ by God's grace and that it is a gift - that God does not take back his gifts. Salvation is birth into the household of God and nothing can change that "familial" relationship as a son/daughter of God. I would tell them that we strive to live in a way that is pleasing to God and should they sin they need to restore their fellowship (relationship) with the Father and the Son by confessing that they have sinned and are sorrowful then God restores that fellowship within the family. NEVER did they lose that salvation but their fellowship (relationship) within the family needed to be repaired. Basically, they were "grounded" and until they are forgiven they remain "grounded". Our spiritual family is the same as structure within our earthly family. I am in no way teaching someone that it is okay to sin . . .
I will tell them that one day they will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and be judged as to the good or bad they did in this life . . . they will be judged upon the works that they built upon the foundation of Christ - gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble will be burned by fire to test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, they will receive an award but if it is burned up they will suffer loss of rewards but yet they will be saved.
But what makes it more confusing is that you say you do confess and abide in fellowship with Him. "But in my "walk", if/when I sin - there is a break in my relationship with the Father and the Son - so I will need to restore that fellowship and that is why I ask forgiveness to repair that broken fellowship and my advocate, Jesus Christ stands before my Father as my defense counsel - I am then cleansed and restored in my fellowship with the Father and the Son." How is that confusing . . . . You do know that "fellowship" is "relationship"?
B
Before we were saved and redeemed by the blood of Christ we were in bondage to sin (the old sin nature that abides in the members of our body (Rom 7:23)). We were not free from it, meaning that we needed to be delivered from it through the cross. Sin is only crucified through the cross of Jesus Christ and all the sins it produced through the flesh. When we exercised faith in Jesus Christ and what he accomplished on the cross, we are set free from the bondage of the old sin nature and received a new nature through the new birth. The seed of that new nature is incorruptible and does not have sin in its seed. This is the new nature through the new birth that we are to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ.
In this new nature we walk by faith and not by sight, we have the promises of God which are all yea and amen, God is for us and nothing can separate us from the love of God. We learn to walk in the light of the word through the indwelling Spirit and learn to put off the old man and put on the new man which is created in righteousness and true holiness. If we fail or stumble, we fall into the grace wherein we stand and God is able to hold us up and make us stand. This is the reality of the believer who has been placed in Christ by grace when he first believed. As a believer he learns to put his trust in the Lord and not in any confidence of the flesh. The believer understands his potential for sin but exercises faith in what he has received from the Lord in being made free from sin.
In this new nature we walk by faith and not by sight, we have the promises of God which are all yea and amen, God is for us and nothing can separate us from the love of God. We learn to walk in the light of the word through the indwelling Spirit and learn to put off the old man and put on the new man which is created in righteousness and true holiness. If we fail or stumble, we fall into the grace wherein we stand and God is able to hold us up and make us stand. This is the reality of the believer who has been placed in Christ by grace when he first believed. As a believer he learns to put his trust in the Lord and not in any confidence of the flesh. The believer understands his potential for sin but exercises faith in what he has received from the Lord in being made free from sin.
When a man is born again of the Holy Spirit he is made a new creation in Christ. So what changes? The outsides or the insides? It is the inner man that changes, renewed in the spirit of his mind. (new heart and mind)
Ephesians 4:17-24 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Put to death the firstborn sin nature (old man of sin)...
Colossians 3:5-10 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
Ephesians 4:17-24 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Put to death the firstborn sin nature (old man of sin)...
Colossians 3:5-10 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
K
Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3 stating to put off our old sinful self is to be taken along with his many warnings to believers of the dire consequences if they continue to walk in those sinful ways.
The problem that I see with some is that you want to take how one walks in the faith and separate it from the belief.
We can not do that as Jesus, Paul, John, James, and Peter did not separate the two. Lord Jesus said those who believe in Him may have eternal life, and then went on to show what that belief in Him entails; Coming to Him, hearing what He said, and then going and doing what He said. (Luke 6:46-49)
All 3 are parts of what it means to believe in Him..............
Apostle Paul said only those who walk by the fruits of the Spirit and not by the works of the flesh will have eternal life and have no condemnation..........(Romans 8:1,5-9,13, Galatians 5:13-26)
Apostle John shows how ones walk will look like if they have eternal life abiding in them.......(1 John 2-4)
Apostle Peter shows a list that will be added to a believer in their walk, and if they do have those things they are short sighted and deceived.................(2 Peter 1:5-11)
Apostle James says a hearer of the word only that does not do according to the word is deceived...........(James 1:21-27)
B
It is a learning process that each believer takes on by faith and through the grace of God. If the believer is not being taught the word from a pastor/teacher and being built up through the grace of God they will never learn to put off the old man of sin and put on the new man being renewed in the spirit of their mind. To mortify means to put to death or reckon yourself to be dead to sin and that is a process that each believer needs lots of grace to learn in order to be strong in that grace. We can't do a thing in relationship to putting off the deeds of the old man without the cross and the grace of God. We should not be so quick to judge our fellow brother who is learning how to receive grace through this process.
That's sounds pretty good. But a lot of people are claiming they are still "in sin" but also claim to be "in Christ" at the same time, this is a grave error in understanding. Be not deceived, you cannot be living "in sin" and also living "in Christ" at the same time because sin has no place "in Christ."
It's not about learning as in earthly knowledge, it is about being born again of the Holy Spirit. It is only by the Holy Spirit one can put to death the deeds of the flesh. And I'm not judging anyone, but warning people not to be deceived into thinking grace is a license to sin, or that you can be living "in sin" and also be "in Christ" at the same time.
I am telling people that the Lord can set them free from sin if they will believe in the power of God and have faith in what the words of God says is true.
I am telling people that the Lord can set them free from sin if they will believe in the power of God and have faith in what the words of God says is true.
K
I would not go that far as saying that because the bible says the Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth.
For Jesus, Paul, and James all three show that this is one of the reasons the Holy Spirit is sent to us, to lead us in all truth. And it says in the bible if we have questions go to God in prayer and He will give us the answers we seek by the Holy Spirit.
True - It is the inner man that is new and has been created - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit - I agree and never said anything different. The new creation has to be manifested to the outside - that is our WALK. As we renew our minds, put off the old and put on the new - we are transformed from the inside out. Some things are harder for us to put off than are other things - so we may sin in those areas in which we are weak - doesn't do away with that new creation on the inside.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
If you declare with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that god raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved . Rom. 10:9,10 This is salvation . . . . this is the new birth. God uses words to speak to us and concerning our salvation - he used "birth" and "adoption" - both permanent in meaning.
John 3:18 says that those who do not believe are condemned . . . We are fleshly, carnal beings EVEN AFTER being born again . . . We do endeavor to walk by the Spirit, renewing our minds to the word of God. However, sometimes the flesh is weak and WE fail . . . The more we grow, the more we are able to manifest the fruit of the Spirit.
I don't believe I have said anything to the contrary.
"added to a believer in their walk" - the list is basically the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians - and as I said the more we grown, the more we are able to manifest the fruit of the Spirit.
Because one is sure of their salvation . . . does not mean that they hear the word and then disregard it! Because one is sure of their salvation means that they hear the word and work to do according to the word they have received.
Let anyone of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone . . . . .
If you declare with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that god raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved . Rom. 10:9,10 This is salvation . . . . this is the new birth. God uses words to speak to us and concerning our salvation - he used "birth" and "adoption" - both permanent in meaning.
John 3:18 says that those who do not believe are condemned . . . We are fleshly, carnal beings EVEN AFTER being born again . . . We do endeavor to walk by the Spirit, renewing our minds to the word of God. However, sometimes the flesh is weak and WE fail . . . The more we grow, the more we are able to manifest the fruit of the Spirit.
I don't believe I have said anything to the contrary.
"added to a believer in their walk" - the list is basically the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians - and as I said the more we grown, the more we are able to manifest the fruit of the Spirit.
Because one is sure of their salvation . . . does not mean that they hear the word and then disregard it! Because one is sure of their salvation means that they hear the word and work to do according to the word they have received.
Let anyone of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone . . . . .
K
First look at how many times you mentioned believe in your response, and the passage from Luke 6:46-49 from the Lord says and shows what it means to believe in Him. It also says those who do not do as He said do not have their faith built on Him, and when troubles arise their faith will be shaken and they will fall away from the truth making their ending result in eternal punishment and not eternal life.
Then the other part I had to highlight and respond to, because after being born again you can not continue to be carnally minded as you have said. Apostle Paul clearly says that way is enmity/against God and will lead you to eternal death, not eternal life !!!
I understand how many times "believe" is mentioned, even throughout scripture. THAT faith/belief is what gets us born again of the Spirit. Those of us that are born again of the Spirit have a firm foundation in Christ and DO endeavor to WALK by the Spirit. If you can do that 24/7, I applaud you . . .
The Apostle Paul also clearly said in Galatians that we are to walk in the Spirit so that we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (flesh [carnal, old man nature] is still there!) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. - Scripture speaks of a battle, a race, a fight . . .
The Apostle Paul also clearly said in Romans 7 - For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal (that which is born of the flesh is flesh), sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (old man nature) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth NO good thing: for to will is present with me; but to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is NO MORE I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me (old man nature, flesh, carnal) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me (in the old man nature, in the flesh). For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (the new creation, the divine nature) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, (flesh vs. Spirit; Galatians) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death (body of death, dead body) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. . . .
Who shall deliver us from this body of death? Jesus Christ - when he comes to redeem those that are his - we will be as he is . . . .
The Apostle Paul also clearly said in Galatians that we are to walk in the Spirit so that we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (flesh [carnal, old man nature] is still there!) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. - Scripture speaks of a battle, a race, a fight . . .
The Apostle Paul also clearly said in Romans 7 - For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal (that which is born of the flesh is flesh), sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (old man nature) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth NO good thing: for to will is present with me; but to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is NO MORE I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me (old man nature, flesh, carnal) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me (in the old man nature, in the flesh). For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (the new creation, the divine nature) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, (flesh vs. Spirit; Galatians) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death (body of death, dead body) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. . . .
Who shall deliver us from this body of death? Jesus Christ - when he comes to redeem those that are his - we will be as he is . . . .
Again your speaking of a double minded man by saying the old man sin nature is till there. This is supporting ongoing sin by serving the flesh, and still being in the flesh. That old man is to be put to death, not resurrected. That is what I was trying to show you in post #159. The old man of sin must die.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Peace.