Busted: "Sinless" Perfectionists Debunked

[KennethC]

Answer this question then;

How does a born again believer overcome and have victory over sin, if every fleeting thought is a sin or everybody continues to sin everyday ???

Here is my question and here are you answers, thank you first of all for actually answering.........

It's an insulting question, because it has been answered a thousand times around here. Salvation is the righteousness of Christ. This you don't understand, this you reject. You stumble at the Cornerstone, which, in the end, is going to crush you, if you don't repent.

But this vain repetition you indulge in has come down to trolling, as you've been already provided all the answers you reject, too many times. Maybe find another thread to spread your painfully repetitive garbage "gospel" around in and get the attention you crave?

Instead of answering the question you insult and call it insulting.....

It is not an insulting question my friend as the bible clearly says we will have overcome and gain victory over sin.
You are not having victory over sin if you claim you sin every single day and will for the rest of your life. The Holy Spirit was sent to guide us in all truth and give us the strength to overcome sin. Overcoming it does not simply mean just repenting of it by mouth, as it also means you turn from continuing to commit it. A true repentance is shown in actions !!!

We may have 2 minutes of a fleeting thought - we may have 5 minutes where we may have lied - that is a total of 7 minutes out of a 24 hour period. The 15 hour period we walk in the Spirit . . . We have stopped during the day and talked to our Father - saying we are sorry and accepting his forgiveness . . .Okay that day is done - Can't bring that day back to undue any of it - but you took care of everything by saying you were sorry and asking forgiveness - you can't even bring it back to God's remembrance for he has forgotten it.

Next day comes along - oops about 10 minutes was spent being angry, about 30 minutes was spent using your office's copy paper printing up things for yourself, then you used their staples and/or paper clips, now add stealing to your list of offences, then you spend an hour upset with your children or your spouse for something they did . . . the list goes on and on. These may be little trivial things to some but they are not what Christ would do therefore (to the sinless perfectionist) it is wrong! I have spent what? an hour and 40 minutes in my old man nature . . . the rest of the time I walked by the Spirit. Now I go to bed - I remember about the supplies at work I used, ask forgiveness, I remember the attitude of heart I had against my children and/or spouse, I ask forgiveness but I forget about the 10 minutes I spent angry . . . Am I going to hell?

Is this how it works?

Or is any victory we have due to our faith in Jesus Christ?

The problem with this standard is that the bible does not say you can sin today repent of it, turn around the next day and commit that sin again and repent again for it. That is the standard of what the bible shows is not true repentance, as it says you will produce fruits worthy of repentance.

This means your actions will reflect your repentance as you will not continue to do that sin no more.

The Holy Spirit was sent to guide us in all truth, and to give us the strength to keep from committing those sins.
That is how we have victory and overcome sins, so if you continue to sin repent sin repent sin repent sin repent every single day that is a sign of not truly repenting and being guided by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was not sent to allow us to keep walking in lewdness !!!

The overcoming and victory comes when by the Holy Spirit you stop giving into those lust and stop doing those sins !!!

 

[KennethC]

Thoughts are not sinful, it is the acting out of the thoughts that may lead to sin. How do you know that everybody continues to sin everyday? That must be one of those fleeting thoughts.

Thank you for answering with the correct answer....

The bible says wrongful/bad thoughts give birth to sinful feelings (lusts), and when they become full grown they control that person because they become action.

Well as for the other some on here claim that we all continue to sin every single day, and I have talked with at least 5 that have stated this. This does not come from saying this, as I just put it in the question because I wanted those who state that to tell me how they have victory over sin if they still give into it and everytime a person has a bad thought even though they have not given into it they sinned.

 

[Jason0047]

What are some other verses that talk about Sinless Perfectionism?

David says in Psalm 119:11,
"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

Now, why would David say this if he just sinned all the time as a part of God's plan? Why would David say this if believed he could never stop sinning? Was David just deceiving himself into thinking that he could not sin against the Lord by hiding God's Word within his heart?

Also, Jesus says,
"Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
(Matthew 26:41).

Why would Jesus tell us to pray so as not to be led into temptation if we are to sin all the time? It doesn't make sense. Does not being led away from temptation keep you away from sinning? Does Jesus want you to sin or to not sin? Do you think you can pray so as not to be led into temptation? Why not do that all the time?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

<snip>
The problem with this standard is that the bible does not say you can sin today repent of it, turn around the next day and commit that sin again and repent again for it. That is the standard of what the bible shows is not true repentance, as it says you will produce fruits worthy of repentance.

Where does scripture point out there is a limit on our asking forgiveness?

This means your actions will reflect your repentance as you will not continue to do that sin no more.

I don't REPENT every time I sin . . . to repent is to have a change of mind - I relate that to when I was an unbeliever I repented once - changed my mind - to have Christ as my Lord - Now, I am going through my day - I sin - I ask forgiveness, I am cleansed and I go about my business. All is good - my fellowship is restored. I will NOT say that I will "sin no more" for I am STILL in this body of flesh - the old man is still there hanging out and sometimes he wins out. Surely not proud of that but I am not going to live in shame and discouragement because I screwed up maybe 10 minutes out of a 24 hour day. I say I am sorry - I hope that I do not do that again - AND THAT IS MY HEART - THAT IS MY TRUE INTENT - but 2 seconds after I say it I may do it again . . . Are you human at all?

The Holy Spirit was sent to guide us in all truth, and to give us the strength to keep from committing those sins.
That is how we have victory and overcome sins, so if you continue to sin repent sin repent sin repent sin repent every single day that is a sign of not truly repenting and being guided by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was not sent to allow us to keep walking in lewdness !!!

You are correct I have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in me - that is the divine nature - the new creation and within that creation I am holy, I am righteous and it is true that Christ gives us strength Phil. 4:13 and if the world were perfect, if MAN was perfect - then there would be no battle, there would be no race to run, no fight to fight for each and every believer would be perfect and also there wouldn't even be any need for 1 John 1:9 because we would have NOTHING to ask forgiveness for . . . . so if you continue to sin repent sin repent sin repent sin repent every single day that is a sign of not truly repenting and being guided by the Holy Spirit. - WHERE did you find this? WHY did God place a plan in position in case we should sin - forgiveness - Jesus Christ stands as our advocate before the Father. Again, what is my sin limit? NONE! . . . And if I say I don't sin - Well then I am a liar (1 John 1:10) - so I have sinned in that!!!!!

The overcoming and victory comes when by the Holy Spirit you stop giving into those lust and stop doing those sins !!!

We are to obey . . . God placed rules and regulations in place so that we can live peaceably, safely and our lives will be blessed. Just as we as parents set rules and regulations for our children so they can live peaceably, safely and we want their lives to be blessed. I will not always be perfect and obey in every situation that comes along so God has made provision - 1 John 1:9. Does that give me permission to sin? Of course not - but it gives me a way back into fellowship with the Father, the Son and the household of God when and if I do. Just as my children won't and weren't always perfect but failed in some situations - I didn't say to them - "Oh sorry you've used up your voucher for forgiveness today so you have to stay in your room longer and I'm not sure when you will be restored back into the family - We'll wait until in the morning because that is a new day and see how you do then . . . You just best not use up your forgiveness voucher for tomorrow! Come on . . . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did to show you two scriptures that shows obedience before saved: Luke 13:3 and Acts 5:32

You can not be saved if you have not repented and have not received the Holy Spirit yet, and both those scriptures says you will still perish if you don't repent and that they Holy Spirit is given only to those who obey. Obey first-receive Holy Spirit-then saved !!!

REPENT AND FAITH ARE NOT WORKS OF OBEDIENCE. They are not even works. Jesus states it is the work of God we trust in him, and one can not have faith in Christ UNTIL THEY REPENT

Stop your fallacious arguments which have already been proven to be in error

Repent is to a work of obedience because it is a change of mind of looking on how sinful one once walked to then turn around and stop doing those sinful ways. Repentance is not true if it does not show out in ones outer actions, speech, and walk !!!

WRONG.

Repent is to AGREE with God of our sinful ways, and our debt we owe God, and an addition we have failed and are lost without God.

ACTIONS follow faith. you again have them PRECEDING FAITH.

Believe in Jesus - means to come to Him, hear what He said, and then go and do what He said..............

Yep, and that will not save you.

FAITH IN HIM will however save you. It means you TRUST him in what he says, and what he offers you.

Nowhere does the bible say a person who hears only is a true believer, but instead it says the opposite that a hearer only is deceived !!!

Dude, your falacious LIES against what I am trying to show you is getting redicuous. do you want to listen to what I believe in, or keep making false statements against me.

NO POST I have given to you have I said one can be a HEARER ONLY.

Now if you want to get into God's moral laws on rather they are to be obeyed then the answer to that is yes, because the bible clearly says those who love Him keep His commandments and those who do not love Him do not keep His commandments.

Love being the greatest command because by love all other commandments including the 10 will be upheld.
Apostle Paul made this clear in Romans 13:9-11 as the teachings of the Lord and all commands including the 10 moral commands of God will be upheld. One must first learn the difference between the moral law of God, and the Mosaic written ordinances in which the 10 Commandments are considered both !!!

Yet scripture also says that WE LOVE BECAUSE GOD LOVES US FIRST.

You can not love in a way God commanded UNTIL YOUR BORN AGAIN.

Keep thinking you can. you will fail miserably, you can not even comprehend Gods true love

Did Jesus command water baptism ??? YES

Christ gave many commands, If your going to make them ALL a prerequisite for salvation. Your teaching perfectionalism.

Did Peter and the other Apostles perform and continuing to command it after His death and resurrection ??? YES

They also made many commands we should follow. are they all a pre-requisite?

Did Peter say no man can forbid it to be done ??? YES

thats foolishness, Why would Peter say anything else. God commanded it, We should do it, to not do it would be a sin, and should be judged.

Thats not the issue, your making it a WORK required to EARN salvation. thats the issue

Did Peter and Paul both say by this baptism we are buried with Christ ??? YES

No! No water, and no person who needs saved himself can Baptise you into CHrist, ONLY GOD CAN.

this is baptism of the HS, NOT WATER BAPTISM.

Your trusting men and giving them credit for the work of God. thats no different than the pharisee saying satan performed the miracles. not God. Jesus called it blasphemy against the spirit. a sin which will not be forgive, You better repent my friend.

Once again you are taking a direct command by the Lord and doing away with it if you say it is not needed, why don't you take and say we don't have to follow anything the Lord said then !!!

lol Your taking a work God commanded, and making it essential to EARN YOUR SALVATION. you no better than the pharisees taking another direct command of God (circumcision) and making it a prerequisite.

I mean if you are going to do away with one of His commands you might as well do away with all of them.
Sorry you can do that but I won't do that !!!

I am not doing away with it, I am putting it where it belongs. as a work we are born again to do. along with every other work. (assembling ourselves together, feeding the poor. Giving to the church, Taking communion etc etc. And not twisting it to mean it cleanses and saves us. Whcih is not from God. but making the gospel a different gospel.

 

[KennethC]

There is no limit on how many times to repent, but once again that does not give a person the right and free will to sin !!!

The bible makes it very clear that if you repent of a sin then turn right around and continue to do it again then you have not truly repented. This is what Apostle James was saying about a hearer only who looks at himself in the mirror and sees what kind of person they are, but then soon as they look away from the mirror forget and do it again.

Just because the bible does not put a limit on repenting, does not mean you can continue to keep committing the same sins over and over and over again and try to excuse them by saying you repented. Repentance means not only a change of mind, but also an action of not wanting and continuing to commit them any more.

If your actions do not show a change in stopping those sinful actions, then you are not bringing forth fruit of a true repentance;

Matthew 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Where does scripture point out there is a limit on our asking forgiveness?

I don't REPENT every time I sin . . . to repent is to have a change of mind - I relate that to when I was an unbeliever I repented once - changed my mind - to have Christ as my Lord - Now, I am going through my day - I sin - I ask forgiveness, I am cleansed and I go about my business. All is good - my fellowship is restored. I will NOT say that I will "sin no more" for I am STILL in this body of flesh - the old man is still there hanging out and sometimes he wins out. Surely not proud of that but I am not going to live in shame and discouragement because I screwed up maybe 10 minutes out of a 24 hour day. I say I am sorry - I hope that I do not do that again - AND THAT IS MY HEART - THAT IS MY TRUE INTENT - but 2 seconds after I say it I may do it again . . . Are you human at all?

You are correct I have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in me - that is the divine nature - the new creation and within that creation I am holy, I am righteous and it is true that Christ gives us strength Phil. 4:13 and if the world were perfect, if MAN was perfect - then there would be no battle, there would be no race to run, no fight to fight for each and every believer would be perfect and also there wouldn't even be any need for 1 John 1:9 because we would have NOTHING to ask forgiveness for . . . . so if you continue to sin repent sin repent sin repent sin repent every single day that is a sign of not truly repenting and being guided by the Holy Spirit. - WHERE did you find this? WHY did God place a plan in position in case we should sin - forgiveness - Jesus Christ stands as our advocate before the Father. Again, what is my sin limit? NONE! . . . And if I say I don't sin - Well then I am a liar (1 John 1:10) - so I have sinned in that!!!!!

We are to obey . . . God placed rules and regulations in place so that we can live peaceably, safely and our lives will be blessed. Just as we as parents set rules and regulations for our children so they can live peaceably, safely and we want their lives to be blessed. I will not always be perfect and obey in every situation that comes along so God has made provision - 1 John 1:9. Does that give me permission to sin? Of course not - but it gives me a way back into fellowship with the Father, the Son and the household of God when and if I do. Just as my children won't and weren't always perfect but failed in some situations - I didn't say to them - "Oh sorry you've used up your voucher for forgiveness today so you have to stay in your room longer and I'm not sure when you will be restored back into the family - We'll wait until in the morning because that is a new day and see how you do then . . . You just best not use up your forgiveness voucher for tomorrow! Come on . . . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no limit on how many times to repent,

further proof you are making an allegory of a word. and not interpreting it correctly.

Repent means to change your mind. If I agree with god that lying is a sin, I have repented. If I fall into sin and ly, I do not have to repent again, I ALREADY REPENTED of it. I did not all of a sudden tell God. Sorry, it is not a sin, I am going to lie. I lied, KNOWING IT WAS A SIN, but my flesh was strong, and I was weak.

You can only repent once. this muliple repent crap is for the birds. Your MOCKING GOD AND HIS CHARACTER when you claim this. you claim he does not know your heart!

 

[A_Friend_In_Christ]

No one is perfect.

 

[KennethC]

They are not faulty arguments E.G., as you as always are putting things out of order.

Faith comes by hearing the word, not from repentance, and a person will not even know they have to repent of their sins unless they hear the Word of God first. Then and only then after hearing the word and trusting in what it said will they know to repent of sins.

That is where you are wrong about repentance, as in all places in the NT repentance is paired with turning away from the sinful nature we once walked in to be a new creation in Christ walking by the Spirit.

Then you keep acting like even after being born again a person can not keep God's 10 Commandments.
The Holy Spirit that is in us can not deny Himself and therefore can not break those commands, and the bible says only if you are drawn away by your own lusts can you sin and if you let that sin get full grown and control you again it will lead to spiritual death.

And no baptism is a righteous work of Christ because it is one of His commands we are told to keep because it is part of the obedience to receive the Holy Spirit, it is not a work of our own to earn salvation. If it is commanded by Jesus it is His works and not ours that must be done for salvation.

What you and others do is misuse what Ephesians 2:8-9 of saved by grace through faith and not by our own personal works, and try to apply that works to the Lords commands as well that He said has to be done. For you can not understand this passage without knowing Romans 5:6-10, for the grace that God showed that requires no work was that while we were still sinners and underserving He sent Jesus in the flesh to be crucified and die for our sins.

None of us were deserving of the Lord dying to pay the dept for our sins, but God did this out of His love for us.

The faith in Jesus now that puts us under that grace is an active faith that does require obedience and action or it is considered a dead faith.


Wrong again about baptism as the burial with Christ is the immersion in water, as when one is immersed in the water they are immersed in His death. Then when we rise out of the water we are risen in the Spirit as a symbol of His resurrection.
Water is the symbol of His death, and risen in the Spirit is the symbol of His resurrection !!!

The Pharisees did not make laws prerequisite for salvation, they corrupted and twisted the law for personal gain, and added additional stumbling blocks on others without helping them to overcome them. The Pharisees were self-righteous, not walking in the righteousness of Christ !!!

Taking a direct command from the Lord our God and telling others they don't have to obey it, is telling people they can be disobedient and still have salvation. That is contradictory to what the bible teaches as it says the disobedient servant will be appointed a place with the unbelievers in the lake of fire (Luke 12).

Look again at the order from Acts 2:38 from the Apostle Peter;

Peter said to them,

"Repent,
(1st step: repent of our sins)

and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
(2nd step: H2O baptism that was commanded in Matthew 28:19, and Mark 16:16)

and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(3rd step: Then after those do you receive the Holy Spirit.)

REPENT AND FAITH ARE NOT WORKS OF OBEDIENCE. They are not even works. Jesus states it is the work of God we trust in him, and one can not have faith in Christ UNTIL THEY REPENT

Stop your fallacious arguments which have already been proven to be in error



WRONG.

Repent is to AGREE with God of our sinful ways, and our debt we owe God, and an addition we have failed and are lost without God.

ACTIONS follow faith. you again have them PRECEDING FAITH.



Yep, and that will not save you.

FAITH IN HIM will however save you. It means you TRUST him in what he says, and what he offers you.



Dude, your falacious LIES against what I am trying to show you is getting redicuous. do you want to listen to what I believe in, or keep making false statements against me.

NO POST I have given to you have I said one can be a HEARER ONLY.



Yet scripture also says that WE LOVE BECAUSE GOD LOVES US FIRST.

You can not love in a way God commanded UNTIL YOUR BORN AGAIN.

Keep thinking you can. you will fail miserably, you can not even comprehend Gods true love


Christ gave many commands, If your going to make them ALL a prerequisite for salvation. Your teaching perfectionalism.

They also made many commands we should follow. are they all a pre-requisite?


thats foolishness, Why would Peter say anything else. God commanded it, We should do it, to not do it would be a sin, and should be judged.

Thats not the issue, your making it a WORK required to EARN salvation. thats the issue

No! No water, and no person who needs saved himself can Baptise you into CHrist, ONLY GOD CAN.

this is baptism of the HS, NOT WATER BAPTISM.

Your trusting men and giving them credit for the work of God. thats no different than the pharisee saying satan performed the miracles. not God. Jesus called it blasphemy against the spirit. a sin which will not be forgive, You better repent my friend.



lol Your taking a work God commanded, and making it essential to EARN YOUR SALVATION. you no better than the pharisees taking another direct command of God (circumcision) and making it a prerequisite.



I am not doing away with it, I am putting it where it belongs. as a work we are born again to do. along with every other work. (assembling ourselves together, feeding the poor. Giving to the church, Taking communion etc etc. And not twisting it to mean it cleanses and saves us. Whcih is not from God. but making the gospel a different gospel.

 

[KennethC]

further proof you are making an allegory of a word. and not interpreting it correctly.

Repent means to change your mind. If I agree with god that lying is a sin, I have repented. If I fall into sin and ly, I do not have to repent again, I ALREADY REPENTED of it. I did not all of a sudden tell God. Sorry, it is not a sin, I am going to lie. I lied, KNOWING IT WAS A SIN, but my flesh was strong, and I was weak.

You can only repent once. this muliple repent crap is for the birds. Your MOCKING GOD AND HIS CHARACTER when you claim this. you claim he does not know your heart!

Repentance is not just a change in mind !!!

Just agreeing that lying is a sin is not enough for a true repentance, you also have to stop lying..........

Once again the bible shows if you say you have repented then turn around and continue doing it, then your repentance was not a true repentance. As the bible says you have to produce fruit keeping with repentance, which means your actions to stop committing that sin and to walk properly is fruit kept with repentance.

No we are not mocking God about repenting multiple times, as Jesus gave us a worldly example of how repentance works and He did not show only a one time repentance;

[h=1]Luke 17:3-4[/h]3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you,[b] saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

Lord Jesus never taught a one time repentance, that was made up by man !!!

 

[just-me]

Repentance is not just a change in mind !!!

Just agreeing that lying is a sin is not enough for a true repentance, you also have to stop lying..........

Once again the bible shows if you say you have repented then turn around and continue doing it, then your repentance was not a true repentance. As the bible says you have to produce fruit keeping with repentance, which means your actions to stop committing that sin and to walk properly is fruit kept with repentance.

No we are not mocking God about repenting multiple times, as Jesus gave us a worldly example of how repentance works and He did not show only a one time repentance;

Luke 17:3-4

3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you,[b] saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

Lord Jesus never taught a one time repentance, that was made up by man !!!

Well said. Jesus said if anyone will come after Him let him pick up his cross DAILY and follow Him. Luke 9:23 Repentance is continuous when we are enlightened to the fact that we have fallen short in any given thing according to God's will for us.

 

[KennethC]

Well said. Jesus said if anyone will come after Him let him pick up his cross DAILY and follow Him. Luke 9:23 Repentance is continuous when we are enlightened to the fact that we have fallen short in any given thing according to God's will for us.

Yes I don't care if they get mad at me, call me names, and belittle and condemn me by their words.
For I will never budge form the Lord our God's truth in His word, and the word is correct when it says and shows false doctrines will blind those who are in them to the truth. No matter how many times we can show them how they flip flop scriptures around to place things out of order they still refuse to see it........

I will always stand up for God's truth and will not be swayed by the treatment of others, nor will I stop rebuking and reproving others by His Word when the Word gives us that right to do so !!!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

There is no limit on how many times to repent, but once again that does not give a person the right and free will to sin !!!

I never said anyone has the right to sin - I said that we would sin because of our fallen nature - just as God knew we would and he made provision for that.

The bible makes it very clear that if you repent of a sin then turn right around and continue to do it again then you have not truly repented. This is what Apostle James was saying about a hearer only who looks at himself in the mirror and sees what kind of person they are, but then soon as they look away from the mirror forget and do it again.

CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE . . . When I look into the mirror - I see a child of God, I see someone who has chosen to have Jesus as Lord in their life, believes God raised him from the dead and is therefore SAVED - end of salvation subject.

Now, I look and see someone whose heart it is to ALWAYS live godly in my Christian walk, I see someone who is weak in some areas, I see me in the flesh, weak stinky flesh and wishing with all my heart that I could do better, so I strive each and every day to live godly but I don't always come up to par - but I never forget where I was before nor what Jesus has done for me . . . You tell me that because of this I am not going to make it . . . I will not be in "heaven" . . . I am not truly saved. God tells me that if I confess Jesus as Lord and believe he was raised from the dead I am saved - God tells me that when I ask for forgiveness I am forgiven and cleansed. WHO do I believe?

I can only deal with one day at a time - Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Matt. 6:34 Thank God his mercies are new each morning! I NEED HIS MERCY AND GRACE whether anyone else does or not.

Just because the bible does not put a limit on repenting, does not mean you can continue to keep committing the same sins over and over and over again and try to excuse them by saying you repented. Repentance means not only a change of mind, but also an action of not wanting and continuing to commit them any more.

If your actions do not show a change in stopping those sinful actions, then you are not bringing forth fruit of a true repentance;

Matthew 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

I do my utmost to bring forth fruit of the Spirit dwelling within me - I do pretty good with showing forth peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, love, and joy - self control and faithfulness come a little harder but working on it and God is working in me working on it . . . I would say that I am pretty good at forbearance - HUH?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Well said. Jesus said if anyone will come after Him let him pick up his cross DAILY and follow Him. Luke 9:23 Repentance is continuous when we are enlightened to the fact that we have fallen short in any given thing according to God's will for us.

Oh, you are perfect too?

 

[KennethC]

I never said anyone has the right to sin - I said that we would sin because of our fallen nature - just as God knew we would and he made provision for that.

CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE . . . When I look into the mirror - I see a child of God, I see someone who has chosen to have Jesus as Lord in their life, believes God raised him from the dead and is therefore SAVED - end of salvation subject.

Now, I look and see someone whose heart it is to ALWAYS live godly in my Christian walk, I see someone who is weak in some areas, I see me in the flesh, weak stinky flesh and wishing with all my heart that I could do better, so I strive each and every day to live godly but I don't always come up to par - but I never forget where I was before nor what Jesus has done for me . . . You tell me that because of this I am not going to make it . . . I will not be in "heaven" . . . I am not truly saved. God tells me that if I confess Jesus as Lord and believe he was raised from the dead I am saved - God tells me that when I ask for forgiveness I am forgiven and cleansed. WHO do I believe?

I can only deal with one day at a time - Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Matt. 6:34 Thank God his mercies are new each morning! I NEED HIS MERCY AND GRACE whether anyone else does or not.

I do my utmost to bring forth fruit of the Spirit dwelling within me - I do pretty good with showing forth peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, love, and joy - self control and faithfulness come a little harder but working on it and God is working in me working on it . . . I would say that I am pretty good at forbearance - HUH?

When we are born again we no longer live in a fallen nature, as we are to live by the Spirit.

Yes God knew we would backslide and sin again, but that by no means says it will continue to happen everyday as it shows the Holy Spirit will empower us to refrain from sinning.


[h=1]James 1:22-24[/h]22But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.

Apostle James here is where he is saying a hearer only looks at himself and recognizes the sinful person they are, but then they go right back to doing that sinful behavior again. This is exactly what Hebrews 10:26-30 is saying about those who knowing the right way continue however to walk in sinful lusts are trampling the Son of God underfoot.

I am not telling you to deal with more than one day at a time, but what I am saying is to repent of a sin and then turn right around the next day and do it again is not a true repentance by what the bible shows a true repentance will look like.

That is good and praise God that you have the fruits of the Spirit working through you, and as you continue to walk those fruits should become more and more evident to where it becomes your new normal and your old sinful nature will be gone, overcome, and you will have your victory over sin.

It is a molding process that the Lord does by His Holy Spirit in us, and just because one may speak of being a little further in the faith then another is not being self-righteous. Even Apostle Paul showed and taught this transition from a babe in Christ to a mature believer in the faith.

We do not all mature in the faith at the same time, and some mature faster then others depending on what they either are or have gone through.....The bible says we are to help those who are weaker in the faith;

Romans 14:1
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

 

[Bookends]

I do not believe in sinless perfectionism, but rather we are being changed from glory to glory. Meaning that we are being transformed into the likeness of Christ and will be totally like Him in our resurrection of the the body. However, I don't totally agree that one can't lose their salvation if they total reject Christ and never come back to repentance or lost their faith.

Some might say this person, who once claimed to be in Christ and then denied Him afterward was never saved to begin with. Although this may be true, my answer to that is how do you know? Can you look down into the hearts of men. To say they were never to saved to begin with is like saying you knew their heart. I"m saying no man truly knows another man's heart, but only God knows that.

What the bible is absolutely clear about is this, that all who are in Christ are eternally secure. Outside of Christ there is no such guarantee. Also, it very clear that if you deny Him, He will deny you (if you never repent of your denial unto death).

Consider Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, [doesn't this suggest a willful rejection of Christ after receiving the knowledge of the truth, being the gospel of Jesus Christ? Verse 26 of this passage below implies this willful sinner was once sanctified]

there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he [the willful sinner] was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

This verse seems to be saying to me: by the willful man's rejection of the sanctification he previously received, a worst punishment awaits for him. He once believed, then he fell back to a onward willful rejection, which in he tramples the blood of Christ under his feet, as if to make it worthless and non-effective.

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

[KennethC]

I do not believe in sinless perfectionism, but rather we are being changed from glory to glory. Meaning that we are being transformed into the likeness of Christ and will be totally like Him in our resurrection of the the body. However, I don't totally agree that one can't lose their salvation if they total reject Christ and never come back to repentance or lost their faith.

Some might say this person, who once claimed to be in Christ and then denied Him afterward was never saved to begin with. Although this may be true, my answer to that is how do you know? Can you look down into the hearts of men. To say they were never to saved to begin with is like saying you knew their heart. I"m saying no man truly knows another man's heart, but only God knows that.

What the bible is absolutely clear about is this, that all who are in Christ are eternally secure. Outside of Christ there is no such guarantee. Also, it very clear that if you deny Him, He will deny you (if you never repent of your denial unto death).

Consider Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, [doesn't this suggest a willful rejection of Christ after receiving the knowledge of the truth, being the gospel of Jesus Christ? Verse 26 of this passage below implies this willful sinner was once sanctified]

there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he [the willful sinner] was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

This verse seems to be saying to me: by the willful man's rejection of the sanctification he previously received, a worst punishment awaits for him. He once believed, then he fell back to a onward willful rejection, which in he tramples the blood of Christ under his feet, as if to make it worthless and non-effective.

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to be wrong.

All that you have said is pretty much right on, and the only thing that I would not side with is the eternal security part.
Because the doctrine of eternal security says it is completely impossible for a believer to fall away from the faith. However Matthew 24:10, 1 Timothy 4:1, and James 5:19-20 all show that concept is false, and that is only 3 witnessing scriptures.

Some on here will try and tell you also that Hebrews 10 has nothing to do with salvation, but from verse 18 to 25 is speaking of repentance, remission of sins, baptism, confession, and then good works and not neglecting the assembling. Once you have received the knowledge of all this from the gospel teachings of Christ, if you then continue to deliberately sin it shows what that outcome will be !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

No your wrong, Your the one looking with a bias, not my sister.

It is building our foundation in Christ which EMPOWERS us to do his will. Our works proceed from our faith. The object of our faith is our foundation.



Our foundation is Jesus, thats why we will never lose faith, our foundation will never crumble no matter what the world throws at it.

But you teach a foundation can crumble, and it be lost. thats because your foundation is in what you do (or do not do) and not on Christ,

Your faith is in your foundation. Our foundation is Christ, your foundation is works.

That is what separates us.

All the liars teach a works based self false gospel no matter how they deny it....they can twist words all they want and at the end of the day those that interject self and works teach a false gospel with no power to save....it is that simple...my bible teaches that if you believe you are saved and presently having eternal life which is not temporary life!!!!!!!

 

[Bookends]

All that you have said is pretty much right on, and the only thing that I would not side with is the eternal security part.
Because the doctrine of eternal security says it is completely impossible for a believer to fall away from the faith. However Matthew 24:10, 1 Timothy 4:1, and James 5:19-20 all show that concept is false, and that is only 3 witnessing scriptures.

Some on here will try and tell you also that Hebrews 10 has nothing to do with salvation, but from verse 18 to 25 is speaking of repentance, remission of sins, baptism, confession, and then good works and not neglecting the assembling. Once you have received the knowledge of all this from the gospel teachings of Christ, if you then continue to deliberately sin it shows what that outcome will be !!!

So how could one loose their salvation if they are abiding in Christ?

Also, good works is not prerequisite for salvation, it's a byproduct. Paul makes it clear salvation is of faith alone, and not works. We can never be good enough to earn our salvation.

 

[Jason0047]

I never said anyone has the right to sin - I said that we would sin because of our fallen nature - just as God knew we would and he made provision for that.

No. There is no teaching in the Word that says you can sin and still be saved. Nowhere does it ever teach that.

The Scriptures say be ye angry and sin not and do not give place to the devil. However, what you are saying is you are going to sin no matter what at some point because of some fallen nature. So the Scripture that says, "be ye angry and sin not" cannot be applied to what you believe because you cannot ever truly "be angry and sin not." Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. Jesus would surely be pulling a cruel joke on the woman if she couldn't actually do what Jesus told her to do. That would be like telling her to jump off a cliff with the expectation that gravity is not going to effect. We even see the apostle John tell us, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not." So why is John writing to us? He says he writes these things unto us because we are not to sin. Jesus said to the Pharisees, Very truly I tell you, .everyone who sins, is a slave to sin" (John 8:34 NIV). Read Ephesians 4:17-27. It talks about how we used to be sinners but we are not that way anymore. Also Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of our eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you (Romans 6:14). How can sin not have dominion over you if you still have a fallen nature that still sins? Also, Jesus defined repentance for us in the Scriptures, too. For Jesus said the Ninevites shall rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to the end of Jonah chapter 3, you would see that the Ninevites had turned from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance. This is essentially saying to a person to.... "sin not." Not sure how you think the Biblle says otherwise.