Busted: "Sinless" Perfectionists Debunked

[JesusIsAll]

IDK...can't the same be said for a god that knows his adopted children are wholly incapable of ever maturing in the stature and image of his firstborn? Why chastise them at all?

It has nothing to do about what can be said. It is about what the Bible says, which contradicts all the contrary claims made by those of false exegesis. The video is taken straight from a lot of scripture, none of this about what Joe Blow has to say. It is what the Bible states of chastisement, period. Truth is never about what Joe Blow has to say.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

IDK...can't the same be said for a god that knows his adopted children are wholly incapable of ever maturing in the stature and image of his firstborn? Why chastise them at all?

It isn't about chastisement. It is about heavenly reward, laying treasures up in heaven. Chastisement is what awaits those in their natural state, who have never given themselves over to their Creator, but sought instead human pleasures, human success, human attainment.

Those who have given themselves over to their Creator find that His gifts and callings far outweigh anything those who stubbornly cling to self can possibly hope to see in this world, not knowing they have no hope of seeing anything but misery and defeat in the next.

 

[JesusIsAll]

It isn't about chastisement. It is about heavenly reward, laying treasures up in heaven. Chastisement is what awaits those in their natural state, who have never given themselves over to their Creator, but sought instead human pleasures, human success, human attainment.

Those who have given themselves over to their Creator find that His gifts and callings far outweigh anything those who stubbornly cling to self can possibly hope to see in this world, not knowing they have no hope of seeing anything but misery and defeat in the next.

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Isaiah 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[Yahshua]

Were they believers to begin with??? You are known by your fruit...

Yeah, that's the premise of my question. They were believers to begin with.

But from what I get from your reply, that means there are those who thought, for years, that they were saved...they thought, said and did everything a believer in God would think, say and do...they believed in Christ...and yet one day, when they change their thoughts to no longer believe, the reality is (as you say) they were never believers to begin with?

Wouldn't it be easier to just accept scripture that says those who do no continue in their faith/belief in Christ; who fall away, lose their salvation and enter into judgment again?

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Colossians 1:22-23
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

 

[JesusIsAll]

A note on this, I did a blog post, given a little more time to spend on it last night, better assembled than this thread as to having more the points in one place, anybody interested it's here.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Yeah, that's the premise of my question. They were believers to begin with.

The congregation is a mixture of believers and unbelievers of false conversion experiences, the virgins without oil in their lamps, Loadiceans. Prophecy in scripture is to this mixed congregation, even those letters to the churches, warnings to those playing church, those on the fence, professors who are not possessors in the midst of the body of Christ.

It's failure to understand this that leads to all the exegetical error of those who deny eternal security. There is something you cannot provide. Not one verse of a believer being unborn again, unsealed, uncalled, unchosen, unpredestined, God breaking a promise, temporary eternal life (!): you don't see any of that in scripture.

The reading of Hebrews 6 of those exposed to the things of God, as everybody convicted of sin is drawn and tastes the Holy Spirit, even, fails to see they are not born again, that Paul is making a warning to "them," which turns to "beloved" and "you" in verse 9, who have the things pertaining to salvation, the simple fact of the matter,

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

You who do so, continue to go around spreading doubt, instead of uplifting faith and trust in the Lord, and telling believers they are not saved, do so at your own peril.

 

[Yahshua]

It has nothing to do about what can be said. It is about what the Bible says, which contradicts all the contrary claims made by those of false exegesis. The video is taken straight from a lot of scripture, none of this about what Joe Blow has to say. It is what the Bible states of chastisement, period. Truth is never about what Joe Blow has to say.

I agree its about what the bible says about chastisement...not anyone's personal commentary.

The Bible says...

Hebrews 12:8-10
But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but [God] disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The goal is the reach the same stature and fullness of Christ. Christ was sinless. That's the goal. A sinful person can't be holy, and a holy person isn't sinful. The goal is to become holy like Christ.

Ephesians 4:12-13
for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the [priests of God] and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have [people] who will [worship] in righteousness.

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


That's all one should try to do, is follow that the bible says...not what men say tradition says the bible says.

 

[Yahshua]

The congregation is a mixture of believers and unbelievers of false conversion experiences, the virgins without oil in their lamps, Loadiceans. Prophecy in scripture is to this mixed congregation, even those letters to the churches, warnings to those playing church, those on the fence, professors who are not possessors in the midst of the body of Christ.

It's failure to understand this that leads to all the exegetical error of those who deny eternal security. There is something you cannot provide. Not one verse of a believer being unborn again, unsealed, uncalled, unchosen, unpredestined, God breaking a promise, temporary eternal life (!): you don't see any of that in scripture.

The reading of Hebrews 6 of those exposed to the things of God, as everybody convicted of sin is drawn and tastes the Holy Spirit, even, fails to see they are not born again, that Paul is making a warning to "them," which turns to "beloved" and "you" in verse 9, who have the things pertaining to salvation, the simple fact of the matter,

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

You who do so, continue to go around spreading doubt, instead of uplifting faith and trust in the Lord, and telling believers they are not saved, do so at your own peril.

Well I'll be the first to say that I 100% agree there are some charlatans not really "of the faith". And I'm sure you'll agree (from your comments so far) that it's scripture that is the litmus test proving which are which.

But indeed I just provided three passages for you in context that sets salvation as *conditional* to one maintaining one's faith. "Salvation is by grace through *faith*"

Faith > grace > salvation

...but remove faith and how can grace be continually dispensed to a person for their salvation?

I mean...one can't have it both ways. You can't say one is eternally secured and yet say if they lose their faith they suddenly never had their salvation to begin with. Those ideas are contradictory. It's either one or the other. Either:

Salvation is eternally secured, meaning one simply needs to have faith one time and ongoing faith isn't necessary..

or..

Salvation isn't secured after one event but is contingent on the believer maintaining their faith

"Falling away" means a falling away *from the faith*. Paul even warns of "contending for the faith".

 

[JesusIsAll]

Salvation isn't secured after one event but is contingent on the believer maintaining their faith

"Falling away" means a falling away *from the faith*. Paul even warns of "contending for the faith".

False conversion experiences are the result of never having repented, that is, changed one's mind to agree with the Lord of the horror of one's sin and utter helplessness, completely humbled neediness, like the publican who wouldn't lift his eyes to heaven, as opposed to the self righteous, foolish Pharisee hypocrite's damnable state he retained. Self must get knocked off the throne and replaced with the Lord, blessed are the poor in spirit and they that mourn, something "head faith," the proverbial devil's like confession, doesn't do: true REPENTANCE, on one's face before Holy, Holy, Holy God then, as well as for your life, His righteousness, not yours.

Those of the Holy Spirit continue in the faith, bottom line the Good Shepherd able to bring ALL of His sheep home, and regardless one sheep wandering off and needing retrieval. The eternal security verses I've cited stand, the Bible not contradictory, and it's great error to make a lie of that plain scripture, the sure promises of the Lord. The Bible speaks for itself, just as men who pervert truth blabber a lot, speaking for themselves, twisting truth into a dismal pretzel.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I agree its about what the bible says about chastisement...not anyone's personal commentary.

The Bible says...

Hebrews 12:8-10
But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but [God] disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness

And we do share in that holiness - we are partakers of the divine nature when we are born again. Our earthly fathers disciplined us because they wanted the best for us just as God wants the best for us . . . did we lose our position in our earthly family if we disobeyed? or were we disciplined? Even if one in an earthly family turns away from their family - they are still a son or daughter in that family.

Hebrews 13:21

Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Who makes us perfect? v20) Now the God of peace . . make you perfect - Can you help God do a better job?
The goal is the reach the same stature and fullness of Christ. Christ was sinless. That's the goal. A sinful person can't be holy, and a holy person isn't sinful. The goal is to become holy like Christ.

Yes Christ was sinless - he was not born with a sin nature - He could have sinned but he obeyed and brought about our salvation through faith in him who was perfect.

Ephesians 4:12-13

for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

building up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith . . . to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith . . . He will accomplish, finish, complete our sanctification - we are being sanctified day by day and it will be completed when Christ returns and we know that when he appears, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is . . . . That is when we are rescued from this body of death Paul talks about in Romans 7.

<snip>

That's all one should try to do, is follow that the bible says...not what men say tradition says the bible says.

I did not deal with Malachi nor the verse from Matthew - for in the OT and the gospels (still under the law) they could lose their salvation based on their works - the new birth was made available on Pentecost and the administration of grace began. Our salvation is a gift through faith by the grace of God. NOT of works - our works are produced after salvation and is considered a Christian's walk.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Phil. 1:6

 

[JesusIsAll]

Salvation isn't secured after one event but is contingent on the believer maintaining their faith

By the way, I think that's a very honest question, when one thinks of free will, something I've thrown out there, just to get some thoughts on before. But I've not yet seen any proof we can, in fact, tear ourselves out of the Lord's hand, though I've wondered the same. I came to the conclusion since it's an idea, with no support, but for anecdotal claims of men who never seemed saved, in the first place, I believe the Lord will see us home, if He has to strike us dead, and no scripture evidence this is not the case. Also, I mean, I believe. I like truth. I want to see the kingdom of heaven, the beauty of the Lord. I can't see what perversion would result in me deciding I prefer lies, even all the money in the world, prefer hell, prefer the ugly and grotesque. Can't see anybody born again wanting all things disgusting and eternal perdition. Now, if I had a head faith, that was like choosing to believe a story in a book or not, by strength of philosophical integrity, something not alive inside me, I could see, being an unregenerate pervert at heart, possibly finding something else to do. That's no stretch.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well...the thief never actually repented. Rather he saw the sinless lamb ("he shouldn't be up here with us"). Remember (as you guys often remind believers on this forum) there was *nothing* that man (or we) can do to become justified in the eyes of God. Christ/God, with his mercy alone, forgave the thief. The thief didn't do anything to earn forgiveness.

1. If he did not repent, he was never saved
2. He did repent. He understood, He deserved to be where he was, And he understood, Jesus was messiah.

I would only ask, what about those devout believers for years who lose their faith one day and become atheists and also denounce Christ? Is their salvation kept?

I would say the truth, How could one LOSE faith in a God who never gave them a reason to lose faith. Why would they claim to be christian, and now be an antichrist? (which is what an athiest is) then I would claim what John said, "they departed from us, for they were never of us, but they left to PROVE they were never of us""

IE, they were never saved to begin with. One can CLAIM to be saved till they are blue in the face, walk like a christian, even talk like one, it does not mean they ever were.

 

[Elin]

Mercy! Be's remindin me! Figgerin you know'd Elduh Floyd got big head, bein 144,000 'n all. Thing be, Elduh Floyd also gettin big rear, mercy! Ever sints ah git King James Bible, Floyd ain't hearin me. As uzual, he show'd up liken ta bad pennee, all wayz rite 'bout time yoo thinkin may be's normal day.

Ah runs inta him et da Mini Mart, gettin me sum Gummi Worm. I's tellin him he need stop ettin whole box 'o them wide yellow stripe, 20% mo free jumbo Snicker bar 'fore lunch, else needin mo changin New Wurld Tranzlayshun to be sayin 144,001 chozen few, Floyd lookin liken big as two! I wuz also insistin no place, nowhere, nohow King James Bible says gate ta heaven be widen, case Floyd gits mind ta havin Watchtower Gran Panjandrum git dis wide gate writ in New Wurld. (Dats "nippin it in da crud," as sayin goez, iffin yoo wunder.) I also says he needs be stoppin bedtime snackins, stop sayin, "Oh me! I jus be's sooo tired! Time to et famlee size bag ripple chip, wit 2 leeter root beer." Try ta be tellin Floyd yoo go sleep when tired, hain't no signal ta emptee Mini Mart Lays dizplay!

Now, dis time I pays fer mah Gummi Worm, checkin mah shoo lase 'n gits all set, 'fore tellin Elduh Floyd, fer hiz own good, he ain't got no King James Bible, 'n he one clog artree from havin barberque chip in hell, dat der will be no gallon Rockee Roads ice creem 'fore soul sleepin, no sireee! Elduh Floyd gits all red in face 'n ah jus takes off, gits half block ways down hard road pert near sure, 'fore Elduh Floyd reackted liken ta Pentecostal unda LSD infloooense, wich I dint want ta be seein dis here day, wantin ta hav me sum Gummi Worm in peece. Hope da Mini Mart got insurrense.

Mercy, mercy. . .forever literally earth-bound. . .144,001. . .20% mo free jumbo Snicker bar. . .widen da gate o' heaven. . .Gran Pajandram git it writ in New World. . .nippin it in da crud. . .mercy, mercy. . .Mini Mart Lays dizplay. . .havin bar-b-q chip in hell. . .checkin mah shoo lase 'n gits all set. . .mercy, mercy. . .nuther normal day wit duh Elduh Floyd.

 

[Jason0047]

The difference is we believe different doctrine....and again you have no authority over me in any way, thus i need never yo prove anything to you.

All authority belongs to Jesus Christ. So I do not come before you to speak on my own authority but on behalf of Jesus Christ to tell you what His Word says plainly. I am just the Messenger. I am nothing apart from Christ. But please know, that if anyone rejects the words of Jesus, then those very words will then judge them on the last day (John 12:48). All people will have to answer to Jesus as to why they did not obey Him and it will cost many their eternal salvation because they chose their own wide gate path rather than choosing the narrow way of following Jesus (According to His Word). For do you think the disciples that stopped following Jesus were saved?

 

[Rosesrock]

All authority belongs to Jesus Christ. So I do not come before you to speak on my own authority but on behalf of Jesus Christ to tell you what His Word says plainly. I am just the Messenger. I am nothing apart from Christ. But please know, that if anyone rejects the words of Jesus, then those very words will then judge them on the last day (John 12:48). All people will have to answer to Jesus as to why they did not obey Him and it will cost many their eternal salvation because they chose their own wide gate path rather than choosing the narrow way of following Jesus (According to His Word). For do you think the disciples that stopped following Jesus were saved?

If you're coming on jesus' behalf, do Him a fave and stop, cause you're spreading the wrong news. You are conflict and discord. You're concerned only if one rejects the words of you. I hope you're not surprised on judgement day when you're not told...well done my good and faithful servant.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

All authority belongs to Jesus Christ. So I do not come before you to speak on my own authority but on behalf of Jesus Christ to tell you what His Word says plainly. I am just the Messenger. I am nothing apart from Christ. But please know, that if anyone rejects the words of Jesus, then those very words will then judge them on the last day (John 12:48). All people will have to answer to Jesus as to why they did not obey Him and it will cost many their eternal salvation because they chose their own wide gate path rather than choosing the narrow way of following Jesus (According to His Word). For do you think the disciples that stopped following Jesus were saved?

Jason - This: All people will have to answer to Jesus as to why they did not obey Him and it will cost many their eternal salvation - is a lie. Our foundation is Christ - the solid Rock . . . What we build upon that foundation will be burned - what remains - we will receive a reward; what is burned, we will suffer loss - as in rewards but we, ourselves, will be saved.

1 Cor. 3:12-15 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort is it. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

We appear before the judgment seat of Christ - the bema. The bema is a built up stage so to speak where the athletes competing in the Olympian games (and the games at Corinth), received their rewards - this is where we stand to give an account of the good or bad we have done in this body - they will be purged by fire . . . even if none remain - we will suffer loss but NOT loss of salvation -

Again - NO ONE is saying that we should not endeavor to live our lives in a godly manner - we are only saying that it is a battle, it is a fight and honestly, sometimes it is a struggle. God knows that we will have trouble; why in the world do you think he sent Jesus Christ to deliver us? The OT believers could not keep the law . . . God sent his Son so that through faith in his Son we have eternal life . . . not because of what WE DO but because of WHAT HE DID . . . He is the author and finisher (perfecter) of our faith . . .

 

[Jason0047]

Well...the thief never actually repented. Rather he saw the sinless lamb ("he shouldn't be up here with us"). Remember (as you guys often remind believers on this forum) there was *nothing* that man (or we) can do to become justified in the eyes of God. Christ/God, with his mercy alone, forgave the thief. The thief didn't do anything to earn forgiveness.

That's not exactly true, my friend. The thief had:

#1. Admitted that he was a sinner.
#2. Asked for the Lord to remember Him when He would come into His Kingdom.

If the thief did not do these things like the other prideful thief on the cross, then he would not have been saved. I would say that only babies, very young children, and the mentally handicapped who do not know right from wrong yet are taken to be with the Lord without them ever making some kind of choice to receive the Lord. Yet, how is that fair when everyone else has to make a choice to receive the Lord?

Well, here is an example: Imagine a bunch of balls of light at God's feet before the Lord created everything. Now say these balls of light are the souls of everyone who has ever lived. God already knows who is going to accept Him and who is going to reject Him from looking at all these lights. So the Lord can then pick up one of these balls of light and place it it into whatever time line or place as He so desires. For God had created a line of believers from Abraham to Joseph. What are the odds of that happening? What about the 144,000 jews in the end times who will accept Jesus mentioned in Revelation chapter 7?

Everyone of those balls of lights still has a free will choice to accept or reject God. The Lord is simply sovereign over all time to know what their decision was going to be and He has placed them into the timeline and place of His choosing. For God had declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

 

[Jason0047]

Jason - This: All people will have to answer to Jesus as to why they did not obey Him and it will cost many their eternal salvation - is a lie. Our foundation is Christ - the solid Rock . . .

No. Not true at all. Jesus says this concerning a rock,

"Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

For you cannot separate the teachings of Jesus from the person of Jesus Christ. They are connected together. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Can a person be Jesus's Lord and not do what He says? No, of course not.

 

[Zmouth]

It is about what the Bible says, which contradicts all the contrary claims made by those of false exegesis.

Since shall not live by bread alone [John 6:48] but by ever word that proceedeth out of mouth of the LORD [Matt 4:4]

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.Rom 11:29
KJV

 

[KennethC]

Well thats were your wrong. ETERNAL security was first taught in the NT by Jesus himself maybe you have heard of him? He said we who believe HAVE (present tense) ETERNAL LIFE.

As for your false gospel of works. It is not new, it started with Cain Trying to use human good to please God,

That is where you are wrong as the words eternal security are nowhere found in the bible....

Believe is a continuing tense word, and applies to those who continue to believe in the Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus also tells us exactly what it means to believe in Him;

Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

(Here you have Jesus first posing a question asking why those who are not doing what He said are calling Him Lord)



Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.



(Then here Jesus tells us exactly who are the ones who believe in Him, and He says they are the ones who have come to Him, given their life to Him listening to what He said to do, and then they go out and do what He said)


But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


(Then here you have the Lord Jesus saying those who do not do what He has said, their foundation is not built on Him and the fall of that person will be great for not building their faith on Him.)



The problem you and those who follow what you believe treat all works as being wrong, and make false allegations on others constantly of trying to say we are trying to earn salvation with works. This is that false allegation and bearing false witness on those of us who are speaking of the works driven by the fruits of the Spirit that the Lord says those who do not have those will be cut off and burned.


Faith without works is dead, because those who say they have faith but do not produce the fruits of/from the Holy Spirit are not saved. Your own doctrine shows it falsehood by how you and others of what you follow are quick to condemn others who disagree with you. Condemning, hateful speech, belittling, and demeaning of others is not of the Spirit !!!