Busted: "Sinless" Perfectionists Debunked

[Rosesrock]

Well, I would like for you to slowly re-read (and take in each word in meditation) and pray over 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14, and 2 Peter 2:1, 14 and just be honest with yourself in what they say.

In Romans chapter 7, Paul was primarily talking about his experience as a Jew who struggled to obey the Law before he was a Christian. For he gives the solution to struggling with sin at the end of the chapter. That solution is Jesus Christ. For he says, thank God thru Jesus Christ. Also, if Paul was talking from his experience as a Christian, then we would have a contradiction in Scripture. For in Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin. Yet, in Romans 8:1, Paul says he is free from sin. So which is it? Does Paul have a split personality? Now, you may not be OSAS, but I can tell you what the OSAS proponent will think in this situation, though. For they think Romans 7:25 is their solution. They think it says that a believer can sin in the flesh and yet in their spirit they do not sin. However, if that was true then why does Romans 8:1 say that if we walk after the Spirit (And not after the flesh) you are not under the Condemnation? How does the OSAS proponent get around Romans 8:1 with the thinking they can walk after the flesh and yet not be under the Condemnation? For Romans 8:13 says that if one walks after the flesh, they will die.

Hey jason,nice to see you this morning. I think we already understand each other, but since you're asking a question, ill try to answer. I wont speak for every believer, but i dont think i can sin even in the spirit, it's just easier not to, with gods help. That's why walking in the spirit is encouraged. Also as ive posted before Romans speaks of when sinning there's a separation of relationship, not loss of salvation. Ive had discussions wish you before, and we hit a brick wall because of this one point and im sure today will be no different. I just wanted to answer. Have a fantasic day

 

[Sirk]

It talks about suffering as Christ suffered. And suffering brings patience etc etc.

It does not say they are sinless. It says they no longer spend their lives trying to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. HUGE difference.



lol. Christ did not suffer to do Good, when you KNOW LOVE as God KNOWS LOVE, doing good is not painfull, in fact, doing bad is painfull (it is against your nature, which is love) doing good becomes natural. and in fact. we are happy (blessed) when we do it.

again, you do not understand what true love is, that is why you will not understand this until you repent.



see here you go again with your strawman. If I say do not go above 55 miles an hour. and you trust me, and do everything you can to obey that law. but one day you end up late for work. and your flesh tells you if you go 70 MPH you will not be late, and it will be ok, and YOU SUCCUMB.

Have you done something so evil you will be kicked out of my (Gods) family)

You see Scripture says if you break the LEAST of the law, your guilty of the WHOLE law. So in that moment when you broke the 55 MPH speed limit, you just because a murderer, an adulterer, a fornicator, a liar, one who direspects his parents, and does not love God.

It is a HUGE difference is saying it is OK to fall. than saying I will not be to PROUD to say I will never fall.

When are you going to get rid of your pride?

Life has a tendency to slap people upside the head. Even then they don't always get it.

 

[Jason0047]

It talks about suffering as Christ suffered. And suffering brings patience etc etc.

It does not say they are sinless. It says they no longer spend their lives trying to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. HUGE difference.

No, we know the passage says that ... "he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

You are just not believing what the Word of God says here.

In fact, we know that "ceasing from sin" is true because this truth is also confirmed for us in Galtians 5:24, too. For it says they that are Christ's have crucfied the affections and lusts.

lol. Christ did not suffer to do Good, when you KNOW LOVE as God KNOWS LOVE, doing good is not painfull, in fact, doing bad is painfull (it is against your nature, which is love) doing good becomes natural. and in fact. we are happy (blessed) when we do it.

You either misunderstood me or you intentionally are trying to twist my words to your advantage. That is not what I said. I said Christ suffered in doing good. That does NOT mean Christ suffered SO AS to do good. Christ suffered WHILE doing good because doing good is a part of Christ natural being. Christ cannot sin because He is the eternal uncreated Son of God (Who is the Second person of the Godhead) who came down into the flesh by way of a virgin named Mary.

again, you do not understand what true love is,

I can say the same for you. Have you read 1 Corinthians 13 lately? Can people here read your conversations from others and get the impression that you are obeying 1 Corinthians 13? How about 1 John 3:15? For it says a believer who hates his brother is considered a murderer and does not have eternal life abiding in them. Can one hate another brother with their words? Is not mocking another believer being hateful?

that is why you will not understand this until you repent.

I have no idea what your version of repentance is. But I know that the popular OSAS version of repentance is not true repentance according to the Bible. There are two different versions of OSAS repentance. The OSAS Lite version says you have to generally live a holy life and not live in sin. They say that if you do live in a life of sin, then you were never born again to begin with. But this makes one doubt the promises of God's grace that is shown to us 1 John 1:9 and Luke 18:9-14. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. The popular version of repentance is that you simply have a change of mind and you do not have to turn from your wicked ways in order to be saved.

But Jesus defines repentance for us in the Bible, though. So one cannot twist what "repentance" actually means.

Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgement against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3 and read the end of that chapter, you would learn that the Ninevites had departed from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance.

see here you go again with your strawman. If I say do not go above 55 miles an hour. and you trust me, and do everything you can to obey that law. but one day you end up late for work. and your flesh tells you if you go 70 MPH you will not be late, and it will be ok, and YOU SUCCUMB.

Not all sin is the same. Some sins lead to spiritual death and other sins DO lead to spiritual death. 1 John 5:16-18 talks about the sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. Psalm 19:12 talks about the errors or faults that we do not know always know about. These are sins that do not lead unto death. For example: One is not going to be condemned to Hell if they refused to take out the trash last week like they knew they should have done. Sins unto death are sins that Paul lists several times in the New Testament. He creates a list of sins such as murder, hate, adultery, theft, drunkenness, and idolatry. He says be not deceived in regards to this matter. For they that do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. These are sins unto spiritual death. For John also lists these sins and says that doing these types of sins will lead unto the second DEATH which is the Lake of Fire.

Have you done something so evil you will be kicked out of my (Gods) family)

Most sins can be forgiven if they are confessed; For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin (1 John 1:9). But then we are to walk in the light as he is in the light, though. For if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then.... then.... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

You see Scripture says if you break the LEAST of the law, your guilty of the WHOLE law. So in that moment when you broke the 55 MPH speed limit, you just because a murderer, an adulterer, a fornicator, a liar, one who direspects his parents, and does not love God.

It is a HUGE difference is saying it is OK to fall. than saying I will not be to PROUD to say I will never fall.

When are you going to get rid of your pride?

No, James is talking about the sin of showing respect of persons (See James 2:1-9). James is not supporting the idea that it is okay to flat out disobey God and still continue to do wrong in showing favoritism. For James continues to say that if one does not have works (fruit from God in their life), then their faith is dead (James 2:17). In other words, one cannot have an empty profession of faith with no real results to prove their faith to be true. For he that does not love does not know God.

Also, James is speaking about the Law of Liberty and not the Law of Moses. See verse 12 (James 2:12). We have a liberty in Christ. We can eat unclean foods, whereas in the Law of Moses, this was not allowed. But we are not to let our good be evil spoken of, though. We are not to let our liberty in Christ on such matters be a bad thing. For surely a loving Christian would not eat unclean animals in front of others who thought it was offensive. For Christians are to love just as Christ loved.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Why I no longer endorse sinless perfectionists

Come to find out

THEY DON'T EXIST!

well howdy

who knew

This is what is so peculiar, the absurdity of it all, in essence claiming equality with deity in holiness, as a man?! Our Lord Jesus made it clear lust and hate are equivalent to adultery and murder: sins of thought. Just one sin, we are guilty of the whole law. When matters involving bad conscience are sin, the Lord is teaching the bar is too high to meet the glory of God, only He perfect, period. Paul made his struggle clear in Romans 7. It is in what we are that we need a Savior, in the first place. Yes, the fact is these perfect don't exist, only one perfect and fulfilling the law, Jesus Christ, and we will be in corruptible flesh, in a fallen world, until we leave this world. Our righteousness is to be clothed in His righteousness, or filthy rags. Anybody claiming different is a liar, but a very bad liar. As already mentioned, I've known holy Joes, but nobody who goes around calling themselves perfect.

Consider this. Knowing what is right and failing to do so is sin. So, everybody here uses every minute of the day as God would have them use their time, does all things they should, all the time? Want to buy a bridge?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, we know the passage says that ... "he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

You are just not believing what the Word of God says here.

No. I am believing what God says.


[SUP]2 [/SUP]that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we have spent enough of our past lifetime[SUP][b][/SUP] in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries

He says exactly what I said he said..

We know this is also confirmed for us in Galtians 5:24, too. For those that are Christ's have crucfied the affections and lusts.

It does not mean they will never slip back into them from time to time. That what paul tried to tell us in romans 7, But your to proud to realise this.

You either misunderstood me or you intentionally are trying to twist my words to your advantage. That is not what I said. I said Christ suffered in doing good. That does NOT mean Christ suffered SO AS to do good. Christ suffered WHILE doing good because doing good is a part of Christ natural being. Christ cannot sin because He is the eternal uncreated Son of God (Who is the Second person of the Godhead) who came down into the flesh by way of a virgin named Mary.

Christ did not even suffer WHILE doing good. That is nonsense. Jesus would declare himself a liar when he said blessed are those who do good.

I can say the same for you. Have you read 1 Corinthians 13 lately? Can people here read your conversations from others and get the impression that you are obeying 1 Corinthians 13? How about 1 John 3:15? For it says a believer who hates his brother is considered a murderer and does not have eternal life abiding in them. Can one hate another brother with their words? Is not mocking another believer being hateful?

I do not hate my brother, I love my brothers (even if we get into arguments) I do not consider you my brother, your my enemy, and an enemy of God for perverting his gospel into a different gospel which is not from God.

I have no idea what your version of repentance is. But I know that the popular OSAS version of repentance is not true repentance according to the Bible. There are two different versions of OSAS repentance. The OSAS Lite version says you have to generally live a holy life and not live in sin. They say that if you do live in a life of sin, then you were never born again to begin with. But this makes one doubt the promises of God's grace that is shown to us 1 John 1:9 and Luke 18:9-14. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. The popular version of repentance is that you simply have a change of mind and you do not have to turn from your wicked ways in order to be saved.

But Jesus defines repentance for us in the Bible, though. So one cannot twist what "repentance" actually means.

Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgement against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3 and read the end of that chapter, you would learn that the Ninevites had departed from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance.

Another strawman, Stop trying to compair me with what you consider the popular version.

1. Your a liar, it is NOT the popular version
2. You do not know what the real version is, you show that every time you speak.
3. Your strawman arguments do nothing but make yourself look bad.

Not all sin is the same. Some sins lead to spiritual death and other sins DO lead to spiritual death. 1 John 5:16-18 talks about the sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. Psalm 19:12 talks about the errors or faults that we do not know always know about. These are sins that do not lead unto death. For example: One is not going to be condemned to Hell if they refused to take out the trash last week like they knew they should have done. Sins unto death are sins that Paul lists several times in the New Testament. He creates a list of sins such as murder, hate, adultery, theft, drunkenness, and idolatry. He says be not deceived in regards to this matter. For they that do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. These are sins unto spiritual death. For John also lists these sins and says that doing these types of sins will lead unto the second DEATH which is the Lake of Fire.



Most sins can be forgiven if they are confessed; For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin (1 John 1:9). But then we are to walk in the light as he is in the light, though. For if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then.... then.... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

the you call scripture a lie when it says if you break the LEAST of the command, Your guilty of the WHOLE LAW (meaning you might as well have commited every sin, because your judgment is the same)

No, James is talking about the sin of showing respect of persons (See James 2:1-9). James is not supporting the idea that it is okay to flat out disobey God and still continue to do wrong in showing favoritism. For James continues to say that if one does not have works (fruit from God in their life), then their faith is dead (James 2:17). In other words, one cannot have an empty profession of faith with no real results to prove their faith to be true. For he that does not love does not know God.

Also, James is speaking about the Law of Liberty and not the Law of Moses. See verse 12 (James 2:12). We have a liberty in Christ. We can eat unclean foods, whereas in the Law of Moses, this was not allowed. But we are not to let our good be evil spoken of, though. We are not to let our liberty in Christ on such matters be a bad thing. For surely a loving Christian would not eat unclean animals in front of others who thought it was offensive. For Christians are to love just as Christ loved.

see above, again, when are yuo going to humble yourself and stop excusing your sin. All you do when you claim some sin as not as bad as others, is excuse your sin. period.

 

[Jason0047]

Hey jason,nice to see you this morning. I think we already understand each other, but since you're asking a question, ill try to answer. I wont speak for every believer, but i dont think i can sin even in the spirit, it's just easier not to, with gods help. That's why walking in the spirit is encouraged. Also as ive posted before Romans speaks of when sinning there's a separation of relationship, not loss of salvation. Ive had discussions wish you before, and we hit a brick wall because of this one point and im sure today will be no different. I just wanted to answer. Have a fantasic day

Good morning. I hope God's love may shine upon you this fine day. I hope things are going well for you.

Anyways, to get down to business to the topic at hand.

There are several passages in the Bible that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Hey jason,nice to see you this morning. I think we already understand each other, but since you're asking a question, ill try to answer. I wont speak for every believer, but i dont think i can sin even in the spirit, it's just easier not to, with gods help. That's why walking in the spirit is encouraged. Also as ive posted before Romans speaks of when sinning there's a separation of relationship, not loss of salvation. Ive had discussions wish you before, and we hit a brick wall because of this one point and im sure today will be no different. I just wanted to answer. Have a fantasic day

This is the salient point you have to take away from the video. God chastises His children. Any idiot knows you don't disown your child for doing wrong, throw them out of the family. A son who fails to please you in all things doesn't stop being a son. And God, who knows all about us, including our futures, isn't going to spend time chastising His children, molding His children, in a futile effort! The fact of this chastisement of all His children is a refutation of sinless perfection, is a refutation the believer is going to be allowed to skate in sin, and also puts the lie to loss of salvation.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Lord Jesus, we magnify and extol You for Your sinless perfection.

we thank You, Most High, that what Jesus earned is freely given to undeserving sinners.

me. ♥

Ma, you're a fraud. A psycho could never say something so true, so well!

 

[Rosesrock]

Good morning. I hope God's love may shine upon you this fine day. I hope things are going well for you.

Anyways, to get down to business to the topic at hand.

There are several passages in the Bible that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

Hi thanks im fantastic....again terminology. And weve been over this.....again.

Sin separates relationship, not the loss of salvation...

Jason can i ask a personal question? You dont have to answer.

Do you have a relationship with your earthly father?

 

[KennethC]

No, we know the passage says that ... "he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

You are just not believing what the Word of God says here.

In fact, we know that "ceasing from sin" is true because this truth is also confirmed for us in Galtians 5:24, too. For it says they that are Christ's have crucfied the affections and lusts.



You either misunderstood me or you intentionally are trying to twist my words to your advantage. That is not what I said. I said Christ suffered in doing good. That does NOT mean Christ suffered SO AS to do good. Christ suffered WHILE doing good because doing good is a part of Christ natural being. Christ cannot sin because He is the eternal uncreated Son of God (Who is the Second person of the Godhead) who came down into the flesh by way of a virgin named Mary.



I can say the same for you. Have you read 1 Corinthians 13 lately? Can people here read your conversations from others and get the impression that you are obeying 1 Corinthians 13? How about 1 John 3:15? For it says a believer who hates his brother is considered a murderer and does not have eternal life abiding in them. Can one hate another brother with their words? Is not mocking another believer being hateful?



I have no idea what your version of repentance is. But I know that the popular OSAS version of repentance is not true repentance according to the Bible. There are two different versions of OSAS repentance. The OSAS Lite version says you have to generally live a holy life and not live in sin. They say that if you do live in a life of sin, then you were never born again to begin with. But this makes one doubt the promises of God's grace that is shown to us 1 John 1:9 and Luke 18:9-14. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. The popular version of repentance is that you simply have a change of mind and you do not have to turn from your wicked ways in order to be saved.

But Jesus defines repentance for us in the Bible, though. So one cannot twist what "repentance" actually means.

Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgement against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3 and read the end of that chapter, you would learn that the Ninevites had departed from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance.



Not all sin is the same. Some sins lead to spiritual death and other sins DO lead to spiritual death. 1 John 5:16-18 talks about the sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. Psalm 19:12 talks about the errors or faults that we do not know always know about. These are sins that do not lead unto death. For example: One is not going to be condemned to Hell if they refused to take out the trash last week like they knew they should have done. Sins unto death are sins that Paul lists several times in the New Testament. He creates a list of sins such as murder, hate, adultery, theft, drunkenness, and idolatry. He says be not deceived in regards to this matter. For they that do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. These are sins unto spiritual death. For John also lists these sins and says that doing these types of sins will lead unto the second DEATH which is the Lake of Fire.



Most sins can be forgiven if they are confessed; For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin (1 John 1:9). But then we are to walk in the light as he is in the light, though. For if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then.... then.... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).



No, James is talking about the sin of showing respect of persons (See James 2:1-9). James is not supporting the idea that it is okay to flat out disobey God and still continue to do wrong in showing favoritism. For James continues to say that if one does not have works (fruit from God in their life), then their faith is dead (James 2:17). In other words, one cannot have an empty profession of faith with no real results to prove their faith to be true. For he that does not love does not know God.

Also, James is speaking about the Law of Liberty and not the Law of Moses. See verse 12 (James 2:12). We have a liberty in Christ. We can eat unclean foods, whereas in the Law of Moses, this was not allowed. But we are not to let our good be evil spoken of, though. We are not to let our liberty in Christ on such matters be a bad thing. For surely a loving Christian would not eat unclean animals in front of others who thought it was offensive. For Christians are to love just as Christ loved.

Jason that is a bad example to use to prove your point.

Taking out the trash is not a law, and therefore if you don't take it out to the curb on trash day that week it is not a sin.
That is a personal choice to take the trash out that day or not, and if refused to do it that day that week does not make it sin.

Second those lists of sins that Apostle Paul gives are not unforgivable sins, every single one of them can be forgiven of if repented/confessed of. The difference is just that as nowhere in the bible does it place them as automatically unforgivable, and what it states is those who "continue" to do those things.

This means those who never stop committing those sins they will lead to death, but if a person has done any of those sins in Paul's lists once or even multiple times in their life and then repented/confessed them and did not do them again they will still be forgiven and go to heaven...

I have a question for you; Do you believe if a person repents/confesses on their death bed they will be forgiven ???

 

[Jason0047]

Christ did not even suffer WHILE doing good. That is nonsense. Jesus would declare himself a liar when he said blessed are those who do good.

So you are saying that one can do "true good" without God? I do not believe that. People of this world may do good, but it is not really the goodness of God that is flowing thru them when they do good. There is a difference between the world's version of goodness and God's version of goodness that works in the believer. For there is none good but God. All true goodness and righteousness does not come from a person but it comes from God. Seeing Jesus Christ is naturally God, He could only do good (And He was not capable of doing any kind of bad).

I do not hate my brother, I love my brothers (even if we get into arguments) I do not consider you my brother, your my enemy,

Jesus says we are to pray and to do good towards our enemies. Paul says we are to speak full of grace seasoned with salt. I do not really seeing you doing that. There are many times you mock me. This is not of God.

and an enemy of God for perverting his gospel into a different gospel which is not from God.

But your gospel is not the same one in the Bible, though. The Scriptures say we are to obey the gospel and we are to fulfill the worthiness of his calling by "fulfilling all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power."

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Therefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:8-11).

This is of course in context also that says, "that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer:" So how are we counted worthy of the Kingdom of God? Are we to suffer for well doing or wrong doing?

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15).

Another strawman, Stop trying to compair me with what you consider the popular version.

Why are you not answering the question then? Surely it would be good for you to clarify your position on repentance to help others, right? Can your version of repentance be supported by the Bible?

1. Your a liar, it is NOT the popular version

I talked with many who believe they can abide in unrepentant sin (Like lying, lusting, and hating) and still think they are saved. So no. I am not lying, but I am speaking from experience.

see above, again, when are yuo going to humble yourself and stop excusing your sin. All you do when you claim some sin as not as bad as others, is excuse your sin. period.

I do not make excuses for sin. You do not know my life enough to judge it. You cannot read my thoughts or record my every day habits and thoughts. To make such a judgment when you do not know my life is wrong. Unless I have specifically done some kind of wrong in the open publically for you to point out, then that is different. But to just assume wrong about another believer when they did not do any kind of wrong is not right. But I understand your frustration. You cannot help to do what you are doing now. God has already spoken about this already within His Word. So I will pray for you.

 

[ember]

This is what is so peculiar, the absurdity of it all, in essence claiming equality with deity in holiness, as a man?! Our Lord Jesus made it clear lust and hate are equivalent to adultery and murder: sins of thought. Just one sin, we are guilty of the whole law. When matters involving bad conscience are sin, the Lord is teaching the bar is too high to meet the glory of God, only He perfect, period. Paul made his struggle clear in Romans 7. It is in what we are that we need a Savior, in the first place. Yes, the fact is these perfect don't exist, only one perfect and fulfilling the law, Jesus Christ, and we will be in corruptible flesh, in a fallen world, until we leave this world. Our righteousness is to be clothed in His righteousness, or filthy rags. Anybody claiming different is a liar, but a very bad liar. As already mentioned, I've known holy Joes, but nobody who goes around calling themselves perfect.

Consider this. Knowing what is right and failing to do so is sin. So, everybody here uses every minute of the day as God would have them use their time, does all things they should, all the time? Want to buy a bridge?

just so..... It's hurtful and spiritually ignorant and very damaging

I've known a few holy joes too...in my own family actually...I was forever being told 'I need to come back to Jesus' because I disagreed. I also got the 'God told me to tell you' message on occasion until one day I yelled (yes I yelled) back 'You haven't heard from God and He hasn't told you a thing.' Well, that brought about silence, but initiated a war behind my back with the result that my entire family ( and some 'friends') turned against me because of lies told them (sans my dad who had passed away by then cause otherwise, it never would have happened)

yeah, nothing like showing the love of Christ

I honestly have not been the same since all of that went down even though by now family members kind of sheepishly acknowedged me again and called the other person a liar...but you know, the damage was done and it hurts so much to know that people you thought really knew you, can turn and rend you like a wild pig on the word of someone who is/was known for their exaggeration and downright lies

I guess we all face the reality of hatred for taking the position of I'm not going to buckle under your desire to control and dominate anymore

I see an attempt to do exactly that in the sinless crowd. Can you just imagine being called to task for every little thing and some you may not even know about because your cult leader called you and demands repentance and possibly restitution?

Cause lets not kid ourselves...with the iron buckled belt they wield, you gotta know there is pain aplenty there for all and especially for those they call out

I would not want to sit in that congregation for anything!!! Jesus was already scrourged on my behalf...we don't get to do it to other believers...at least not in my books!

ps...God knows all about what happened to me so no worries

 

[KennethC]

Hi thanks im fantastic....again terminology. And weve been over this.....again.

Sin separates relationship, not the loss of salvation...

Jason can i ask a personal question? You dont have to answer.

Do you have a relationship with your earthly father?

The separation of relationship/fellowship by sinning is only based on rather or not when one has backslidden they repent/confess of that sin and return to the Lord. Only then can one say only fellowship was broken, but the bible says and shows that if a person continues in those sinful ways without stopping them by repentance/confession and return to the Lord then their soul will not be saved.

James 5:19-20 clearly states this and Apostle Paul says a few times only those who continue in the faith and overcome their old sinful lifestyles to become a new creation having victory over sin will receive eternal life. We can no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk (Ephesians 4:17) is Paul saying we can no longer walk in those continuous sinful ways.

Hebrews 10:39 says some believers will draw back to perdition by returning to their sinful ways they refuse to give up, and thus they trample on the Son of God and His blood. Perdition means they have returned to a path that will lead to spiritual death in the lake of fire, and Paul told the Galatians that left the true gospel to return to justification of the law that Christ remission of their sins has no longer become of any effect to them and they have fallen from God's grace....Galatians 5:4

 

[gb9]

correct. we cannot read your thoughts, but you also cannot read ours. so when you well you believe this you believe that, then you are claiming to be able to read our thoughts. just because someone disagrees with you does not make them evil. this was in response to false claim, oops I mean post #111

 

[Jason0047]

Jason that is a bad example to use to prove your point.

Taking out the trash is not a law, and therefore if you don't take it out to the curb on trash day that week it is not a sin.
That is a personal choice to take the trash out that day or not, and if refused to do it that day that week does not make it sin.

Second those lists of sins that Apostle Paul gives are not unforgivable sins, every single one of them can be forgiven of if repented/confessed of. The difference is just that as nowhere in the bible does it place them as automatically unforgivable, and what it states is those who "continue" to do those things.

This means those who never stop committing those sins they will lead to death, but if a person has done any of those sins in Paul's lists once or even multiple times in their life and then repented/confessed them and did not do them again they will still be forgiven and go to heaven...

I have a question for you; Do you believe if a person repents/confesses on their death bed they will be forgiven ???

The Scriptures say to him to knoweth to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin. For example: If you live in certain areas where not taking out the trash on time can lead to having bears come into your house looking for some good smelly fun to dig into then surely you should know it is better to take the trash out on time so as to protect your family from such a thing. The same can be said if you live in Texas because of the bugs. Or if you live in Arizona because of the scorpions. You are protecting your home from unwanted critters or creatures that can cause problems for you and your home. So no. It is good to take the trash out on time. Also, certain house guests who stop by unexpectedly could think you are lazy; Which could leave a poor testimony or witness in your service to Jesus Christ, too.

 

[Jason0047]

correct. we cannot read your thoughts, but you also cannot read ours. so when you well you believe this you believe that, then you are claiming to be able to read our thoughts. just because someone disagrees with you does not make them evil. this was in response to false claim, oops I mean post #111

I do not judge a person's thoughts here. I judge only a wrong belief (According to the Bible). I usually strive to talk in the third person about this wrong belief. If a person holds to the wrong belief (Which the Bible warns against), then it is God's Word and not me that will condemn a person on the last day. If a person does not hold to the wrong belief that I am speaking against, then there is no reason for them to get upset or to take it personally.

 

[skylove7]

Question to Jason.
Are you going to praise a man. For living a physical sin free life.
You cant read a persons mind.
They may have sins in their mind.
Violent or perverted. You know?

 

[Jason0047]

The Scriptures say to him to knoweth to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin. For example: If you live in certain areas where not taking out the trash on time can lead to having bears come into your house looking for some good smelly fun to dig into then surely you should know it is better to take the trash out on time so as to protect your family from such a thing. The same can be said if you live in Texas because of the bugs. Or if you live in Arizona because of the scorpions. You are protecting your home from unwanted critters or creatures that can cause problems for you and your home. So no. It is good to take the trash out on time. Also, certain house guests who stop by unexpectedly could think you are lazy; Which could leave a poor testimony or witness in your service to Jesus Christ, too.

Granted, not every believer is going to always be perfect their entire life, but with Jesus Christ, they can be (As you surely know).

 

[Rosesrock]

The separation of relationship/fellowship by sinning is only based on rather or not when one has backslidden they repent/confess of that sin and return to the Lord. Only then can one say only fellowship was broken, but the bible says and shows that if a person continues in those sinful ways without stopping them by repentance/confession and return to the Lord then their soul will not be saved.

James 5:19-20 clearly states this and Apostle Paul says a few times only those who continue in the faith and overcome their old sinful lifestyles to become a new creation having victory over sin will receive eternal life. We can no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk (Ephesians 4:17) is Paul saying we can no longer walk in those continuous sinful ways.

Hebrews 10:39 says some believers will draw back to perdition by returning to their sinful ways they refuse to give up, and thus they trample on the Son of God and His blood. Perdition means they have returned to a path that will lead to spiritual death in the lake of fire, and Paul told the Galatians that left the true gospel to return to justification of the law that Christ remission of their sins has no longer become of any effect to them and they have fallen from God's grace....Galatians 5:4

Again i respectfully disgree. That's why 2 cor talks about we war spiritually not carnally.....and resisting the devil he will flee.
Romans 4 talks of strongholds, which the alord knew we would face. Even in the stronghold of sin, we are STILL his.
When we submit, come back to him, relationship is restored.
There's no level of sin, or length of time .

 

[Jason0047]

Question to Jason.
Are you going to praise a man. For living a physical sin free life.
You cant read a persons mind.
They may have sins in their mind.
Violent or perverted. You know?

No. I would strive to not boast in a brother's claim that he is living a sin free life (as if he deserves the credit). I would give the praise to God and not praise to the person. I will be happy that he agrees in "sinless perfectionism" because it is taught in the Bible. But my boasting will be in God and not the believer. Why? Because I know it is Christ (God) who helps the believer to stop sinning and it is not the believer in and of themselves. For we are to pray so as not to be led into temptation. We are to hide God's Word within our hearts so as not to sin against Him. These are all things that involve the working of God. We cannot take the credit for them. God draws us and He works within us. All praise, glory, honor, and power goes to Jesus Christ and not to another person. For it is why the 24 elders had cast down their crowns before Jesus. For it was Christ working within them. For the Scriptures say that Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This was not just at the cross but also in a believer's life, too.