Don't Mix law & Grace

[ladylynn]

The carnal mind will fight against what I am going to present.

The end result is the same for those who are under the law and those who are without the law.

“For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;” (Romans 2:11-12)

If a person is under the law, they are making the law their authority without hearing the voice of the Giver. They are only hearing their own voice interpreting what the law means according to their carnal mindset of works without faith.

If a person has no law to observe, they also cannot hear the voice of the Giver, but are forced into hearing only what their voice is saying concerning right and wrong, claiming faith without works, which is a dead faith.

When the voice of God is heard, then God is the authority and not the law, even though the law still remains intact, and they are also under the grace of the Giver by faith.

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:17

According to the Aramaic language, (which was spoken at the time) this verse is better understood as follows.

“Think not that I am come to loosen, or release, (ashrea אשרא) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to unravel , but to complete (amala אמלא).

Being under the law is using the law as one's own authority with no grace obtained from the Giver. Throwing the law away also forces the individual to be one's own authority claiming grace from a Giver that they cannot hear. The end result is the same and both can be labeled as Pharisaical traditionalists.

When a man and woman are married via a marriage contract, and the woman goes to serve another man, as Israel went to serve other gods, then a divorce will occur. That doesn't negate the attributes of the husband, for his code of life remains the same. The Old Covenant can be completed, and incorporated into the New, but the Old Covenant cannot contain the New Testament in Christ in order to make the Old Covenant perfect.

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” Hebrews 8:7

The writer of Hebrews proves by the testimony of Jeremiah, that there is a second testament or covenant, and therefore that the first was not perfect, and can only be completed by Christ Jesus.

Hey Just-me., As a born again person, there is a total difference in how we are dealt with concerning the law. We are no longer subject to it. It has no power to condemn us as believers. We do suffer the consequences of foolish choices by sinning but the consequences are not God's judgment and wrath. The judgment and wrath for the believer has already been paid for in the body of Jesus on the cross. We are now the righteousness of God IN Christ. Our position has changed from lost sinner to found saint.

It's about covenants. Every covenant has certain terms and conditions detailing how we can experience God's blessings. In the Edenic covenant, all Adam and Eve had to do was not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Under the old covenant of the law, in order to get blessed they had to obey perfectly the 10 commandments.

But the new covenant is based entirely on God's unmerited favor and NOT our ability to keep the law. Some believers don't even know they are under a new covenant and are still trying to met the conditions of the old one.

Hebrews 8:10-13 explains the new covenant. The old says what WE must do and the new says what GOD will do. The laws that God writes on our hearts are not the 10 commandments. John 13:34 says He has given us a new commandment--to love one another as He has loved us. Rom. 3:27 Paul calls it the law of faith. We have His royal law of love and the law of faith.

Those laws are put in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and we learn to walk in them. All the commandments are summed up in Romans 13:9-10 "....You shall love your neighbor as yourself" Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The old law is inferior, it can only command you not to commit adultery, but it cannot make you love your spouse. It's all about the heart. Under the law you have a form of law-keeping. But under grace, you will experience the true substance.

The law deals with the superficial but God put His laws in our hearts so we can go to Him and ask for help in time of need and He shows us how to love as He does and we are able.

As a new covenant believer He speaks to us directly through the promptings of the Holy Spirit and His Word so that we may know His will. We don't have to go to a prophet or priest to find out His will for us., He Himself leads us. He puts His laws in our minds and writes them on our hearts.

All so different than the old covenant. Why would anyone want to live under that old covenant when we have this new one??????

 

[ladylynn]

I think as far as lukewarmness, I don't think it's talking about mixing grace and the law. Both grace and law have to do with sin. Grace covers us from sin, the law makes aware of what sin is. . . . . Whe I hear lukewarm when it comes to scriputre, I think of someone who is talking the talk but not walking the walk, or something along those lines. There's quite a few theologies out there state that grace covers everything so once you're saved you don't need to worry. If that's the case why are there people babbling and complaining about the homosexuality marriage being legalized? That I would call hypocricy in the system.

You are either for God and His ways, or you are again God and His ways. There is no middle ground. Twisting scripture around to state that lukewarmness is Grace vs. Law is basically stating lukewarmness is the bible vs. the bible. That maaaaaaaaaakes nooooo sense whatsoever. A house/kingdom divided cannot stand, but a house/kingdom united will.

Turning scripture to disprove other scripture is lukewarmness, and division of a united house.

Hello Biblelogic01, I too used to read that verse in Rev.3:16 as being on fire for God and being cold for God., and that God preferred anything but lukewarmness. Now after some study on it I see it is about mixing law and grace and trying to live inbetween. When Sarah had her son Isaac with Abraham she demanded that Hagar's son be put out. The 2 sons could not co-exist. I always thought that stunk that Abraham and Sarah caused Hagar to give birth to Ishmael and yet Sarah wanted that bondwoman and her son OUT. So they kicked both Hagar and Ishmael out of the camp into the desert. But it was God who said to Abraham to harken unto the voice of your wife. These are all pictures of law and grace. We are the seed of Abraham.

Sin has been taken care of by the blood of Jesus so His blood covers us from all sin as believers under the new covenant. Read my post #61 to just-me about how we follow a new commandment and under the law of love Romans 13:9-10

Find out what covenant you as a born again believer are under now, compared to those in the old testament. They wished they had what we have under the new covenant of grace.

 

[Biblelogic01]

I don't see anything wrong with follow commands in the old covenant.
My family does it, and it's actually brought my family closer spiritually and emotionally. I think there is a wrong way to follow Torah, and an incorrect way to follow Torah.

And you do know that God gave, as you put "That old covenant".

 

[Biblelogic01]

Hello Biblelogic01, I too used to read that verse in Rev.3:16 as being on fire for God and being cold for God., and that God preferred anything but lukewarmness. Now after some study on it I see it is about mixing law and grace and trying to live inbetween. When Sarah had her son Isaac with Abraham she demanded that Hagar's son be put out. The 2 sons could not co-exist. I always thought that stunk that Abraham and Sarah caused Hagar to give birth to Ishmael and yet Sarah wanted that bondwoman and her son OUT. So they kicked both Hagar and Ishmael out of the camp into the desert. But it was God who said to Abraham to harken unto the voice of your wife. These are all pictures of law and grace. We are the seed of Abraham.

Sin has been taken care of by the blood of Jesus so His blood covers us from all sin as believers under the new covenant. Read my post #61 to just-me about how we follow a new commandment and under the law of love Romans 13:9-10

Find out what covenant you as a born again believer are under now, compared to those in the old testament. They wished they had what we have under the new covenant of grace.

The way I look at it is, God has given me grace through Yeshua the Messiah, and God has also given instructions on how life should be lived. I follow both of those. You cannot properly follow Torah without understanding of the grace God has no put into Torah. Like I said there is a wrong way to follow Torah, but there is also a correct way.

 

[Biblelogic01]

I wish there was spell check on here -___-

 

[ladylynn]

Point taken... I argue a similar point from time to time in that God can be found through other religions due to a persons sincere heart on wanting to know God. This point of view does not sit well with many Christians though. Except for those that accept that God is the only one that knows a mans heart and ultimately judges that.

It is hard to see past the grand structures and so on for me though. Particularly after a recent trip to Europe and seeing these massive catholic church's. I was like WTH.. Why? and to see the same in a similar belief structure that I have I cant help but think WHY? Love of Money is the root of all evil and could be that 1% that poisons the tree. I don't know if it should be overlooked.

I get how when we begin looking at the person or the grand structures of the churches it can be difficult. But when I did that it showed me I was not listening to the message, I was looking at the messenger. Tons of Christians do that and totally miss the message.

People tag on labels on other people and it destroys their credibility. I find that so wrong. We can't just label people without hearing them out. And if we don't have time to listen to them, then it's best not to find fault based on limited information. Big churches have their place, and so do small ones and medium size ones. Or just meeting in each others houses. There is a place and a situation they fit into.

Trying to figure out why another Christian bought a $500 pair of shoes or a $600,000 home, or why someone didn't give a tip... or why someone moved into a bigger house when the one they had looked perfectly fine.... tons of things people do or don't do that we could judge.

I once went to a restaurant and didn't have any money for a tip. We had a large meal and no money for a tip! Had to leave to be at an appt. so couldn't talk to the waitress. Now I know that waitress was insulted., and for the time before I could get back to give her a tip, she would think ill of me.

There are so many reasons people do not meet our expectations and we must extend grace or we will be forever disappointed in people.

As far as God being found through other religions., you know that it's Jesus that saves and not religion.
If the religion doesn't have Jesus as the only way to God it doesn't matter how sincere that religion is.
They are sincerely wrong and it won't get them acceptance before God and we have to tell them about Jesus.

 

[Willie-T]

That doesn't make sense to me, because they are both God given. How can 2 things God given, put together be lukewarm?

It begins to make sense when you see a difference between the old covenant and the new..... because until you do, THAT is really what you are trying to combine. One, God said is done and over with, replaced by the other.

 

[just-me]

I don't see anything wrong with follow commands in the old covenant.
My family does it, and it's actually brought my family closer spiritually and emotionally. I think there is a wrong way to follow Torah, and an incorrect way to follow Torah.

And you do know that God gave, as you put "That old covenant".

Yes. We follow God's commandments because of God who gave them. We don't exclude God and observe the law accordingly, making the law our ruler instead of God. If we negate the law by our own beliefs, we are actually rejecting the Almighty God who, by His grace, gave us HIS commandments (His Word), that reveal to us His character i.e. His NAME. That Character is seen in His only begotten Son. In the Beginning was the Word.

 

[Biblelogic01]

I do understand the difference between the Old Covenant, and New Covenant. From what I've learned in my studies is that the New Covenant is an improved version of the Old Covenant. Does that mean the commands of the OC changed? I do not believe so. Because God stated specifically to teach it through all generations. If God intended for the commands to end, He would not have said to teach through all generations. The NC allows one to follow Torah with grace in it, but that does not give someone an excuse to live a sinful life. That's what I see this message as.

I see it as basically you have 2 choices, you can choose to follow Torah and be in Torah, or you can be "under grace". When I hear the term "under grace" I have the automatic assumption meaning you can do whatever the heck you want because you are saved. I do not believe grace is to be used like that.

For example, I keep the 7th day as the Sabbath. My job requires me to work ever other Sabbath. Does this mean I am going to throw away my job and lose my financial stability? No, there is grace. So there is no conviction there. There are plenty of examples of this in the gospel. Yeshua taught against man made traditions, not the traditions of God. An example on that is the whole issue of washing hands. Pharisees as a man made tradition washed hands, saducees didn't do this, I'm pretty sure there were sects of Jews that did/didn't follow it as a man made tradition. So Yeshua was teaching against following a man made tradition does not make you more righteous.


There'sa big assumption that people who follow/observe Torah, observe in ignorance to the NT. This is not the case. In observing Torah I've come to understand there is a wrong way to do that, and that's to follow it without Yeshua and the Spirit guiding you in it. Now if someone follows it with Yeshua and the Spirit guiding in it, I believe there is nothing wrong and no harm in it at all. There is an understanding of Torah when one observes it, and observes it properly.

Now I am not saying any of these posts to sway or turn someone or convict someone and say my way is better. I'm just defending that being Torah observant is not wrong in the way the OP is stating it to be.

 

[Willie-T]

I do understand the difference between the Old Covenant, and New Covenant. From what I've learned in my studies is that the New Covenant is an improved version of the Old Covenant. Does that mean the commands of the OC changed? I do not believe so. Because God stated specifically to teach it through all generations. If God intended for the commands to end, He would not have said to teach through all generations. The NC allows one to follow Torah with grace in it, but that does not give someone an excuse to live a sinful life. That's what I see this message as.

I see it as basically you have 2 choices, you can choose to follow Torah and be in Torah, or you can be "under grace". When I hear the term "under grace" I have the automatic assumption meaning you can do whatever the heck you want because you are saved. I do not believe grace is to be used like that.

For example, I keep the 7th day as the Sabbath. My job requires me to work ever other Sabbath. Does this mean I am going to throw away my job and lose my financial stability? No, there is grace. So there is no conviction there. There are plenty of examples of this in the gospel. Yeshua taught against man made traditions, not the traditions of God. An example on that is the whole issue of washing hands. Pharisees as a man made tradition washed hands, saducees didn't do this, I'm pretty sure there were sects of Jews that did/didn't follow it as a man made tradition. So Yeshua was teaching against following a man made tradition does not make you more righteous.


There'sa big assumption that people who follow/observe Torah, observe in ignorance to the NT. This is not the case. In observing Torah I've come to understand there is a wrong way to do that, and that's to follow it without Yeshua and the Spirit guiding you in it. Now if someone follows it with Yeshua and the Spirit guiding in it, I believe there is nothing wrong and no harm in it at all. There is an understanding of Torah when one observes it, and observes it properly.

Now I am not saying any of these posts to sway or turn someone or convict someone and say my way is better. I'm just defending that being Torah observant is not wrong in the way the OP is stating it to be.

I only read to the enlaeged type. Because you completely left the Bible behind with that one statement.

 

[dcontroversal]

I wish there was spell check on here -___-

Google it.....if I have a word I am unsure of I just google it and it will give you the correct spelling....!

 

[Biblelogic01]

I only read to the enlaeged type. Because you completely left the Bible behind with that one statement.

All the studying I've done has been from the bible. . . . . Where else would I study scripture.

 

[KennethC]

I don't watch to much of Joseph Prince because I have seen some of his sermons in the past where he was teaching falsely.
He said for one that the Holy Spirit does not convict people of sins which is completely unbiblical.

When we are talking about the 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic law and not mixing it with the new covenant of Grace, then I would agree with him on that extent.

However we must learn to discern that the bible speaks of 2 laws;
One being the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws, and the other is perfect law of liberty (law of Christ).

The perfect law of liberty does apply in the new covenant and those commands are this;
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind

Love your neighbor as yourself

By believing in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and obeying those two commands will uphold the 10 moral commands of God and will lead one in obedience to follow the rest of the Lords teachings/commands (Romans 13:9-11). If somebody is telling the 10 commandments do not apply under the new covenant then I would suggest to look for a new church or instructor, because I can show you a lot of places the 10 commandments are upheld in the NT !!!

 

[Gr8grace]

I don't watch to much of Joseph Prince because I have seen some of his sermons in the past where he was teaching falsely.
He said for one that the Holy Spirit does not convict people of sins which is completely unbiblical.

When we are talking about the 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic law and not mixing it with the new covenant of Grace, then I would agree with him on that extent.

However we must learn to discern that the bible speaks of 2 laws;
One being the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws, and the other is perfect law of liberty (law of Christ).

The perfect law of liberty does apply in the new covenant and those commands are this;
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind

Love your neighbor as yourself

By believing in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and obeying those two commands will uphold the 10 moral commands of God and will lead one in obedience to follow the rest of the Lords teachings/commands (Romans 13:9-11). If somebody is telling the 10 commandments do not apply under the new covenant then I would suggest to look for a new church or instructor, because I can show you a lot of places the 10 commandments are upheld in the NT !!!

Ken,

The holy Spirit convicts unbelievers of one sin........unbelief.

He convicts the believer of nothing.

He grieves for us or we quench Him.

We are under no mandates to "love" God, or "love" your neighbor.

The christian is to be filled with the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, do not grieve or quench the Spirit. If we follow these mandates(The only mandates for Christians) we fulfill ALL, ALL,ALL of what God expects from us. The moment we grieve or quench the Spirit............we are following NONE of what God expects from us.

I am not very eloquent or good with words, but if we are walking around thinking " I need to love God and my fellow man!" we probably have the Spirit quenched. If we were in the Spirit, we would just be doing it.

 

[pwrnJC]

This is unbelievable! How dare you speak for the Holy Spirit and limit HIM to ONE SIN..unbelief. How shallow a walk are you displaying here? Since when are we NOT to love GOD or LOVE your neighbor? From what denominal background did you come from? Why would someone declare that we are under NO mandate to LOVE, period? Take your twisted viewpoints out of here..they are NOT needed..it only causes confusion..and confusion only comes from one source...and please do not claim that source as GOD.

 

[KennethC]

Ken,

The holy Spirit convicts unbelievers of one sin........unbelief.

He convicts the believer of nothing.

He grieves for us or we quench Him.

We are under no mandates to "love" God, or "love" your neighbor.

The christian is to be filled with the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, do not grieve or quench the Spirit. If we follow these mandates(The only mandates for Christians) we fulfill ALL, ALL,ALL of what God expects from us. The moment we grieve or quench the Spirit............we are following NONE of what God expects from us.

I am not very eloquent or good with words, but if we are walking around thinking " I need to love God and my fellow man!" we probably have the Spirit quenched. If we were in the Spirit, we would just be doing it.

That is wrong for the bible shows that every time a person sins they grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), and in Hebrews 12:5-7 is shows that believers when they sin are chastised by the Lord. This is done by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, and it says if you do not feel that chastising then you are not sons/born again believers.

What do you think walking in the Spirit means ???

It means that you walk by the fruits of the Spirit and the greatest fruit is love, and again read Romans 13:9-11 where the Apostle Paul shows clearly that by love all the teachings and commands of the Lord will be upheld, including the 10 commandments which are God's moral commands.

The commands that the Lord gave as the two greatest commands do apply under the new covenant, and like I said I can show you many places the 10 commandments are upheld in the new covenant. So once again if you are being taught they do not then you need to find another instructor !!!

 

[KennethC]

This is unbelievable! How dare you speak for the Holy Spirit and limit HIM to ONE SIN..unbelief. How shallow a walk are you displaying here? Since when are we NOT to love GOD or LOVE your neighbor? From what denominal background did you come from? Why would someone declare that we are under NO mandate to LOVE, period? Take your twisted viewpoints out of here..they are NOT needed..it only causes confusion..and confusion only comes from one source...and please do not claim that source as GOD.

Yes, Apostle John speaks in his epistle that those who do not love do not know God for God is love !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

There are three things listed in John that the Holy Spirit does as comforter......!

 

[Willie-T]

Question: Can you REALLY love your neighbor and your enemy when you feel you are doing it "out of obedience" because you were ordered to do it?

 

[dcontroversal]

Is not love a commandment? A new commandment that I give unto you...........?