Busted: "Sinless" Perfectionists Debunked

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again you come in on the middle of a discussion and show you did not even take the time to read what I or others have written by these two posts.

For I posed that question to Jason to see if he believed a last minute confession/repentance will have a person be saved unto eternal life. This does not give a believer free will to sin when they no the truth on how they are suppose to walk, but does show a person who has lived their whole life in enmity to God can still be saved on their death bed. However we are told not to hold off on walking properly and on confessing/repenting of sins because we are not guaranteed tomorrow, and if you die without repenting then salvation will not be yours at judgment.

Then the link I posted shows over 200 scriptures from the bible that refutes eternal security, and that is an awful lot to say they have been taking out of context by you. I have talked to many supporters of that doctrine and usually the result is the same, and that is pulling one scripture out of a passage and trying to make it stand alone. Just like what was done with Ephesians 4:30, as you can not have that scripture stand alone when the rest of chapter 4 and chapter 5 have to be taken into account as well.

As Apostle Paul states you are sealed by the Holy Spirit tell the day of redemption, unless as he goes on to say if you continue in lewdness sinful behavior and as previously mentioned break that unity with the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3).

yep. I have read those verses over and over, they do not refute eternal security. I used to believe the way you do until I stopped listening to men, and started to study the word of God.

You have been given many verses which show what we have in christ the moment we are saved, now yu want a bible which contradicts those verses.

Sorry, My bible does not contradict. nice try though

 

[KennethC]

This is what Ephesians 1:13 says: And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God Rom. 10:17) the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised holy Spirit who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of HIS glory - NOT OUR GLORY . . . 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption - How do we grieve God? By using unwholesome talk, bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, any form of malice - How not to grieve God - using words that are helpful for building others up according to their needs, being kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another.

Actually I was using Ephesians 1:13 - still doesn't say we lose our salvation - If a believer WALKS in hatred, bitterness, fornication or any other uncleanness which is sinful behavior they have NO inheritance - as in rewards . . Read 1 Cor. 3 about how we build upon our foundation in Christ.

Ephesians 2:6 - MENTAL PLACEMENT?????? It says: And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him (Christ) in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus . . For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God --- so you are telling me that this is just a mental placement? And you are also telling me that God takes back his gift of salvation? 4:3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace by (4:2) being completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love - this is unity within the body. v17 no longer live as the Gentiles do in the futility of their thinking - Gentiles? I am in the body of Christ where there is neither Jew nor Gentile . . . I have a sin nature - I have a divine nature - these to are contrary one to the other - I will have battles, I will be weak in some areas - Christ did not have a sin nature! I learn of Christ and endeavor to live as he did - I renew my mind so that I can have the mind of Christ - but I still have to deal with a sin nature - so it sometimes is a battle - I continue to run the race, and fight the fight . . . in MY WALK but not to gain or maintain salvation.

As do you PICK out verses and try to have them stand alone . . . You need to read Romans 7 - Did Paul ever lose his salvation?

Once again you are taking scriptures and trying to make them stand alone, and avoiding the ones that says what happens to those who do not repent/confess and return to the Lord. Continuing to grieve the Holy Spirit by denying His guidance on how to walk properly in the faith to continue to walk in lewdness.

I have read Romans 7 and Apostle Paul is not talking about how he continued to walk in that chapter, that once again is another false teaching of the osas doctrine. Apostle Paul clearly shows a transition in the faith from a babe in Christ (new believer) to a mature believer in Christ to where then there is no longer condemnation.

Romans 7
Paul was still carnally minded and under the law/sold under sin.........

Romans 8
Paul now was walking by the Spirit and no longer carnally minded...........

If you do not see the transition that Paul made from Romans 7 to Romans 8 then you have been taught wrongly how to follow those chapters.


Apostle Paul did not lose salvation because he fought the good fight and kept the faith tell the end;

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

Apostle Paul believed and taught that one must keep the faith in order to receive salvation, as there are many scriptures from him that state this. Paul warned continuously to not fall from the faith, and James also showed in his epistle that the persons soul is not saved if they wander from the faith/truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again you are taking scriptures and trying to make them stand alone, and avoiding the ones that says what happens to those who do not repent/confess and return to the Lord. Continuing to grieve the Holy Spirit by denying His guidance on how to walk properly in the faith to continue to walk in lewdness.

I have read Romans 7 and Apostle Paul is not talking about how he continued to walk in that chapter, that once again is another false teaching of the osas doctrine. Apostle Paul clearly shows a transition in the faith from a babe in Christ (new believer) to a mature believer in Christ to where then there is no longer condemnation.

Romans 7
Paul was still carnally minded and under the law/sold under sin.........

Romans 8
Paul now was walking by the Spirit and no longer carnally minded...........

If you do not see the transition that Paul made from Romans 7 to Romans 8 then you have been taught wrongly how to follow those chapters.


Apostle Paul did not lose salvation because he fought the good fight and kept the faith tell the end;

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

Apostle Paul believed and taught that one must keep the faith in order to receive salvation, as there are many scriptures from him that state this. Paul warned continuously to not fall from the faith, and James also showed in his epistle that the persons soul is not saved if they wander from the faith/truth.

Wow. talk about twisting the word of God.

In chapter 7. Paul spoke of the stuggle he was going through with the two natures waring within his soul (sorry, he had no war before he was saved, all he had was the flesh)

In chapter 8 Paul tells us how he won those battles.

Paul NEVER taught one had to keep faith to keep salvation. Most of what paul spoke of was fighting legalism (people like you) and how to sanctify ourselves in Christ, But he spent many passages (especially the first 2 chapters of ephesians) showing how SECURE WE ARE IN CHRIST.

Your legalism will not save you my friend, your putting yourself under law. And not under grace,

 

[KennethC]

yep. I have read those verses over and over, they do not refute eternal security. I used to believe the way you do until I stopped listening to men, and started to study the word of God.

You have been given many verses which show what we have in christ the moment we are saved, now yu want a bible which contradicts those verses.

Sorry, My bible does not contradict. nice try though

Well that is where you are wrong because OSAS was started by a man, it is not in the bible nor was it taught in the early church by the original Apostles.

I don't listen to men, as I listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I take what others say and see if it matches with the word of God. Test the spirits to see what they are saying is true, and osas does not line up unless you pull scriptures out of context and try to make them stand alone.

I have been given few verses, not many, that have been taken out of context and pulled out to stand alone.
In return I have come back with more than over 300 scripture at any given time to refute that doctrine that was not heard of in the first 4 centuries of the church......The term osas was not even coined and followed wide spread tell the 1500's, as the term eternal security was used for a couple centuries before this. But even so that doctrine has been refuted and proven false many of times over the years, including by writings of the original Apostles in the 1st century of the church.

That is right your bible does not contradict, as the word of God can not contradict.
But when you take and pull verses out and make them stand alone, and in turn avoid many many many others then that is contradictory and false context.......


[h=1]James 5:19-20New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Bring Back the Erring One[/h]19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


Strong's and Thayers Greek study guide:

5590. psuché

​

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17;ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς,James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20;σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

 

[KennethC]

Wow. talk about twisting the word of God.

In chapter 7. Paul spoke of the stuggle he was going through with the two natures waring within his soul (sorry, he had no war before he was saved, all he had was the flesh)

In chapter 8 Paul tells us how he won those battles.

Paul NEVER taught one had to keep faith to keep salvation. Most of what paul spoke of was fighting legalism (people like you) and how to sanctify ourselves in Christ, But he spent many passages (especially the first 2 chapters of ephesians) showing how SECURE WE ARE IN CHRIST.

Your legalism will not save you my friend, your putting yourself under law. And not under grace,

What, yes he did !!!

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.


2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.


1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.






Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


Colossians 1:22-23


In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Your legalism will not save you my friend, your putting yourself under law. And not under grace,

It all comes down to their god is a stupid god. You have to conclude this. All the scripture of the Lord chastising His children would be beyond silly, if there were those He knows are just going to be tossed into the lake of fire. Their god is not omniscient or omnipotent, is really rather of an impotent klutz as they describe, that wastes his time, with watered-down blood of the cross and a very flawed, iffy plan one can't trust, an Indian giver of gifts, breaker of promises, one must suppose their explanation of the time wasting chastising that somebody eternal has much time to waste? Disowns children? Is putting on some show? This is as if not to mention scripture already given confirms that the Lord doesn't bother chastising the bastards, at all, in fact, does not waste effort on them. Their whole theology is lala land the Bible doesn't support, a Bible they do not understand.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Once again you are taking scriptures and trying to make them stand alone, and avoiding the ones that says what happens to those who do not repent/confess and return to the Lord. Continuing to grieve the Holy Spirit by denying His guidance on how to walk properly in the faith to continue to walk in lewdness.

Well . . . all I did was take the scripture YOU used and expounded upon them. Maybe you ought to read them again.

I have read Romans 7 and Apostle Paul is not talking about how he continued to walk in that chapter, that once again is another false teaching of the osas doctrine. Apostle Paul clearly shows a transition in the faith from a babe in Christ (new believer) to a mature believer in Christ to where then there is no longer condemnation.

Romans 7
Paul was still carnally minded and under the law/sold under sin.........

Anyone who is carnal is in the flesh, which is the same as the old man nature. We are all still in the flesh until we die - so - we have these two natures warring against each other. Now IF Paul were speaking before he was born again - he wouldn't have these two warring inside him - He wouldn't care if he lived by the flesh or not - he wouldn't have the conflict inside himself - For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that I do not; but what I hate that I do . . . That which he wants to do he doesn't do but he ends up doing that which he hates (sin) . . . For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do . . .

Romans 8
Paul now was walking by the Spirit and no longer carnally minded...........

If you do not see the transition that Paul made from Romans 7 to Romans 8 then you have been taught wrongly how to follow those chapters.

Yes, we are to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh - Again notice the word WALK . . . Paul shows the conflict in Romans 7 between the flesh and the Spirit . . and in Romans 8 tells us that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. . . And if Christ be in you, the body is DEAD because of sin; but the Spirit is LIFE because of righteousness - How are we made righteous? by OUR works or by the work of Jesus Christ through faith?

Apostle Paul did not lose salvation because he fought the good fight and kept the faith tell the end;

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

Apostle Paul believed and taught that one must keep the faith in order to receive salvation, as there are many scriptures from him that state this. Paul warned continuously to not fall from the faith, and James also showed in his epistle that the persons soul is not saved if they wander from the faith/truth.

I never said the Paul lost salvation - I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness which the Lord the righteous judge shall give me at that day: and not to me only but unto all them also that love his appearing. REWARD . . . .

We too fight the good fight in our WALK for we will give an account before the judgment seat of Christ for the things done in this body - whether good or bad - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:10

1 Cor. 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Utah]

It's been a learning experience in spiritual quackery, the web. I never recall, in real life, knowing anybody claiming sinless perfection. I've know holy Joes, a sociopathic sort of control freak "Christian," a Bible thumper who's quick to see what's wrong with everybody else that doesn't conform to their will. You know the type, prophet wannabes, looking for attention and a cult following.

Oddly, such holy Joes most always seem to be found insufferable and abusive in their families, nobody comfortable around them, often adulterous of their spouses: walking, narcissistic hypocrites, dirty laundry piled in that closet. The higher they rise, the harder they fall. Yet the holy Joes I've come across have not claimed sinlessness, despite their pretense of holiness. Maybe it's just implied, something they're smart enough not to go around saying.

Come to find, of the following gem of a video, in words of one of my favorite preachers of old, that this problem has existed for sometime, clearly. You learn something new everyday.

If you've found yourself running across a sinless purveyor of doubt as to the salvation of the Lord, and in slander of your soul, impugning your assurance and relationship to your Lord, this video will much interest you.

Matthew 23:23-4 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

A few years ago I went to visit a new patient in the nursing home whom I had yet to meet. I stood outside his room and spoke with his wife. She informed me that he would not talk with me because I was not the right denomination for him, aka, I was not good enough in his eyes. And though he was a layman, when it came to "church" he was always in charge and it was his way or the highway. He was a narcissistic control freak.

As his wife and I spoke, I peered into his room and made eye contact with him. He was pitiful. He sat forward in his bed with oxygen in place, trying to catch his breath. There was no more tough guy, control freak with a narcissistic, his way or the highway attitude, but rather, a broken man who swam in a cesspool of humility, not knowing or understanding the love or grace of God. Death could not come soon enough. He died three days later a broken man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well that is where you are wrong because OSAS was started by a man, it is not in the bible nor was it taught in the early church by the original Apostles.

I don't listen to men, as I listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I take what others say and see if it matches with the word of God. Test the spirits to see what they are saying is true, and osas does not line up unless you pull scriptures out of context and try to make them stand alone.

I have been given few verses, not many, that have been taken out of context and pulled out to stand alone.
In return I have come back with more than over 300 scripture at any given time to refute that doctrine that was not heard of in the first 4 centuries of the church......The term osas was not even coined and followed wide spread tell the 1500's, as the term eternal security was used for a couple centuries before this. But even so that doctrine has been refuted and proven false many of times over the years, including by writings of the original Apostles in the 1st century of the church.

That is right your bible does not contradict, as the word of God can not contradict.
But when you take and pull verses out and make them stand alone, and in turn avoid many many many others then that is contradictory and false context.......


James 5:19-20New King James Version (NKJV)

Bring Back the Erring One

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


Strong's and Thayers Greek study guide:

5590. psuché

​

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνεινὑπέρτῶνψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17;ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινεςστρατεύονταικατάτῆςψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοποςτῶνψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειντάςψυχάς,James 1:21; ψυχήνἐκθανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20;σωτηρίαψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειντάςψυχάςἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάςψυχάςπιστῷκτίστῃπαρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

Well thats were your wrong. ETERNAL security was first taught in the NT by Jesus himself maybe you have heard of him? He said we who believe HAVE (present tense) ETERNAL LIFE.

As for your false gospel of works. It is not new, it started with Cain Trying to use human good to please God,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What, yes he did !!!

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.


2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.


1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.






Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


Colossians 1:22-23


In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Yep. Paul contradicted himself.

Non of those passages speak of the ability to lose salvation.

1 Those saved WILL do Gods commands, (as apposed to those unsaved who are UNABLE to do Gods commands)
2 Lay hold of the possession GOD GAVE YOU (ETERNAL LIFE) for only by this can you fight the good fight (you legalists who deny eternal life is secure, have no power to fight but your self will)
3. foundation is christ, by which we who have eternal life lay hold of it (wow dude you think this proves OSAS is a lie. where did you learn to read)
4. your 4th passage does not even deal with salvation. so not sure why you would even use it.
5. speaks of the ability to save our physical lives from pain and destruction. Nothing to do with eternal life (which timothy already had)
6 Speaks of the gentiles taking over from Isreal as keepers of Gods word. and representatives to the world. not induvidual people (don't you know how to use context) He is telling us gentiles not to make the mistake the jews made, and get puffed up in pride. otherwise God will cut us off like he cut them off
7. true faith vs mere belief(which never saved anyone. We should never assume anyone has true faith in God and are saved, we should always teach them to continue in what we CLAIM we have faith in. (not everyone paul wrote to was saved.. even you should know that!

 

[JesusIsAll]

A few years ago I went to visit a new patient in the nursing home whom I had yet to meet. I stood outside his room and spoke with his wife. She informed me that he would not talk with me because I was not the right denomination for him, aka, I was not good enough in his eyes. And though he was a layman, when it came to "church" he was always in charge and it was his way or the highway. He was a narcissistic control freak.

As his wife and I spoke, I peered into his room and made eye contact with him. He was pitiful. He sat forward in his bed with oxygen in place, trying to catch his breath. There was no more tough guy, control freak with a narcissistic, his way or the highway attitude, but rather, a broken man who swam in a cesspool of humility, not knowing or understanding the love or grace of God. Death could not come soon enough. He died three days later a broken man.

That is so sad! But it is the reality. So many fold like a cheap suit when that time comes, no Holy Spirit faith, trust and assurance in the Lord. You also have the suddenly nervous atheists in the foxholes, and the likes of huge egos like Voltaire or Nietzsche, who died in despair. On the other hand is the saint that leaves with smile on their lips, ready to meet their Lord, solely on His terms. But there is, sadly, that wrong denomination.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Colossians 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[Elin]

There is nothing new under the sun.

The Lords tender mercies are new everyday.

Only works when you understand that saved from the power of sin now and saved from the presence of sin in eternity.

Those old time preachers had a grasp of scripture that only comes from diligent study and prayer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

'Tis the lack of that diligent study that is a pox on the professing church.

 

[Elin]

some of the refutations of salvation by God's grace alone, that I have seen here in this forum, amounts to fanaticism IMO

and such, that can only be explained by the urgency of a foreign spirit that has absolutely nothing to do with God's Spirit

It is the teaching of seducing spirits who avail themselves as angels of light to those who fancy themselves far up the rung on the gifted teacher scale while in reality, they haven't even got a ladder

It's a general sense among many of this generation that learning isn't necessary or even important,
spawned by the lack of real education going on in many school systems.

 

[Elin]

sigh. my 'like' button finger is sleepy.

but my sister just sent me A.W. Tozer's The Knowledge of the Holy.

it wasn't written that long ago, and it honors and elevates the Most High above the creation.

if you can imagine.

ps-- i know nothing about Tozer, but this little book is pretty good.

He's one of the "classics."

 

[ember]

They are complete monsters. They share a trait common with psychopathic criminals. At the heart of it is the desire, the need, to control others, a pathological narcissism. (Ironic, it's mainly based in being very fearful people, fearing everything and everybody in a paranoid way as to need to control everything in their environment to feel secure, hence especially impossible to confront being helpless and repentant before God.) Our Lord was very hard on the Scribes and Pharisees, for this very reason, a criminal, blind self righteousness, that places self on the throne.

yes...so I've learned. apparently the very insecure feel secure by making normal people look up for the next thing that is going to whack them in the head haha

and lies? oh momma....with a straight face while singing Jesus loves me but He does not love you...whoooo

ok I'm being funny but that is actually how it is

oh, as long as you give their due (worship) everything is all kissy kissy lovely but don't disagree cause then the dam that holds the real beast is going to let it loose

another thing...seems this type also likes to feast on the bodies of the sincere believer more than anything else

 

[JesusIsAll]

It's a general sense among many of this generation that learning isn't necessary or even important,
spawned by the lack of real education going on in many school systems.

Not just theology, you see this in about all walks, those who disdain experts and education, it seems always those uneducated, whom you'd have to think would argue for getting surgery from a supermarket butcher. But there's no nobility in ignorance, nor any excuses. Those without formal education have the world of the same materials and can read, libraries even a free service. But those who refuse learning from their betters in knowledge are simply doomed, on one level or another. Education is all about assimilating the knowledge of others who paved the way.

 

[Elin]

Yeah, I was completely oblivious the second coming had already occurred, and He changed His name to Phil. Last time he attacked me, it was for not being dirty minded enough. Definitely need to check that moon phase, hang some garlic around the screen, something...

Mercy, mercy. . .

 

[JesusIsAll]

another thing...seems this type also likes to feast on the bodies of the sincere believer more than anything else

The sincere believer is the greatest threat, truth on many levels a threat to the house of cards they live in. Just people who can stand on their own two feet, who evaluate and make their own decisions, are a threat, regardless religious convictions. Those with a lot of inner fear are scared of those who don't share that weakness. I remember once reading an essay about solitude, that mentioned the Lord Jesus and others being hated for being such a threat among the fearful and weak, that people can't stand somebody who is outside the comfort of the herd, to the extent they'd like to purge, kill the nonconformists, whose very strength is terrifying to them.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Mercy, mercy. . .

Pert near suspekt dey's sum looonees what havin nervus brakedown et da Kingdom Hall 'n be comin ta' chat, don' ya know'd? Everthin seem sinless perfekt iffin yoo leeves dat buildin, mercy 'o da' eskape!

 

[Jason0047]

Yep. Paul contradicted himself.

Non of those passages speak of the ability to lose salvation.

1 Those saved WILL do Gods commands, (as apposed to those unsaved who are UNABLE to do Gods commands)
2 Lay hold of the possession GOD GAVE YOU (ETERNAL LIFE) for only by this can you fight the good fight (you legalists who deny eternal life is secure, have no power to fight but your self will)
3. foundation is christ, by which we who have eternal life lay hold of it (wow dude you think this proves OSAS is a lie. where did you learn to read)
4. your 4th passage does not even deal with salvation. so not sure why you would even use it.
5. speaks of the ability to save our physical lives from pain and destruction. Nothing to do with eternal life (which timothy already had)
6 Speaks of the gentiles taking over from Isreal as keepers of Gods word. and representatives to the world. not induvidual people (don't you know how to use context) He is telling us gentiles not to make the mistake the jews made, and get puffed up in pride. otherwise God will cut us off like he cut them off
7. true faith vs mere belief(which never saved anyone. We should never assume anyone has true faith in God and are saved, we should always teach them to continue in what we CLAIM we have faith in. (not everyone paul wrote to was saved.. even you should know that!

So what is the Parable of the Sower about if it is not dealing with those who endure and are fruitful versus say those who do not endure and fall away from the faith? What exactly is the parable of the sower talking about then?

We learn in the Parable that there is:

#1. The "seed sown in stony places type person" who endures for a while because he is offended by the Word when they are persecuted (Matthew 13:20-21).

#2. The "seed sown in among thorns type person" who ends up having the Word choked in their life because of the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of this life (and they are unfruitful) (Matthew 13:22).

#3. The "seed sown in good ground type person" who ends up hearing the Word and understands it and bears forth much fruit. (Matthew 13:23). This really does not sound like the Once Saved Always Saved type person who believes they can sin and still be saved.​

Now, if you try to say that Type #1 and Type #2 believers were never saved to begin with, then that would not exactly be true. How so? Let's look at the first person who was unable to receive the seed of the word of God.

"When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the way side." (Matthew 13:19).

The "seed by the way side type person" is he who does not receive the seed of Word in their heart; This is the unbeliever whereby the wicked one takes the seed of the Word out of their heart before they are able to even understand it. Yet, we know in verse 20-21 that the Type #1 believer who received the seed into stony places had received the Word with joy. One cannot have joy in receiving God's Word if they are an unbeliever. This is speaking about a believer. The same is true for the Type #2 believer who hears the Word. You cannot hear the Word and not have faith. For the Scriptures say that faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). So yes, a person can fall away from the faith if they do not endure in the faith. That is what the Parable of the Sower is all about.

For if you say.... "Hey, a true believer must produce works to show that their faith is true" Then you are laying conditions that one must have fruits in their life or they are not saved. It is no different than what the Parable of the Sower is teaching (In the fact that believers have to be fruitful and endure in their faith for it to be a true faith), either.