Rapture= false teaching

[charisenexcelcis]

You cant just proclaim something is ridiculous without showing why. If people are looking forward to leaving this earth before the trib and they do not are they not going to be sadly disappointed maybe even in God.Then when this new leader comes performing miracles and bringing about a false peace proclaiming he is the Christ this might be just what they were waiting for the Antichrist.

We cannot decide upon our theologies based upon how we think people will react to them. An argument can be made for pre-trib based upon people waiting until the beginning of the seven years before commiting themselves, only to be caught off guard by the "taking up". Both arguments are silly reasons for taking one side or the other.

 

[imoss]

hmmm maybe they wont be caught off guard by the taking up... wouldnt it be ironic if the "elect" were those who didnt trust the Lord to deliver... upside would be you'd have no one to argue with in the rapture thread.. Regardless of how it goes pre mid or post, The Lord is our faithful Lord and we need not fear for he will give us what we need in all circumstances. He is our present Lord and we need to remember that in all our earthly trials whatever they may be he is absolutely right there beside us. Water from the Rock people, water from the rock!

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I think it's the pre-tribulationators that need to stop Tim LaHaye clouding their judgement. As far as I'm concerned (having spent a number of years in pre-tribulational teaching churches and being a pre-tibber myself) pre-tribbers know nothing more than Tim LaHaye and his writings for their justification for believing in such a heresy. If Tim Layahe's teachings is leaven, then the pre-tribulation movement has big problems.

I was a pre-tribber when Tim LaHaye was giving out financial advice. Heresy is a strong word. You sure you want to stand by that. Along with your condemnation of the entire United States of America. So, what is it about a belief in pre-trib that makes it a heresy? Specific Theology (i.e. beliefs about the nature of God)? No. Bibliology (beliefs regarding scripture)? No. Anthropology? No. Christology? No. Soteriology? No. Pneumetology? No. Ecclesiology? No. So, it must be that we disagree with Mahogony Snail.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Heresy means anything that's unorthodox and looking back into church history - it certainly is not orthodox.
There is a list of great bible preachers and theologians a page long who believed in post-trib rapture.
What's it got to do with the condemnation of the USA (I'm not sure where you pulled that one from)..but good try, any argument to hide the fact that pre-tribbers have NO PROOF for their belief. Besides the fact that most wackos I know predicting the end of the world was or is coming in 1970, 1980, 2006 or now 2012, also believed in pre-trib rapture. Maybe not heresy, how about "spirit of error", "last days doctrines of demons", "vain imaginations", is that enough strong words for you buddy? Here's what you do, you research the number of theologians and bible scholars who believed post trib or pre-trib. Start with Calvin and Luther if you like. Count them up. Then see who has the greater number. When you find that post-trib wins hands down, you are then forced into the difficult position to explain how a pre-trib rapture believe is supposedly 'clearly in the bible', but not believed by anyone really, prior to the 1750-1800's.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Heresy means anything that's unorthodox and looking back into church history - it certainly is not orthodox.
There is a list of great bible preachers and theologians a page long who believed in post-trib rapture.
What's it got to do with the condemnation of the USA (I'm not sure where you pulled that one from)..but good try, any argument to hide the fact that pre-tribbers have NO PROOF for their belief. Besides the fact that most wackos I know predicting the end of the world was or is coming in 1970, 1980, 2006 or now 2012, also believed in pre-trib rapture. Maybe not heresy, how about "spirit of error", "last days doctrines of demons", "vain imaginations", is that enough strong words for you buddy? Here's what you do, you research the number of theologians and bible scholars who believed post trib or pre-trib. Start with Calvin and Luther if you like. Count them up. Then see who has the greater number. When you find that post-trib wins hands down, you are then forced into the difficult position to explain how a pre-trib rapture believe is supposedly 'clearly in the bible', but not believed by anyone really, prior to the 1750-1800's.

By that definition, your escatology also qualifies. The first century church did not believe in a seven year tribulation as you do. Calvin and Luther did not believe as you do. Your escatology is no older than mine. Heresy has a specific meaning in theology, defining the line between truths that are unorthodox but remain within the definition of Christianity and those heresies, which fall outside the definition of Christianity. The reference to your condemnation of all of the United States of America is just an example of your method of resorting to hyperbole whenever your arguments run thin. You don't believe in a polling of theologians to determine theology, because you would fall short in many areas. I would guess that I agree more with those early church fathers than you do. But our theology is based upon scripture. If I was to outline my escatology it would be many pages without ever mentioning the tribulation. It is a minor thing that you get worked up about, but I suspect that it is important in your personal distinction.
By the way, given the predominance of the American Baptists in theology in the twentieth century, I suspect the count would be closer than you think.

 

[MahogonySnail]

charis you touched on an excellent point - no one believed in a 7 year tribulation period in the early church. In fact few believed in it much later either. I am partial pterist for that reason, with post tribulational tendencies . Why don't we find arguments between pre-tribbers and post-tribbers in the early church? Simply because no one really believed in a 7 year tribulation.


I like the following website that explains it best:

http://www.rapturetruth.org/

As we have seen, the entire 7-year theory is based on Daniel 9:27, which says:
He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease… (Daniel 9:27 KJV)
This may shock you, but historically, the vast majority of well-respected Bible scholars have not applied Daniel 9:27 to a seven-year period of tribulation at all. Neither have they interpreted the “he” as referring to a future antichrist (as many do today). Instead, they applied it to Jesus Christ.
Notice what the world-famous Bible commentary written by Matthew Henry says about Daniel 9:27: “By offering himself a sacrifice once and for all he [Jesus] shall put an end to all the Levitical sacrifices.” [1] Thus Matthew Henry applied Daniel 9:27 to Christ, not antichrist. Another famous commentary written by British Methodist Adam Clarke says that during Daniel 9:27’s “term of seven years,” Jesus Himself would “confirm or ratify the new covenant with mankind.” [2] Another dusty Bible commentary reveals: “He shall confirm the covenant—Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him.” [3]
Here’s one more statement from a book called, Christ and Antichrist, published in 1846 by the Presbyterian Board of Publication in Philadelphia. On page 2, under Recommendations, are endorsements from many Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist ministers, including an official representative of the Southern Baptist Convention. [4] Commenting on the final week of Daniel 9:27, that ancient volume states:

…sometime during the remaining seven, he [the Messiah] was to die as a sacrifice for sin, and thus bring in “everlasting righteousness.” Here are allusions to events so palpable, that one would think, the people among whom they occurred, could not possibly have misapplied the prophecy. [5]
Okay, the following ten points provide logical and convincing evidence that Daniel’s famous 70th week has no application to any future seven year tribulation at all. Rather, this great prophetic period was definitely fulfilled nearly two thousand years ago.

You seem to have a problem with me saying it is heresy but Corrie Ten Boom for one had no issue calling pre-trib teachings "false teachers". If I was her, and saw how Chinese and others were duped into believing that they would be rescued, only to find themselves persecuted beyond measure and unprepared for it, I would probably use such strong language too.

By the way, given the predominance of the American Baptists in theology in the twentieth century, I suspect the count would be closer than you think.

LOL you're appealing to American Baptists in the 20th centuary who are already indoctrinated into the pre-trib view and probably read Tim Lahaye too , good one. Although you could appeal to the Baptists,( Edwards I believe the one to popularise the pre-trib rapture).. the thing is that Christianity is far bigger than Baptists. Out of interest's sake which denomination do you pastor is it baptist? No you can't really count any Baptists , just look at the period between the 1500's and the 1800's. Or do you think theologians and bible scholars in that era of a period of 300 years were too stupid to realise the pre-trib rapture? This pre-trib rapture which is supposedly "clearly in the bible", but suspiciously involves a lot of mental gymnastics in order to prove and understand it. In fact I also know that get a few pre-tribbers together and they aren't even clear themselves on the details of the pre-trib rapture. That's because it's all made up fiction. Sure it keeps the money rolling in for LaHaye and anyone else who wants to write about it, it keeps congregations in fear and suspicion and conspiracy when talking about the end times and helps a pastor keep his flock under his thumb. But the thing is the vast majority of bible scholars did not believe in pre-trib rapture, and a sizeable amount still did not believe in a 7 year trib. period either.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Of course, Corrie Ten Boom, according to Shad, was corrected in her mistake by God when she reached heaven...

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Corrie ten Boom did not condemn pre-trib, she condemned those who taught that Christians would never have persicution. Did you ever meet Corrie ten Boom? She had an incredible way of seeing through presumption. One time she was on a particular television show, the first of two guests. Time got away, as it often would when one conversed with her. There wasn't time for the other man, so the host invited him to do the closing prayer. He stomped off. Corrie's reaction, "some people would rather pose than pray". She had another saying that you might consider before releasing your wrath on whole sections of the population: "Just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar, doesn't make it a cookie." Figure that out and get back to me.

 

[MahogonySnail]

First how about you thoroughly read Corrie Ten Boom's writings? Start with this one, a letter writen specifically to prepare people for the great tribulation
http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm

"There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world."

We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next.

 

[MahogonySnail]

By the way Charis, you were probably referring to what I said before about America regarding "condemning America"..

In America, the churches sing, “Let the congregation escape tribulation,” but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Actually this did not come from me but was part of Corrie Ten Boom's quote I posted.

 

[Zilla64007]

that tribulation is way out of contents from the great tribulation, but that's what you guys are good at anyhow ain't it

oh, so "great persecution" is different than "persecution"...because that's exactly what you're saying... just because it has the word "great" in front of it.

that's wishful and dangerous thinking... that kind of reasoning will only hurt a person in the long term of things.

 

[greatkraw]

Thats a big joke, I have stated time and again there will never be a rapture pre, mid , or post. Why can't you see that? Christ is coming, He is not coming twice, He is not stopping halfway and we fly up to Him and then turn around and fly back down with Him. When He comes He's coming all the way. At that point we are changed at that last trump and gathered by the angels in our spiritual bodies. Read the study below, I agree with everything in it.


17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.
Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a).used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky

​

Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.
Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek' as Pastor Arnold (A fine Christian Minister) of the (another Ministry on TV) terms it). This word 'clouds', as it is used here by Paul is a figure of speech, meaning a large group, used also by Paul in {Heb12:1},supplied below for your comparison:

Heb 12:1(Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)

​

Like I said, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."
Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)

​

Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: = I don't even have to tell you how the Rapturist interprets this word. But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)

​

This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).

​

Observe below:

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)

​

After Paul wrote this (the first book of Thessalonians) he began receiving reports from Thessalonica that this Scripture was being misinterpreted. Paul hastily, in a scant couple months, wrote the second letter (book) to the Thessalonians, we know this as {2nd Thessalonians}. In the second chapter of that second letter, Paul cleared up all traces of confusion regarding the Scripture we just studied (regarding the Rapture misinterpretation). We shall briefly study that second explanatory letter (2nd Thessalonians). But first, why don't we re-read those five verses that caused all the confusion in Thessalonica then, and in the Rapture churches today, bearing in mind what we just covered. Then we shall let Paul clear away all remaining confusion in the matter.
1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

OKMiktre,

Who are the 24 elders?

when is the Bema seat judgement?

 

[miktre]

OKMiktre,

Who are the 24 elders?

when is the Bema seat judgement?

24 elders=Great men of the Bible

Don't believe in the bema seat judgment.
The judgment day is always referred to in the singular.

Heb 9:27
27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (kjv)
2 Pet 3:7
7 but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (Kjv)
Matt 12:36
36 but I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (Kjv)
Matt 10:15
15 verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of sodom and gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (Kjv)
Matt 11:22
22 but I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for tyre and sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. (Kjv)
Matt 11:24
24 but I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (Kjv)
Mark 6:11
11 and whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for sodom and gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (Kjv)
2 Pet 2:9
9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (kjv)
I Jn 4:16-17
16 and we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (Kjv)
Jude 1:6
6 and the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Kjv)



​

 

[imoss]

wonders if there's any point to this thread. Minds have not been changed in 67 pages and many hours of research & typing... Suppose that could be said of any thread though so you go guys! & please do let me know if anyone has changed their mind because of anothers post & if you actually have seriously considered with an open heart what the other has written... I have to admit, I havent. Perhaps its time to go back & re-read the thread. whew that'lll be 67 pages of reading!

 

[miktre]

wonders if there's any point to this thread. Minds have not been changed in 67 pages and many hours of research & typing... Suppose that could be said of any thread though so you go guys! & please do let me know if anyone has changed their mind because of anothers post & if you actually have seriously considered with an open heart what the other has written... I have to admit, I havent. Perhaps its time to go back & re-read the thread. whew that'lll be 67 pages of reading!

Once I post something I love how I can go back and repost if need be.


Praise God, worth every second of every hour I put into it:
Quote:
At first i was wondering why you would bring such an evil message to this room.... as the message ended I saw the point of it and realize that there is a severe following of a false Christ that is going to happen and it seems as if it is already in the process... if you look at government today and the attitudes and decisions of the people in command of todays government it can be nothing less than apparent to those that pay attention to it... LET EVERYONE PRAY THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT DECIEVED BY THIS FALSERY AND SAVED BY THE GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST... i feel that the message that everyone should be aware of is that there is no way to the Father except through Jesus and all prayers should be in his name... dont be decieved by the devils trickery thats what he is good at and followers should be aware... the truth will set you free... Amen

 

[Graybeard]

If a person believes in pre-trb that does not mean they by default are going to believe in the false Christ, to think that is absurd.

 

[Zilla64007]

true... however, it does open one's self to deception

 

[greatkraw]

24 elders=Great men of the Bible

Don't believe in the bema seat judgment.
The judgment day is always referred to in the singular.

Heb 9:27
27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (kjv)
2 Pet 3:7
7 but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (Kjv)
Matt 12:36
36 but I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (Kjv)
Matt 10:15
15 verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of sodom and gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (Kjv)
Matt 11:22
22 but I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for tyre and sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. (Kjv)
Matt 11:24
24 but I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (Kjv)
Mark 6:11
11 and whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for sodom and gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (Kjv)
2 Pet 2:9
9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (kjv)
I Jn 4:16-17
16 and we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (Kjv)
Jude 1:6
6 and the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Kjv)​

The 24 elders represent the Church
The Bema seat judgement has to occur before the Great Tribulation because the elders have earned crowns which they then cast before Christ

 

[MahogonySnail]

If a person believes in pre-trb that does not mean they by default are going to believe in the false Christ, to think that is absurd.

Jesus told his disciples not to believe anyone that came and said 'I am He', before the tribulations had come to pass. So, the fact that pre-tribbers believe JEsus will come before the tribulation.....

 

[Graybeard]

Jesus told his disciples not to believe anyone that came and said 'I am He', before the tribulations had come to pass. So, the fact that pre-tribbers believe JEsus will come before the tribulation.....

ah no, you see if they are as learned in the Word as all the post-tribbers, then they should know how to recognize the son of perdition.....but I believe many will be deceived including pre/mid and post tribbers.