Rapture= false teaching

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Jan 14, 2010
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First, I am not a dispensationalist. Second, there are early pre-tribber, though the majority were not. Finally, noting what is missing is not allegorical. The literal school holds that the meaning of any scripture is the intended meaning. You ask first, what did the human author say to his contemporaries. Then, what is divine Author saying to all who believe. The allegorical school of interpretation says that the original intended meaning is not important, what is important is the hidden Divine meanings which are revealed to each individual as God wills.
you say that there were early pre-tibbers... prove it.

the apostle John had 3 disciples, one of them was Polycarp. Irenaeus was the disciple of Polycarp, and taught post-trib, covenantalism, and futurism...
prove it.

and shad, I'm a simply lay person as well, just as you... however, i blindly believed everything i was told... blindly believed the fiction series called Left Behind, and blindly believed my pastor, without ever reading the Bible... and when i finally opened the Bible, wanting nothing but God's Word straight through and through, none of my personal beliefs or thoughts or opinions getting in the way, it was post-tribulation that the Word taught me.. not some escapist fly-away fantasy. It's false, it's a lie, and it is part of the great deception that has come upon this world.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
you say that there were early pre-tibbers... prove it.

the apostle John had 3 disciples, one of them was Polycarp. Irenaeus was the disciple of Polycarp, and taught post-trib, covenantalism, and futurism...
prove it.

and shad, I'm a simply lay person as well, just as you... however, i blindly believed everything i was told... blindly believed the fiction series called Left Behind, and blindly believed my pastor, without ever reading the Bible... and when i finally opened the Bible, wanting nothing but God's Word straight through and through, none of my personal beliefs or thoughts or opinions getting in the way, it was post-tribulation that the Word taught me.. not some escapist fly-away fantasy. It's false, it's a lie, and it is part of the great deception that has come upon this world.
The Shepherd of Hermes: "Well did you to escape from it, because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that your can be saved by no other than His great and glorious name...You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore and tell the elect of the Lord, His mighty deeds, and say to them this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it."
You confess that you have little training, are self taught in what little Greek you have, and that you reject the teaching of even those whom God chose for you to be under. There is nothing unChristian about your escatology, but look to your attitude. Your intolerance of others and your tendency toward broad and agressive generalities may be your downfall.
 
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charisenexcelcis

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I expect that if you examined the ecclesiology of the early church fathers you would find yourself in a precarious position regarding your attitude toward church leaders.
 
Jan 14, 2010
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the ecclesiology of the early church teachers is not what is being talked about here... do not change the subject.
this was about he teaching of eschatology within the church, more considering the return of Jesus Christ.

Yes, Christianity was slowly corrupted by paganism, and with the inclusion of Roman Catholicism, Christianity became more acceptable in the eyes of the world... premillennialism was called a heresy, and amillennialism became the norm.

and if you want to get into the Shepherd of Hermas, along with many of the other early church teachers...
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/018.pdf

i have no respect for dispensationalism, or pre-tribulationism, for that matter, and i never will... it teaches favoritism, escapism, and fear... fear of tribulation, of persecution... it promotes a lukewarm church, a body that foolishly believes that they wont be refined by fire because it has been taught that persecution is God's wrath on His children. It makes me sick, because it teaches the very same sins that i blindly followed for so long.

Shepherd of Hermas, 3rd vision
"You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their
ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great
glory. Stand steadfast, therefore, ye who work righteousness, and doubt
not, that your passage may be with the holy angels. Happy ye who
endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall
not deny their own life. For the Lord hath sworn by His Son, that those who
denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair, for even now
these are to deny Him in the days that are coming."

Shepherd of Hermas, 4th vision
"Twenty days after the former vision I saw another vision, brethren a
representation of the tribulation that is to come. I was going to a country
house along the Campanian road. Now the house lay about ten furlongs
from the public road. The district is one rarely traversed. And as I walked
alone, I prayed the Lord to complete the revelations which He had made
to me through His holy Church, that He might strengthen me, and give
repentance to all His servants who were going astray, that His great and
glorious name might be glorified because He vouchsafed to show me His
marvels. And while I was glorifying Him and giving Him thanks, a voice, as
it were, answered me, Doubt not, Hermas; and I began to think with
myself, and to say, What reason have I to doubt I who have been
established by the Lord, and who have seen such glorious sights? I
advanced a little, brethren, and, lo! I see dust rising even to the heavens. I
began to say to myself, Are cattle approaching and raising the dust? It
was about a furlong’s distance from me. And, lo! I see the dust rising more
and more, so that I imagined that it was something sent from God. But the
sun now shone out a little, and, lo! I see a mighty beast like a whale, and
out of its mouth fiery locusts proceeded. But the size of that beast was
about a hundred feet, and it had a head like an urn. I began to weep,
and to call on the Lord to rescue me from it. Then I remembered the word
which I had heard, Doubt not, O Hermas. Clothed, therefore, my brethren,
with faith in the Lord, and remembering the great things which He had
taught me, I boldly faced the beast. Now that beast came on with such
noise and force, that it could itself have destroyed a city. I came near it,
and the monstrous beast stretched itself out on the ground, and showed
nothing but its tongue, and did not stir at all until I had passed by it. Now
the beast had four colors on its head-black, then fiery and bloody, then
golden, and lastly white. Now after I had passed by the wild beast, and
had moved forward about thirty feet, lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if
she were proceeding from the bridal chamber, clothed entirely in white,
and with white sandals, and veiled up to her forehead, and her head was
covered by a hood. And she had white hair. I knew from my former visions
that this was the Church, and I became more joyful. She saluted me, and
said, Hail, O man! And I returned her salutation, and said, Lady, hail! And
she answered. and said to me, Has nothing crossed your path? I say, I was
met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through
the power of the Lord and His great mercy I escaped from it. Well did you
escape from it, says she, because you cast your care on God, and
opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no
other than by His great and glorious name. On this account the Lord has
sent His angel, who has rule over the beasts, and whose name is Thegri,
and has shut up its mouth, so that it cannot tear you. You have escaped
from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not
doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of
the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the
great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent
with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to
escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the
days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the
Lord, and He will direct them. Trust the Lord, ye who doubt, for He is allpowerful,
and can turn His anger away from you, and send scourges on
the doubters. Woe to those who hear these words, and despise them:
better were it for them not to have been born. I asked her about the four
colors which the beast had on his head. And she answered, and said to
me, Again you are inquisitive in regard to such matters. Yea, Lady, said I,
make known to me what they are. Listen, said she: the black is the world
in which we dwell: but the fiery and bloody points out that the world must
perish through blood and fire: but the golden part are you who have
escaped from this world. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes
useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue
steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For
as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and
straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower.
But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will
dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure.
Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This
then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will
be nothing. Remember those things which were written down before. And
saying this, she departed. But I saw not into what place she retired. There
was a noise, however, and I turned round in alarm, thinking that that
beast was coming.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
the ecclesiology of the early church teachers is not what is being talked about here... do not change the subject.
this was about he teaching of eschatology within the church, more considering the return of Jesus Christ.

Yes, Christianity was slowly corrupted by paganism, and with the inclusion of Roman Catholicism, Christianity became more acceptable in the eyes of the world... premillennialism was called a heresy, and amillennialism became the norm.

and if you want to get into the Shepherd of Hermas, along with many of the other early church teachers...
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/018.pdf

i have no respect for dispensationalism, or pre-tribulationism, for that matter, and i never will... it teaches favoritism, escapism, and fear... fear of tribulation, of persecution... it promotes the idea of a lukewarm church, a body that foolishly believes that they wont be refined by fire because it has been taught that persecution is God's wrath on His children. It makes me sick, because it teaches the very same sins that i blindly followed for so long.
Your passion must be seasoned with love. You can hold a strong opinion on this issue, that is well and good. I freely confessed that most of the evidence in the early church fathers was post-trib, although not as it is known today. They believed that they were in the midst of the Great Tribulation. They were not concerned about when it started or when it would end. They simply looked forward to His return. As persicution cooled they began to take other views, largely abandoning premillenialism. You may think that the escatology that you enspouse reflects theirs, but unless you think that you are in the midst of the tribulation, it is mostly modern.
 
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miktre

Guest
Your passion must be seasoned with love. You can hold a strong opinion on this issue, that is well and good. I freely confessed that most of the evidence in the early church fathers was post-trib, although not as it is known today. They believed that they were in the midst of the Great Tribulation. They were not concerned about when it started or when it would end. They simply looked forward to His return. As persicution cooled they began to take other views, largely abandoning premillenialism. You may think that the escatology that you enspouse reflects theirs, but unless you think that you are in the midst of the tribulation, it is mostly modern.
Our passion is deep, for I believe the rapture is nothing less than a lie from satan himself. You said you are prepared for the Great Tribulation if need be but I would say "ordinary Christians" are not and will follow the fake that will sit in the temple of God proclaiming to be God. It's seems like scripture after scripture gets ignored. Even the simplest of teachings get twisted into a complicated mess to suit the rapture doctrine. I've learned so much more since this thread started and I've seen how the Bible itself has cut off every avenue that the rapture tries to take.
For instance I cannot imagine how the rapurist can explain away this:




ROMANS 11
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Take heed, saved by race and not by grace crowd.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Take heed saved by race not by grace crowd.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

As you can clearly see we have distinct separation between Israel and the election.

Now they want to tell you this pertains to the supposed 'jews' only.

MATTHEW 24(Christ speaking)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now how great of lengths will pre-tribbers have to go to explain this away?
 
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Feb 27, 2007
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oooh Pretribulational (dispensational) premillennialism of all the ism's this is my favorite. I <3 google.
 
Jan 14, 2010
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i can see why it can be considered a favorite... it's the one that's easiest on the ears
 
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shad

Guest
the ecclesiology of the early church teachers is not what is being talked about here... do not change the subject.
this was about he teaching of eschatology within the church, more considering the return of Jesus Christ.

i have no respect for dispensationalism, or pre-tribulationism, for that matter, and i never will... it teaches favoritism, escapism, and fear... fear of tribulation, of persecution... it promotes a lukewarm church, a body that foolishly believes that they wont be refined by fire because it has been taught that persecution is God's wrath on His children. It makes me sick, because it teaches the very same sins that i blindly followed for so long.
You don't sound like a very happy camper. Your accusations and conclusions are very strange and filled with resentment and vindication and have no place in the body of Christ. Why is it that there is so much stock put in the early church (that proceeded the death of the last apostle) in justifying the understanding of certain doctrines? We now have the scriptures of both old and new testaments that have been canonized along with approximately (75) years of the early church starting at Pentecost. That is what God has provided in written form for our understanding in doctrine, in truth, in faith, in love, in the function, application and commission of the church and every member of that body. All the doctrines are right there in the scriptures and they all reveal the mind of Christ, the person of Christ and the work of Jesus Christ who is the head of the church. If you have a problem with sin, I suggest that you go to the cross, like the rest of us, and deal with them there. All your venting comes from the flesh and the natural mind of Adam. It all needs to be crucified experientially in your life and that's where the cross comes in.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
We know more now than ever because these things were sealed up until now

[FONT=&quot]Daniel 11 (King James Version)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 Then shall he (ANTICHRIST) return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Daniel 12 (King James Version)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, (TRIBULATION) such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (GREATEST): and at that time thy people (ISRAEL) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (THE FIRST RESURRECTION), and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (THE SECOND RESURRECTION) [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever (BELIEVERS). [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book(IT IS NOT TIME TO UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS UNTIL&#8230;..), even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro(WORLDWIDE COMMUNICATION), and knowledge shall be increased(EXPONENTIAL INCREASE IN KNOWLEGE). [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (SECOND (THE GREAT) HALF OF THE TRIBULATION); and when he (ANTICHRIST) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people (ISRAEL), all these things shall be finished. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand (Snail). [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (SECOND (GREAT) HALF OF TRIBULATION)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 
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greatkraw

Guest
Did Someone mention Irenaeus?

Against Hereies Book V Chapter 25


1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
 
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Ireneaus was post-trib as I showed before, most early church writers were. It's a pity you either aren't smart enough or intellectually honest enough to find that truth out for yourself.
 
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jesus_be4_religion

Guest
Heres where belief in the rapture could be very bad. Lets say you believe that you wont face any of the horrors of the trib but you do. Are you then going to rush into the arms of the Antichrist who proclaims a false peace. The bible says many Christians will come out of the tribulation an innumerable amount you could be part of those.
 
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That's a good point jesus_b4, Corrie Ten Boom sharing her experiences and writing about the rapture did say:



There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated &#8211; raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,
"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
&#8211; to stand and not faint."


In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
Heres where belief in the rapture could be very bad. Lets say you believe that you wont face any of the horrors of the trib but you do. Are you then going to rush into the arms of the Antichrist who proclaims a false peace. The bible says many Christians will come out of the tribulation an innumerable amount you could be part of those.
No, this is a ridiculous argument
 
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jesus_be4_religion

Guest
You cant just proclaim something is ridiculous without showing why. If people are looking forward to leaving this earth before the trib and they do not are they not going to be sadly disappointed maybe even in God.Then when this new leader comes performing miracles and bringing about a false peace proclaiming he is the Christ this might be just what they were waiting for the Antichrist.
 
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Honestly it doesn't sound any more far fetched than the world turning into chaos with planes falling out of the sky because the pilots were raptured....on the flip side if you're a post tribulationist and expecting to be post tribulated then if Jesus comes before the anti-Christ you may not believe it is Christ and so be left behind.
 
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jesus_be4_religion

Guest
Honestly it doesn't sound any more far fetched than the world turning into chaos with planes falling out of the sky because the pilots were raptured....on the flip side if you're a post tribulationist and expecting to be post tribulated then if Jesus comes before the anti-Christ you may not believe it is Christ and so be left behind.
Well Paul proclaimed that Christ could not come before the man of lawlessness revealed himself. It would not make sense anyways because Christ is supposed to defeat the Antichrist and cast him and the false prophet into the Lake of fire, but lets say Christ comes first and he calls all the saints into heaven before defeating Satan and the false prophet. You cant miss his call,its not like the Antichrist where you can confuse him for Christ,but if you think that Christ is next to set up his reign before the antichrist you could like the Jews did be sadly dissapointed and be lost.