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E
I would add, we trust them because they have never led us astray (told us to do something which would harm us)
when will God ever do something to us which harms us emotionally?
that is what sin does. not what doing good does. Doing what God asks may bring pain and suffering, but it will never harm us emotionally if our foundation is in him. because we TRUST HIM.
K
Look I am not arguing or debating right from wrong either.
What I am doing is what the Apostle Paul did and that is he went preaching to believers in the faith, and when he saw them walking improperly by the faith he called them out on it. Paul called out the Galatians, Corinthians, and the Ephesians out on how they were abusing the faith and walking not accordingly.
We are called and told to do the same thing, as by love we are not to just sit back and let our fellow brethren walk a path that contrary to the word of God. Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude did not sit back and allow them to walk improperly, but told them the proper way to walk and Paul even gave warnings if they did not turn from those ways.
I do pray for you and others, and I am sorry you may take what I say the wrong way but I am just following by Apostle Paul's example as the Holy Spirit has guided me to be this way. For His word says by Paul we are to imitate him as he also imitates Christ.
Read 1 John chapters 2 through 4 as the Apostle John gives a run down there on how one in faith will walk to know they have eternal life abiding in them. I am not saying you are one of them that walks improperly because I do not know how you live your life, however what I can do is help you by love if I see you speak and support a false doctrine.
I do not know persay where you stand and my response was not to be taken that way to you that I believe you are walking wrong, but I can say I have done a background study in doctrines such as eternal security and osas because I was once under those teachings and was surprised when the Holy Spirit showed me they were both started by men who have other false teachings under their doctrines............
God bless
Dear Eternally Grateful:
Not all OSAS proponents here believe as you do. So I would caution you in who you associate with. There are many who have voted in a poll saying they can die in unrepentant sin (like lying, lusting, and hating) and still be saved.
Also, do you believe that if a believer backslides into a life of sin that they were never saved or born again to begin with?
As for "free will": If God over-rides a believer's free will, then why doesn't he just over-ride all people's free will so as to save them, too?
Not all OSAS proponents here believe as you do. So I would caution you in who you associate with. There are many who have voted in a poll saying they can die in unrepentant sin (like lying, lusting, and hating) and still be saved.
Also, do you believe that if a believer backslides into a life of sin that they were never saved or born again to begin with?
As for "free will": If God over-rides a believer's free will, then why doesn't he just over-ride all people's free will so as to save them, too?
E
As i pray for you and others. Im thankful for the freedom to research and study . Im glad you have studied,as I have.
God bless
God bless
They do not understand, we do not let people go on suffering because of sin and say it is ok. We were healed of it, and we want others to be healed of it to. When we see a brother in sin, we confront them on it, and do what Paul tells us (as a church to do) in those cases.
what we do not do. is tell them if they do not stop. they will go to hell. because that is not what God says, nor is it a way to heal them. You do not demand something, or give them an ultimatum, that's now how you show love, you show them love, and they follow you.
we can not discuss what we do for sin issues with them, because the gospel has to be agreed on first, without the one true gospel. there is no freedom from sin, so we can not even discuss sin.
yet our lack of discussing sin (with them) is seen as a license to sin, where it is not.
It is like trying to discuss with your 2 year old how to drive, and what not to do when you drive.
Your two year old can not discuss anything about this, it is foreign to them. nor is it in their vocabulary.
Dear Eternally Grateful:
Also, if you do not believe in "sinless perfectionism" how does that not say that you are approving of a life of giving into sin the rest of your life on some level? In addition, how does that idea fit with your view of a believer in being holy and righteous?
For example: Can an alcoholic say that he will forever be an alcoholic if he plans on being sober and alcohol free?
Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you.
Also, if you do not believe in "sinless perfectionism" how does that not say that you are approving of a life of giving into sin the rest of your life on some level? In addition, how does that idea fit with your view of a believer in being holy and righteous?
For example: Can an alcoholic say that he will forever be an alcoholic if he plans on being sober and alcohol free?
Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you.
E
I do not care what others teach for one, and two. I have yet to see you prove that to me..
So your saying if I am speeding because I am in a hurry and my momentary flesh has overpowered my spirit, and die in a crash before I repent of that sin, I am doomed for hell?
What Kind of God do you worship?
I believe what the scripture says,
A child of God can not live in sin (the apostle John)
A person who sins has never seen God nor known him (the apostle John)
A person who lives a licentious lifestyl was preordained to an eternity in hell (Jude)
I can go on and on. but You should start to see the picture, if not. going on will not help you.
why would you think God would over ride ones free will?
and more importantly. why would you think a person whos foundation was in christ, free will could be shattered to the point the whole structure is destroyed? when matt 7 says NO WAVE (no matter what it is) can destroy the building?
you throw the faith thing around like it is something fragile. and can be broken.
I though faith around as (if placed in Christ) something powerful which empowered by God, will never be broken.
No one who ever trusted Christ for salvation will ever stop having that faith, it may waver or vary, but faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain, it will also save you (even if it is small)
Dear Eternally Grateful:
Also, if you are for holiness as you say, then why have you not tried to correct those brothers and sisters who believe they can sin and still be saved? If you did do so, then please forgive me. But I would like to see posts that show that you are for the goodness of God and you are out to defend His good ways. So far, I just do not get that impression that you are out to defend God's righteous and good ways. But I am happy to be proven wrong. So please show me.
Thank you for reading.
And may God bless you.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
Also, if you are for holiness as you say, then why have you not tried to correct those brothers and sisters who believe they can sin and still be saved? If you did do so, then please forgive me. But I would like to see posts that show that you are for the goodness of God and you are out to defend His good ways. So far, I just do not get that impression that you are out to defend God's righteous and good ways. But I am happy to be proven wrong. So please show me.
Thank you for reading.
And may God bless you.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
E
Why, because the law is our standard. Do you obey every aspect of the law 100% of the time 24/7 7 days a week 365 days a year?
if you say you do. your a liar, and there is no truth in you (1 John 1)
if you say you can not. then you agree according to Gods standard, you are not sinless. and never will be
He better say he is forever an alcoholic. Because 20 years from now, if he has one drink (even by accident) he will have to quite drinking all over again.
You have never dealt with addiction have you?
saying he will be an alcoholic forever is called humility, it is getting on your knees and agreeing with God you have done something to your body and mind which has broken it.
this legalistic mindset that God has taken away every addiction the moment one is saved is why so many people who claim to be Gods children fall back into their addictions. Because they have been given a false hope. and when they do struggle. they have to
1. Hide it (for fear of being called a non believer)
2. Stop being so active in the work of God, because someone may find out
3. Stop prayinng to God, because God is going to punish him anyway, he will never answer a prayer.
etc etc etc
sorry, there is no power in your gospel.
E
lol.. I am trying to correct a brother who thinks he can not sin.
WHy worry about those who do not struggle with sin, when I need to worry about one who denys he has any sin?
(as for a brother, if they start to struggle with sin, and I see it, I will do as God says, and go to them in private, not in an open forum)
WHy worry about those who do not struggle with sin, when I need to worry about one who denys he has any sin?
(as for a brother, if they start to struggle with sin, and I see it, I will do as God says, and go to them in private, not in an open forum)
Check out the poll results here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115480-do-you-believe-you-can-die-unrepentant-sin-such-lying-etc-still-saved.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105849-can-you-out-fellowship-god-still-saved.html
As I said before, some folks here do not understand that there are sins that lead unto death and there are sins that do not lead unto death (See 1 John 5:16-18). Sins that do not lead unto death would be hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12). This would be the type of sins like say going over the speed limit a little or not going the extra mile at your job for Christ. For he to knoweth to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17). Sins unto death would also be confessed sin, too. Sins that would lead unto death are those types of sins Paul lists several times in the New Testament that will cause a person not to inherit the KIngdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (Ephesians 3:3-7). These are really bad unrepentant sins such as lying, hating, murdering, committing fornication, stealing, and drunkenness, etc. John says in Revelation 21:8 that these types of sins will lead unto the Second DEATH, which is the Lake of Fire. Paul says to the brethen, be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Then he lists certain sins that apply to that unrighteousness. One can only be deceived if you are a believer. An unbeliever is already deceived by the devil and sin because they do not have Jesus Christ.
A God of righteousness and holiness who will not tolerate sin and evil in a believer's life and who does not force salvation upon a person after they made a one time decision to accept the Lord.
You may be speaking of the Elect, but that is not the case for all who have accepted God.
Because you believe that once a person is saved, they cannot choose to go back and stop serving Jesus.
The Parable of the Sower shows this is not so. Some fell away due to persecution and or the cares of this life.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115480-do-you-believe-you-can-die-unrepentant-sin-such-lying-etc-still-saved.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105849-can-you-out-fellowship-god-still-saved.html
As I said before, some folks here do not understand that there are sins that lead unto death and there are sins that do not lead unto death (See 1 John 5:16-18). Sins that do not lead unto death would be hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12). This would be the type of sins like say going over the speed limit a little or not going the extra mile at your job for Christ. For he to knoweth to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17). Sins unto death would also be confessed sin, too. Sins that would lead unto death are those types of sins Paul lists several times in the New Testament that will cause a person not to inherit the KIngdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (Ephesians 3:3-7). These are really bad unrepentant sins such as lying, hating, murdering, committing fornication, stealing, and drunkenness, etc. John says in Revelation 21:8 that these types of sins will lead unto the Second DEATH, which is the Lake of Fire. Paul says to the brethen, be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Then he lists certain sins that apply to that unrighteousness. One can only be deceived if you are a believer. An unbeliever is already deceived by the devil and sin because they do not have Jesus Christ.
A God of righteousness and holiness who will not tolerate sin and evil in a believer's life and who does not force salvation upon a person after they made a one time decision to accept the Lord.
You may be speaking of the Elect, but that is not the case for all who have accepted God.
Because you believe that once a person is saved, they cannot choose to go back and stop serving Jesus.
The Parable of the Sower shows this is not so. Some fell away due to persecution and or the cares of this life.
J
Yes, and this is a primary point in the video posted, that there is chastisement from the Lord. No believer gets a free lunch. It's not possible. It is a slanderous claim and straw man, horrid to make this claim of people who are trusting the Lord's sure promises. It's the very ugly nature of the accusation that reeks of trolling. I think most know the word devil even means slanderer. Also, the devil is a notorious purveyor of doubt and accusations. Not a good being to share traits with, is it?
It has always been a scriptural and primary admonition of Christianity that strong faith is absolute trust in the Lord. I believe one of the problems is isolated, web trolling types of no congregation, who are Lone Rangers. They refuse sound teaching down the generations, don't understand the Bible and have, in essence, created their own legalistic religions. Throw in the narcissism and self righteousness, and you have a disaster in the making.
It's a strong example why people should consult reliable preachers and teachers, as well as good commentaries that have stood the test of time, when there are any theological questions whatsoever, and not the landfill that can be the opinion web, replete with crackpots, who are filled with all sorts of ignorance and lies. I seldom have an opinion my own, at all, and will state so if I do, have never, ever gone about interpreting the Bible myself, in some holy Joe fog of arrogant isolation that refuses sound teaching. Many, many agree with what I believe, and all Spirit-filled, proven men of truth from down the ages, or I wouldn't believe it, would know I've not read something correctly.
It has always been a scriptural and primary admonition of Christianity that strong faith is absolute trust in the Lord. I believe one of the problems is isolated, web trolling types of no congregation, who are Lone Rangers. They refuse sound teaching down the generations, don't understand the Bible and have, in essence, created their own legalistic religions. Throw in the narcissism and self righteousness, and you have a disaster in the making.
It's a strong example why people should consult reliable preachers and teachers, as well as good commentaries that have stood the test of time, when there are any theological questions whatsoever, and not the landfill that can be the opinion web, replete with crackpots, who are filled with all sorts of ignorance and lies. I seldom have an opinion my own, at all, and will state so if I do, have never, ever gone about interpreting the Bible myself, in some holy Joe fog of arrogant isolation that refuses sound teaching. Many, many agree with what I believe, and all Spirit-filled, proven men of truth from down the ages, or I wouldn't believe it, would know I've not read something correctly.
K
No obedience does come first and the bible clearly teaches this;
Point 1) Luke 13:3 - You can not be saved until you first obey the command to repent of your sins, unless repentance is made you will still perish. So you can not perish if you are already saved, so obedience to repent comes before being saved.
Point 2) Acts 5:32 - The bible here states the Holy Spirit is given only to those who obey. So you have to obey the first steps of faith to receive the Holy Spirit who will then guide you in the rest.
Point 3) Salvation - Eternal security and OSAS doctrines teach salvation/eternal life is physically ours right now. The bible says we have hope, assurance, and seek for the receiving of salvation by contending and keeping the faith, and that it is reserved up in heaven for us who continue in the faith.....
Point 4) Eternal security - Started by Augustine in the 4th century (301-399 A.D.) who also taught these falsehoods;
-"Impossibility of falling away or apostasy." (Eternal Security)
(Matthew 24:10-13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and James 5:19-20 refutes this stance)
"Man has no free will."
(Joshua 24:15, Matthew 6:24, Luke 16:13, and Romans 6:16 refutes this stance)
"One cannot know if they are saved."
(1 John chapters 2 through 4 refute this stance)
"God commands impossibilities."
(1 John 5:3 refutes this stance)
"The supreme authority of the Roman church."
(John 16:13, Mark 11:24, and James 1:6 refutes this stance)
"Purgatory."
(Nothing in the bible to even support a purgatory, only scriptures on hell, and the lake of fire)
Prayers for the dead.
(Luke 16:19-31 of the rich man and Lazarus refutes this stance)
The doctrine of eternal security can only be traced back to Augustine and not any further in history studies of the church. Before him this doctrine was not taught anywhere in the early church, and you can clearly see the other falsehoods he taught !!!
If you were to stop and listen, you might be able to actually understand what I believe.
The fact that I believe the Bible teaches that a believer can stop sinning does not mean I have personally reached that point yet. Now, I do not abide in habitual unrepentant sin as a way of life and there are days I do not even sin. But to completely stop sinning altogether. I have not acheived that goal yet (Even though I believe God will help me to do that one day). For my life does not change the truth of what the Scriptures say, though. I will keep fighting the good fight and pray to the Lord that He will do the good work in me to crucify the affections and lusts. See, that is where your doctrine falls apart like a can of worms. For the moment you say that you will always fall into some kind of sin, is the moment you are approving of sin as if it is okay (Even when you don't like it). God's people can stop sinning. I believe we can accomplish this because the Bible is clear on this point that we need to put into practice and ask more and more to draw near to God to help us in living for Him and not ourselves. Read Ephesians 4:17-27.
The fact that I believe the Bible teaches that a believer can stop sinning does not mean I have personally reached that point yet. Now, I do not abide in habitual unrepentant sin as a way of life and there are days I do not even sin. But to completely stop sinning altogether. I have not acheived that goal yet (Even though I believe God will help me to do that one day). For my life does not change the truth of what the Scriptures say, though. I will keep fighting the good fight and pray to the Lord that He will do the good work in me to crucify the affections and lusts. See, that is where your doctrine falls apart like a can of worms. For the moment you say that you will always fall into some kind of sin, is the moment you are approving of sin as if it is okay (Even when you don't like it). God's people can stop sinning. I believe we can accomplish this because the Bible is clear on this point that we need to put into practice and ask more and more to draw near to God to help us in living for Him and not ourselves. Read Ephesians 4:17-27.
J
Because it is a fragile and broken "faith," what's alarming not representing a saving faith that begins with repentance. These people don't agree with God who and what they are, out of the gate, do not really understand His holiness, even deign to compare themselves to deity. It's pretty sick, actually.
E
Yep. You have said it 1000 times it seems, and 1000 times it has been proven to you that that is not true.
All sin in the eyes of God is breaking the law of God. that brings about it a curse. Scripture says even the smallest sin makes us guilty of the whole law.
Now, there are some sins which may not lead to death (a small lie for example) and some sins which may lead to death (get behind the wheel when you had to much to drink and hit a concrete wall, your now dead)
Your context is out of line, your excusing your lesser sins, while judging what you deem more dangerous or evil sins, That is not of God. I judge all sin is evil no matter what it is, no matter who does it, no matter what excuse they make.
Yep he will not. that is why he demands you recieve it, he will not force it on you.
Yet one who receives it, and experiences its joy, will NEVER WILLINGLY give it up. You think they can because you have never experienced it, I am telling man, if you will repent and recieve it, and experience it, only then can you understand where I am coming from.
if your not elect. Your not saved, period. never have been, never will be. period (this is not calvin speaking, this is the word of God speaking)
Oh they can, They can be prodigal children, But the suffering and pain and not to mention chastening of God will not keep them their long (I know I was one)
but they will never stop being Gods child.
yep. because their foundation was on the sand, not in Christ (they were never saved) so the waves and persecution and cares of life tore their building down.
when are you going to realise this?