Forbidden to look at Big 10?

[bondservant]

Grateful I am so happy you posted that example, that's the point I was getting at. The Jews thought the same way as you do not to throw you under the bus but to explain the fullness of the law. That's what Jesus did in Matt chapter 5. God never intended it to be just for the carnal but also spiritual. Their are many forms of adultery in the old testament not just unfaithfulness to your wife. You can commit adultery against God by choosing someone else or something else that you love better. If we are the bride of Christ we are then married to him. If I choose (let's say) not to witness to people because its embarrassing to my friends or family (and we know that it is our great commission) I've just committed adultery for I love my friends and family more than God. If I hate a certain person because he just rubs me the wrong way his looks or the way he treats others but he has not offended me in any way (just one of those people) I am guilty of murder. The Pharisees and scribes of the temple taught only the carnal law and therefore adorned themself with self righteousness by placing ribbons and tassels and such on there robes like trophies saying look at me I keep the law, but Jesus leveled the playing field in Matt 5 when he told them and the people the true intent of the law. Showing that no one was capable of keeping it, save one Jesus. So we rest in his finished work, he is the perfect sacrifice, our atonement, our Passover, our Sabbath if you will.

 

[crossnote]

Friend, how can we believe that the law came without mercy if we see the account of Rahab the prostitute or the many times God forgave Israel for their transgressions? Surely if we read the OT we can see God's grace even while they were keeping the law?

When I say law, I mean that which God requires of us to do.Failure to meet it's demands was punished. Christ met those demands and took our punishment that's why there's mercy and grace because of the Gospel. Rahab was shown mercy not because of the law but she believed in the God of Israel and the reports concerning their God and the promise the spies gave to her..

 

[just-me]

The law came without mercy but demanded justice.
It was gracious only in the fact that it reveals sin but it gave no power to man for keeping the law.
As a general cohesive for society, it gives direction for a sound society (10 Commandments)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23

I believe what Jesus said opposed to your comment.

Your insertion of larger fonts twists the reading; it should read like "weightier matters of the law and judgment and mercy and faith", nice try.

I didn't insert anything. I quoted from the KJV. Lets see what the earlier version of the 1599 Geneva Bible says.

Woe be to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: for ye tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and leave the weightier matters of the law, as judgment, and mercy and fidelity. These ought ye to have done, and not to have left the other. Matthew 23:23

Hypocrites are careful in trifles, and neglect the greatest things of purpose. Faithfulness in keeping of promises.

Now let's look at the Aramaic New Testament.

Woe to you scribes and Pharisees! Hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and you overlook the weightiest things of Torah: Judgment and Mercy and Faith. And these things were necessary for you to have done, and these things you should not have forgotten. Matthew 23:23

What am I trying? I am quoting scripture. If you don't like it talk to Christ about what He said, not me. I deem scripture as truth.

Let's look at "mercy" in the Torah which includes the law of God that He gave to Israel via Moses.

And showing "mercy" unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

Now where was God's seat in the temple if He wasn't sitting on the "MERCY SEAT?"

 

[Willie-T]

Ok, you had me fooled, for a sec it looked like the gals were getting the best of ya.

The gals always get the best of me..........

 

[crossnote]

I didn't insert anything. I quoted from the KJV. Lets see what the earlier version of the 1599 Geneva Bible says.

Woe be to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: for ye tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and leave the weightier matters of the law, as judgment, and mercy and fidelity. These ought ye to have done, and not to have left the other. Matthew 23:23

Hypocrites are careful in trifles, and neglect the greatest things of purpose. Faithfulness in keeping of promises.

Now let's look at the Aramaic New Testament.

Woe to you scribes and Pharisees! Hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and you overlook the weightiest things of Torah: Judgment and Mercy and Faith. And these things were necessary for you to have done, and these things you should not have forgotten. Matthew 23:23

What am I trying? I am quoting scripture. If you don't like it talk to Christ about what He said, not me. I deem scripture as truth.

Let's look at "mercy" in the Torah which includes the law of God that He gave to Israel via Moses.

And showing "mercy" unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

Now where was God's seat in the temple if He wasn't sitting on the "MERCY SEAT?"

863 [e]
aphēkate
ἀφήκατε
you have neglected
V-AIA-2P3588 [e]
ta
τὰ
the
Art-ANP926 [e]
barytera
βαρύτερα
weightier [matters]
Adj-ANP-C3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
of the
Art-GMS3551 [e]
nomou
νόμου :
law
N-GMS3588 [e]
tēn
τὴν
-
Art-AFS2920 [e]
krisin
κρίσιν ,
justice
N-AFS2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj3588 [e]
to
τὸ
-
Art-ANS1656 [e]
eleos
ἔλεος ,
mercy
N-ANS2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj3588 [e]
tēn
τὴν
-
Art-AFS4102 [e]
pistin
πίστιν .
faithfulness
N-AFS3778 [e]
tauta
ταῦτα
these
DPro-ANP1161 [e]
de
δὲ
moreover
Conj1163 [e]
edei
ἔδει
it behoved [you]
V-IIA-3S4160 [e]
poiēsai
ποιῆσαι ,
to do
V-ANA2548 [e]
kakeina
κἀκεῖνα
those [others]
DPro-ANP3361 [e]
mē
μὴ
not
Adv863 [e]
aphienai
ἀφιέναι* .
to be leaving aside
V-PNA

First there is no punctuation in the Greek such as commas and colons etc. Do you notice the word kai (and) before the word mercy? That sets the distinction between law and mercy. It is interesting though there is no conjunction between law and judgment for that is the nature of the law.

Sorry here is the text...

Οὐαὶ ὑμῖν, γραμματεῖς καὶ Φαρισαῖοι, ὑποκριταί, ὅτι ἀποδεκατοῦτε τὸ ἡδύοσμον καὶ τὸ ἄνηθον καὶ τὸ κύμινον, καὶ ἀφήκατε τὰ βαρύτερα τοῦ νόμου, τὴν κρίσιν καὶ τὸν ἔλεον καὶ τὴν πίστιν· ταῦτα ἔδει ποιῆσαι, κἀκεῖνα μὴ ἀφιέναι.

 

[ember]

Reading this thread, it almost seems like some folks believe they invented salvation, know God personally and would like to beat the other half with what they know

You deserved that steak dinner and I hope you had cheesecake for desert

Half the problems, IMO, are caused by people either misreading, not reading to the end of post and deciding they had better fire off a volley toute de suite to save everyone, a desire to be in control or poor comprehensions skills caused by:

1. dna
2. bad ed-u-macation
3. an agenda that determines everyone else is wrong because if they ever admitted they might be wrong, their world would cave and finally,
4. bad eyesight which is fixable...see an optometrist

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

When I say law, I mean that which God requires of us to do.Failure to meet it's demands was punished. Christ met those demands and took our punishment that's why there's mercy and grace because of the Gospel. Rahab was shown mercy not because of the law but she believed in the God of Israel and the reports concerning their God and the promise the spies gave to her..

I agree with you 100%, but even today we have two end destinations. Where you end up is up to you. We will either accept God's grace (like Rahab) and build a relationship or we will be turned away because of our lack of faith.

 

[crossnote]

I agree with you 100%, but even today we have two end destinations. Where you end up is up to you. We will either accept God's grace (like Rahab) and build a relationship or we will be turned away because of our lack of faith.

Ok, but that is a decision based on the offer of the Gospel promise (to believe it or not) not the threat of the law.The threat of damnation is a result of refusing the Gospel offered in Christ Jesus.

 

[crossnote]

Reading this thread, it almost seems like some folks believe they invented salvation, know God personally and would like to beat the other half with what they know

You deserved that steak dinner and I hope you had cheesecake for desert

Half the problems, IMO, are caused by people either misreading, not reading to the end of post and deciding they had better fire off a volley toute de suite to save everyone, a desire to be in control or poor comprehensions skills caused by:

1. dna
2. bad ed-u-macation
3. an agenda that determines everyone else is wrong because if they ever admitted they might be wrong, their world would cave and finally,
4. bad eyesight which is fixable...see an optometrist

I like arguing, it relieves my headaches, unconstipates and gives me a good night's sleep LOL.

 

[Is]

I agree and my point stands.....the grace of God was not fully realized until the N.T. and in the face and personage of JESUS.......even the O.T. prophets desired to see the things which the disciples were seeing, but it had been hidden to some extent and that is the point I was making!

the grace of God was not fully realized until the N.T.

If you had made this point before I did I would not have said anything to you, you didn't make you position clear.

 

[crossnote]

Here is where God's law and mercy are found together...

 

[Willie-T]

Reading this thread, it almost seems like some folks believe they invented salvation, know God personally and would like to beat the other half with what they know

You deserved that steak dinner and I hope you had cheesecake for desert

Half the problems, IMO, are caused by people either misreading, not reading to the end of post and deciding they had better fire off a volley toute de suite to save everyone, a desire to be in control or poor comprehensions skills caused by:

1. dna
2. bad ed-u-macation
3. an agenda that determines everyone else is wrong because if they ever admitted they might be wrong, their world would cave and finally,
4. bad eyesight which is fixable...see an optometrist

Honestly? It wasn't as enjoyable as it could have been if I had bet the other way around, and won. I might liken it to the hollow "satisfaction" of saying, "See, I told you so." at the end of the world.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Ok, but that is a decision based on the offer of the Gospel promise (to believe it or not) not the threat of the law.The threat of damnation is a result of refusing the Gospel offered in Christ Jesus.

I never believe that the law kept us from damnation and nowhere in the Bible we will find a verse like that. Salvation was always by faith (Hebrews 11) but the law was the instructions from God and also to give Israel God's characteristics. Yeshua came to restore the broken covenant and give us a restored covenant. It is our duty to find out if this new covenant is so much different from the old one...

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Here is where God's law and mercy are found together...

I will respectfully disagree with you on this Crossnote and if you give me a moment I will explain myself.

Yeshua didn't die on the cross because of the law. While he was beaten and dragged to the cross the Jews were not keeping their own law. The law that killed Yeshua was a twisted version from the Jews my friend. The Torah actually protected Yeshua but Caiaphas twisted the Torah to crucify Yeshua.

 

[crossnote]

I never believe that the law kept us from damnation and nowhere in the Bible we will find a verse like that. Salvation was always by faith (Hebrews 11) but the law was the instructions from God and also to give Israel God's characteristics. Yeshua came to restore the broken covenant and give us a restored covenant. It is our duty to find out if this new covenant is so much different from the old one...

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[crossnote]

I will respectfully disagree with you on this Crossnote and if you give me a moment I will explain myself.

Yeshua didn't die on the cross because of the law. While he was beaten and dragged to the cross the Jews were not keeping their own law. The law that killed Yeshua was a twisted version from the Jews my friend. The Torah actually protected Yeshua but Caiaphas twisted the Torah to crucify Yeshua.

That cross was planted back when Adam and Eve first transgressed. At the cross you see righteousness fulfilled, our sin placed upon Christ, our due punisment under the law satisfied and grace and mercy extended to us law breakers.

Genesis 3:15 (KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

That cross was planted back when Adam and Eve first transgressed. At the cross you see righteousness fulfilled, our sin placed upon Christ, our due punisment under the law satisfied and grace and mercy extended to us law breakers.

Genesis 3:15 (KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Amen brother. Since day 1 that cross was planted...

 

[just-me]

First there is no punctuation in the Greek such as commas and colons etc. Do you notice the word kai (and) before the word mercy? That sets the distinction between law and mercy. It is interesting though there is no conjunction between law and judgment for that is the nature of the law.

Sorry here is the text...

Οὐαὶ ὑμῖν, γραμματεῖς καὶ Φαρισαῖοι, ὑποκριταί, ὅτι ἀποδεκατοῦτε τὸ ἡδύοσμον καὶ τὸ ἄνηθον καὶ τὸ κύμινον, καὶ ἀφήκατε τὰ βαρύτερα τοῦ νόμου, τὴν κρίσιν καὶ τὸν ἔλεον καὶ τὴν πίστιν· ταῦτα ἔδει ποιῆσαι, κἀκεῖνα μὴ ἀφιέναι.

I won't quote all of your post, for it's all Greek to me LOL

It's Greek. Let's go back further in the original language of Jesus day and see what the Aramaic says, which I quoted before in post 83 without the 2nd translation of the Greek Septuagint 2 or 300 years later.

I'm not sorry, but here is the original text. Nuff said. Mercy was with God's every word whether you like it or not.

וי לכון ספרא ופרישא נסבי באפא רמעסרין אנתון בהיכלא ימא בה ובמן רעמר בה

What do you refuse to comprehend about the quote from Exodus 20:6 which is certainly a substantial part of the 10 commandments? Do I detect a stiffness in your neck?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Our unchanging God has aways been ready to show mercy rather than to punish. If you insist on saying mercy was never part of God's 10 commandments, or a substantial part of the law, along with judgment, and faith, you do not know our Father in heaven's "name" very well.

"Mercy" is clearly seen in the 3rd commandment of the 10.

 

[Willie-T]

Being locked out of the Garden was the ULTIMATE demonstration of Mercy.

 

[ember]

Honestly? It wasn't as enjoyable as it could have been if I had bet the other way around, and won. I might liken it to the hollow "satisfaction" of saying, "See, I told you so." at the end of the world.

I get that

which is why my husband says I waste my time...but I like Christian forums anyway!