Busted: "Sinless" Perfectionists Debunked

[KennethC]

Yeah, that's the premise of my question. They were believers to begin with.

But from what I get from your reply, that means there are those who thought, for years, that they were saved...they thought, said and did everything a believer in God would think, say and do...they believed in Christ...and yet one day, when they change their thoughts to no longer believe, the reality is (as you say) they were never believers to begin with?

Wouldn't it be easier to just accept scripture that says those who do no continue in their faith/belief in Christ; who fall away, lose their salvation and enter into judgment again?

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Colossians 1:22-23
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

Yes as there are many scriptures that speak of those that fall away from the faith, and here we have the Apostle Paul giving one of those clear teachings saying the Holy Spirit is the one saying this;

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


The Holy Spirit says that there will be those who will fall away from the faith in Christ unto salvation, and return to false doctrines of demons and will not end up with eternal life unless they return to the Lord. Yet many I have talked to on here who are of the osas doctrine continue to say this can not happen, then call me in a false doctrine for defending what the Holy Spirit said.....

 

[KennethC]

It all comes down to their god is a stupid god. You have to conclude this. All the scripture of the Lord chastising His children would be beyond silly, if there were those He knows are just going to be tossed into the lake of fire. Their god is not omniscient or omnipotent, is really rather of an impotent klutz as they describe, that wastes his time, with watered-down blood of the cross and a very flawed, iffy plan one can't trust, an Indian giver of gifts, breaker of promises, one must suppose their explanation of the time wasting chastising that somebody eternal has much time to waste? Disowns children? Is putting on some show? This is as if not to mention scripture already given confirms that the Lord doesn't bother chastising the bastards, at all, in fact, does not waste effort on them. Their whole theology is lala land the Bible doesn't support, a Bible they do not understand.

How dare you say that............

God does chastise His children to keep them walking properly in the faith, but the bible says some will not heed to that chastising and become reprobate and accursed children.....2 Peter 2:14

The bible says by two or three witnesses should a thing be established, and who to have as better witnesses then our own Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Apostle Paul who all three said many will fall away from the faith......

 

[dcontroversal]

They were busted the very second that the thought crossed their minds and or the second they spewed it from their mouths......the bible is clear, the writers of the bible are clear....there is not a (singular) just man upon the earth that does good and sins NOT...period!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No. Not true at all. Jesus says this concerning a rock,

"Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

For you cannot separate the teachings of Jesus from the person of Jesus Christ. They are connected together. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Can a person be Jesus's Lord and not do what He says? No, of course not.

You didn't even acknowledge the verse I posted in response to your saying: All people will have to answer to Jesus as to why they did not obey Him and it will cost many their eternal salvation. . . but went off on some other tangent that had noting to do with my post . . .

1 Cor. 3:12-15 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort is it. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

We appear before the judgment seat of Christ - the bema. The bema is a built up stage (podium) so to speak where the athletes competing in the Olympian games (and the games at Corinth), received their rewards - this is where we stand to give an account of the good or bad we have done in this body - they will be purged by fire . . . even if none remain - we will suffer loss but NOT loss of salvation -

Again - NO ONE is saying that we should not endeavor to live our lives in a godly manner - we are only saying that it is a battle, it is a fight and honestly, sometimes it is a struggle. God knows that we will have trouble; why in the world do you think he sent Jesus Christ to deliver us? The OT believers could not keep the law . . . God sent his Son so that through faith in his Son we have eternal life . . . not because of what WE DO but because of WHAT HE DID . . . He is the author and finisher (perfecter) of our faith . . .

On Jesus Christ the solid rock I stand; all other ground is sinking sand . . . .

 

[Karraster]

I agree its about what the bible says about chastisement...not anyone's personal commentary.

The Bible says...

Hebrews 12:8-10
But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but [God] disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The goal is the reach the same stature and fullness of Christ. Christ was sinless. That's the goal. A sinful person can't be holy, and a holy person isn't sinful. The goal is to become holy like Christ.

Ephesians 4:12-13
for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the [priests of God] and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have [people] who will [worship] in righteousness.

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


That's all one should try to do, is follow that the bible says...not what men say tradition says the bible says.

Aman, truth. Is Jesus/YaHshua the prophet spoken of by Moses, the One who when He comes we must obey? I believe He is, the very Son of Almighty.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is where you are wrong as the words eternal security are nowhere found in the bible....

Believe is a continuing tense word, and applies to those who continue to believe in the Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus also tells us exactly what it means to believe in Him;

Well your wrong, because ETERNAL LIFE is ETERNAL SECURITY. God did not preach conditional life (like your teaching) or temporary life which may last forever if you do these things (like your teaching). And belief is a present active word. it is not a continual thing, not sure where legalists started to twist the meaning of this. Jesus is just telling (as did paul in eph 2 and other areas) that those who have come to an ACTIVE faith presently HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

The trying to make eternal life a religious term which does not mean what it says it is (ie making an allegory out of a term) is rediculous, and unfounded.

Jesus said they will live forever, in john 3, in john 4 and in john 6 he went on to day they would never die, never hunger or thirst, be risen on the last day, and never be lost. That my friend, is eternal security in a nutshell from the words of the savior himself.

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

(Here you have Jesus first posing a question asking why those who are not doing what He said are calling Him Lord)

Yep, and this proves one can LOSE SALVATION? NO! It questions a persons faith, You call me lord, yet do nothing. There were never saved to begin with. No loss of salvation here.

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

(Then here Jesus tells us exactly who are the ones who believe in Him, and He says they are the ones who have come to Him, given their life to Him listening to what He said to do, and then they go out and do what He said)

Yep they will. Why? THEY HAD REAL FAITH IN JESUS, THEIR FOUNDATION WAS JESUS, and THERE FOUNDATION WAS DUG SO DEEP INTO THE GROUND NOTHING COULD SHAKE IT.

This PROVES ETERNAL SECURITY MY FRIEND, THE FOUNDATION CAN NOT BE SHAKEN (ie your FAITH CAN NOT BE SHAKEN TO THE POINT IT BREAKS.

That is why scripture says, My sheep hear my voice and they follow me, they DO WHAT I TELL THEM (NOT PERFECTLY THEY ARE LAMBS!!) it is those who are NOT his sheep that do not do what he says, even if they try to walk with Jesus true sheep, because they see the blessings the real sheep get and they want to take some of them. THEY StILL ARE FALSE SHEEP.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Yep. Because his faith was DEAD, it was not LOST! No faith, NO SALVATION, PERIOD. His faith was in something else other than Christ, which had no power to keep the foundation in tact!

(Then here you have the Lord Jesus saying those who do not do what He has said, their foundation is not built on Him and the fall of that person will be great for not building their faith on Him.)

see above if our foundation is not in CHRIST, it will fall. if our foundation (Faith) is not in christ, it will not only crumble, it was never saved to begin with (ie it could have been fortold that it would fall, because the foundation could not withstand)

My foundation and faith is in Christ dude, It is secure, will not fail, and will not crumble. It will not be perfect. (a lamb is a prety dumb creature) But it will never be lost or destroyed, Because my shepperd will never leave me, never forsake me, and never fail me.

The problem you and those who follow what you believe treat all works as being wrong, and make false allegations on others constantly of trying to say we are trying to earn salvation with works. This is that false allegation and bearing false witness on those of us who are speaking of the works driven by the fruits of the Spirit that the Lord says those who do not have those will be cut off and burned.

This is not true at all. Where the problem lies is that we who teach salvation by grace teach works, Eph 2: 10 teaches that we who are saved by grace and not works, were created anew for good works, that we will walk in them, John says that we who are children of God do not need taught, will not live in sin. Paul says we may remain babes in Christ, needing to continually be fed milk, and challenges us to grow in Christ so we can be fed meat, and teach others (so much for losing salvation)

If you want to talk works. thats great, but lets get the gospel right, if your not saved, because your foundation is in your works, all the good works you could ever do will never save you, period. you will be lost in hell for eternity,

Faith without works is dead, because those who say they have faith but do not produce the fruits of/from the Holy Spirit are not saved.

I can only be saddened by what has just transpired. YOu have just spend alot of time I am sure using passages to PROVE on can lose salvation, and eternal security is a lie, yet EVERY passage you have used does not do anythingn to support what your trying to do. Every passage you have ised shows the truth, That those who HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST, Have LAID THEIR FOUNDATION in CHRIST, have been BORN AGAIN BY CHRIST, have been GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE. will do what scripture says they will do.
They follow his commands, They do good works, They change their lives, They seek glory not of their own, but for Christ.... (I can give you a long list of what scripture teaches the children of God will do. You just proved what I believe by your passages, and you want to use them against me?

All I can think of is again you are spoonfed, You are taught what we believe (which is a lie) you are taught how to respond to us (which makes yourself look foolish, because your arguments do not fit) and you are programmed in all your responses.

Again, you need to stop listening to men, and start listening to God

Your own doctrine shows it falsehood by how you and others of what you follow are quick to condemn others who disagree with you. Condemning, hateful speech, belittling, and demeaning of others is not of the Spirit !!!

Tell that to Jesus and Paul, who also condemned and quitely shut down the legalist preaching that the grace of God is not powerful to save you, that the grace of God is week and can not transform a persons life, that its foundation can crumble and be torn down. etc etc.

If you do not believe in the power of God to KEEP those who were given to him as children, you teach a false gospel. and (NOT YOU) but your gospel will be shut down and exposed!

 

[Jason0047]

You didn't even acknowledge the verse I posted in response to your saying: All people will have to answer to Jesus as to why they did not obey Him and it will cost many their eternal salvation. . . but went off on some other tangent that had noting to do with my post . . .

On Jesus Christ the solid rock I stand; all other ground is sinking sand . . . .

Because you are looking at the Scriptures with a certain biased that ignores the verse that I just put forth. If you do what Christ says it will be as if you built your house upon the rock. If you do not do so, then you are building your house upon shaky ground. So how can your house stand if you do not do what Jesus says? For when you build, the foundation must be Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Rock. And doing what Jesus says is a part of building on a solid foundation. If you do not do what Jesus says, then you are making a Jesus of your own imagining.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You didn't even acknowledge the verse I posted in response to your saying: All people will have to answer to Jesus as to why they did not obey Him and it will cost many their eternal salvation. . . but went off on some other tangent that had noting to do with my post . . .

On Jesus Christ the solid rock I stand; all other ground is sinking sand . . . .

Love that song, Been so long since I heard it, So true sis!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because you are looking at the Scriptures with a certain biased that ignores the verse that I just put forth. If you do what Christ says it will be as if you built your house upon the rock.

No your wrong, Your the one looking with a bias, not my sister.

It is building our foundation in Christ which EMPOWERS us to do his will. Our works proceed from our faith. The object of our faith is our foundation.

If you do not do so, then you are building your house upon shaky ground. So how can your house stand if you do not do what Jesus says? For when you build, the foundation must be Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Rock. And doing what Jesus says is a part of building on a solid foundation. If you do not do what Jesus says, then you are making a Jesus of your own imagining.

Our foundation is Jesus, thats why we will never lose faith, our foundation will never crumble no matter what the world throws at it.

But you teach a foundation can crumble, and it be lost. thats because your foundation is in what you do (or do not do) and not on Christ,

Your faith is in your foundation. Our foundation is Christ, your foundation is works.

That is what separates us.

 

[Jason0047]

No your wrong, Your the one looking with a bias, not my sister.

It is building our foundation in Christ which EMPOWERS us to do his will. Our works proceed from our faith. The object of our faith is our foundation.

Well, your sister believes she can be out of fellowship with the Lord and still be saved. How exactly can Christ save and empower a person to do His will if they do not have fellowship with Him?

Also, I am not denying Christ does the work in the believer. You seem to keep wrongfully thinking I do not believe that.

Our foundation is Jesus, thats why we will never lose faith, our foundation will never crumble no matter what the world throws at it.

But you teach a foundation can crumble, and it be lost. thats because your foundation is in what you do (or do not do) and not on Christ,

Your faith is in your foundation. Our foundation is Christ, your foundation is works.

That is what separates us.

Because we have free will still as a believer. They can choose to walk away from Christ. It is of their own choice. God does not keep us against our will to serve Him. Nor does God just choose those He knows will endure in their faith because God's promises are for everyone. Meaning if a person repents and accepts Christ, they are saved and born again. But .... they have to continue with Christ and walk with Him. They have to choose every day the Lord and not just one time in their life.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, you are not explaining the passage in Matthew 7. How exactly can you be saved if your house (you, or your temple) is destroyed?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, your sister believes she can be out of fellowship with the Lord and still be saved. How exactly can Christ save and empower a person to do His will if they do not have fellowship with Him?

Also, I am not denying Christ does the work in the believer. You seem to keep wrongfully thinking I do not believe that.

Yet the passage you were citing did not prove your point, so I am correct, you were wrong.

Yes you do deny the power of God, you also deny the foundation. You claim a foundation founded in Christ can be broken, thus your Christ is not the Christ of the bible

Because we have free will still as a believer. They can choose to walk away from Christ. It is of their own choice. God does not keep us against our will to serve Him. Nor does God just choose those He knows will endure in their faith because God's promises are for everyone. Meaning if a person repents and accepts Christ, they are saved and born again. But .... they have to continue with Christ and walk with Him. They have to choose every day the Lord and not just one time in their life.

free will. That is one of those waves that crash into the house, yet if the foundation is in Christ, it will not be broken.

Face it dude, the passage your using proves OSAS, it proves a foundation. layed in Christ will never crumble no matter what wave the world wants to through at it. Be it the wave of lust, of sin, of hate, of pride, no matter what wave comes at it, God says in his word, it will never tear down the house.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Also, you are not explaining the passage in Matthew 7. How exactly can you be saved if your house (you, or your temple) is destroyed?

No, it is you who has to explain. How can a house which was founded on Christ, Which explicitly states in Matt 7 can never be destroyed no matter what wave crashes against it. Ever be destroyed?

The house or temple was destroyed ONLY because it was not founded on Christ, Are you going to tell me a house build on a foundation OTHER than Christ is saved? or ever was saved?

You have some explaining to do if you think this!

 

[Rosesrock]

The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Ps 18:2

 

[KennethC]

No your wrong, Your the one looking with a bias, not my sister.

It is building our foundation in Christ which EMPOWERS us to do his will. Our works proceed from our faith. The object of our faith is our foundation.



Our foundation is Jesus, thats why we will never lose faith, our foundation will never crumble no matter what the world throws at it.

But you teach a foundation can crumble, and it be lost. thats because your foundation is in what you do (or do not do) and not on Christ,

Your faith is in your foundation. Our foundation is Christ, your foundation is works.

That is what separates us.

Constantly trying to twist things around, as a believers foundation is Christ and if your faith is built on Christ then you will do what He said.

You can not claim to be in Christ and have your faith built on Him if are not following His teachings, commands, and are not walking properly in the faith.

Lord Jesus clearly said in Luke 6:46-49 that only the doers of what He said have their faith built on Him, but the one's who do not do are the one's who's foundation is not built on Him and will fall.

Also Eternal Life is not the same as Eternal Security, so that is a twist of what your doctrine teaches because Eternal Life is taught by the bible as a mental assurance of receiving it based on keeping the faith in Christ to the end. Eternal security on the other hand teaches that eternal life is ours already and nothing can take it away, and then goes and denies the multiple scriptures in the bible that speaks of those that fall away from the faith.

I can give you a history lesson of who and when the eternal security doctrine got started if you like to know the truth, and then when it got changed and coined to OSAS. You will be surprised how both of these were started by men that both of which have been called out for their error's they teach in their doctrines....

 

[KennethC]

The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Ps 18:2

Yes this is an excellent verse as it shows that we as believers are to put our weakness to the Lord to make us strong in those areas, and to put our trust in Him to. And putting our love and trust in Him means that we obey His teachings and keep His commands, as the bible stresses this so many times that those who abide in Christ keep and obey His commands !!!

 

[Rosesrock]

Yes this is an excellent verse as it shows that we as believers are to put our weakness to the Lord to make us strong in those areas, and to put our trust in Him to. And putting our love and trust in Him means that we obey His teachings and keep His commands, as the bible stresses this so many times that those who abide in Christ keep and obey His commands !!!

Ken, with all due respect....I know what this verse means to me. And my Rock has no conditions. Im not arguing with anyone the you're right Im right thing. Im not sure why my confidence in Christ and what I think it means is such a threat. If my faith worries you so....... please pray for me, but telling people how they must serve the Lord according to what you believe is the only way, is wrong. Again in this setting, it isnt the place. Now, again, spreading the love of christ, developing a trusting relationship might get you somewhere.

 

[ember]

Ken, with all due respect....I know what this verse means to me. And my Rock has no conditions. Im not arguing with anyone the you're right Im right thing. Im not sure why my confidence in Christ and what I think it means is such a threat. If my faith worries you so....... please pray for me, but telling people how they must serve the Lord according to what you believe is the only way, is wrong. Again in this setting, it isnt the place. Now, again, spreading the love of christ, developing a trusting relationship might get you somewhere.

I love that verse too Roses....and I accept and view as do you

spoilers gotta spoil, but God's word does not change as we are told in Hebrews 7 (v 25)


Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. NIV

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. KJV

I have never heard these sinless folk talk about Jesus as our High Priest...now, if we know the OT at all, we know what the office of the High Priest was for

So, if we are all supposed to be sinless, why do we need a High Priest in heaven?

I pray the scales fall from the eyes of those who see our God only as an avenging perfectionist, making war on His own children

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Constantly trying to twist things around, as a believers foundation is Christ and if your faith is built on Christ then you will do what He said.

You can not claim to be in Christ and have your faith built on Him if are not following His teachings, commands, and are not walking properly in the faith.

Who is twisting things around but you.

Are you a hypocrite? are you telling me one can CLAIM to be IN CHRIST yet NOT DO WHAT HE SAYS?

well guess, what, I AM NOT ONE EITHER. SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

Your strawman that I BELIEVE ONE CAN BE SAVED AND LIVE A LICENTIOUS LIFESTYLE IS FALSE.

Jude refutes your argument that I believe a licentious person (a person living in sin) is ever saved, That is my Guide, not your false accusation.

1. Jude says they can be among us, eating our food and drink (they can be part of our church, and we not even know who they are) yet their eternal destiny is already shown to be eternal darkness forever.

2. He says they were never saved, their eternal destiny was pre-ordained. To hell!

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[SUP][b][/SUP] and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


now your going to tell me these people were saved and lost it? You reject what Jude says then!

Lord Jesus clearly said in Luke 6:46-49 that only the doers of what He said have their faith built on Him, but the one's who do not do are the one's who's foundation is not built on Him and will fall.

lol. the same argument, PEOPLE SAVED WILL DO GODS WILL. get over the fact that people can be saved and live in sin, IT IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE!

Also Eternal Life is not the same as Eternal Security,

Eternal. forever, never ending,

life, opposite of death

scripture says we have passed from death to life (also called being born again, being made alive in christ) and that this life is called eternal life.

If it can be lost (ever end) it is not eternal.

That my friend, is eternal security. If eternal life can be lost, it is not eternal. and God is a liar.

if you want to make God a liar, that is on you my friend, not me.

so that is a twist of what your doctrine teaches because Eternal Life is taught by the bible as a mental assurance of receiving it based on keeping the faith in Christ to the end. Eternal security on the other hand teaches that eternal life is ours already and nothing can take it away, and then goes and denies the multiple scriptures in the bible that speaks of those that fall away from the faith.

One can fall away from what they were taught, One who has TRUE FAITH will never fall. You ever study the english language?

"The faith" in scripture, is "the gospel" it is not a persons faith.

face it man, if I do not HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, I do not HAVE HOPE. if I do not HAVE HOPE. I do not HAVE FAITH.

oh and that is not me talking, that is the word of God talking.

1. Faith is the SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR (heb 11: 1)
2 In the HOPE of ETERNAL LIFE, which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN. (titus 1: 2)

No hope. no faith. period. Your faith and foundation is not in God, it is in self. period.

I can give you a history lesson of who and when the eternal security doctrine got started if you like to know the truth, and then when it got changed and coined to OSAS. You will be surprised how both of these were started by men that both of which have been called out for their error's they teach in their doctrines....

History, which for thousands of years was controled by the catholc church, which anything which went against them was destroyed or burnt? that history? that trustworthy history? no thanks.

double No thanks, I have the only history book which matters, and it is called the word of God, And it teaches those wh have FAITH in Christ HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and this foundation layed on the cornerstone, which is Christ, and dug deep into the ground will never be destroyed, falter or crumble, because it is layed on Christ, the rock I stand.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes this is an excellent verse as it shows that we as believers are to put our weakness to the Lord to make us strong in those areas, and to put our trust in Him to. And putting our love and trust in Him means that we obey His teachings and keep His commands, as the bible stresses this so many times that those who abide in Christ keep and obey His commands !!!

lol. See you still have it backwards, You have obedience comming first, that is legalism my friend.

We OBEY because WE TRUST..(our trust is in our foundation, which is Christ)

we do not TRUST because we OBEY. (otherwise our foundation would be based on OUR ABILITY TO OBEY, and not the ONE WHO EMPOWERS US TO OBEY)