The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
Why do you think Jesus used the example of these VERY precisely religious devout guys when He said that our "righteousness" would have to surpass that of the Pharisees?

Because they DID very carefully keep the LETTER of all the law....... outwardly. (This was the beautiful stinging sarcasm of our Lord that I love so much.) and the average man who had to work for a living couldn't even HOPE to match their appearance of "righteousness." And, thus HAD to come to depend solely upon Jesus.
The Pharisees did not keep the Law. They ignored the weightier matters of the law like justice, faith, and mercy (Matthew 23:23).
 
K

KennethC

Guest
The Pharisees did not keep the Law. They ignored the weightier matters of the law like justice, faith, and mercy (Matthew 23:23).

Thank you Jason, and yes I already showed them this scripture from the bible as well as the other times Jesus called them out for corrupting His laws and even adding to them. Plus I showed them how they did things to be seen by others as in doing things for self and not because of the love for God. Still rejected by them though !!!
 
J

jonl

Guest
Thank you Jason, and yes I already showed them this scripture from the bible as well as the other times Jesus called them out for corrupting His laws and even adding to them. Plus I showed them how they did things to be seen by others as in doing things for self and not because of the love for God. Still rejected by them though !!!
Not only that, but Jesus called the Pharisees "whited sepulchers" because beneath their show of perfection, they were probably adulterers and idolaters (occultism).
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Not only that, but Jesus called the Pharisees "whited sepulchers" because beneath their show of perfection, they were probably adulterers and idolaters (occultism).

Yes as there is a clear difference of making a show to look perfect, and actually being perfect !!!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,329
6,696
113
no, both are lies. one perfect walked the earth. you ain't Him.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
no, both are lies. one perfect walked the earth. you ain't Him.

That is correct only Jesus was the only one who was sinless in the flesh, the rest of us have fallen short and have sinned.

The thing is though is once you are born again the Holy Spirit that is given to us is sent to guide us to mold us to walk as the Lord walked. We will never be sin free as we have sinned in the past, but the fruits of Spirit help us to keep from being controlled by sin in the future and thus have victory over sin.

If a person continues to be sinful everyday then that is a clear sign they are not born again as those fruits are shown by the bible will be evident in all born again believers. Those the fruits are not produced in Jesus says will be cut off and burned !!!
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
The Pharisees were the religious sect that were the keepers and givers of the law, but they themselves did not keep it perfectly as Jesus Himself pointed out. Or do you deny what Jesus said when He told them they did not follow parts of the law???

If they kept it perfectly as you have said then the Lord Jesus would not have called them hypocrites, vipers, and white washed tombs who forced others to obey the Mosaic laws that they themselves did not keep. They gave the word in a condemning tone, and did not follow the other parts of the law.

The Pharisees did things to be seen by others to get self recognition, and for self financial gain. In other words they did what they did for self and not for the love of God, which is why you can easily see they where self-righteous by the scriptures. Anybody who rejects that they were self-righteous needs to study and read the scriptures closer !!!
No, not a Scriptural sect. Sorry, do some studying on them. I spent twelve years getting all this stuff, but thanks to computers, you should be able to find plenty in a week, or so.

They did what they did for societal reasons. The Law of Moses had nothing at all to do with attaining Salvation. Nothing. They did their showy stuff to get the blessings God had made a deal with them, (a covenant) that they would receive if Israel kept the law. They saw the common man was not keeping the law, so they decided to band together to do that for the whole nation.... securing the blessings.

At first (surprisingly, just like Hitler) they were a good thing, and they were sincere men. But like Hitler, it all went to Hell in a hand-basket when they got a taste of power. Even then, there were still several good Pharisees in Jesus' day.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
No, not a Scriptural sect. Sorry, do some studying on them. I spent twelve years getting all this stuff, but thanks to computers, you should be able to find plenty in a week, or so.

They did what they did for societal reasons. The Law of Moses had nothing at all to do with attaining Salvation. Nothing. They did their showy stuff to get the blessings God had made a deal with them, (a covenant) that they would receive if Israel kept the law. They saw the common man was not keeping the law, so they decided to band together to do that for the whole nation.... securing the blessings.

At first (surprisingly, just like Hitler) they were a good thing, and they were sincere men. But like Hitler, it all went to Hell in a hand-basket when they got a taste of power. Even then, there were still several good Pharisees in Jesus' day.

Sorry but I have done a in depth study on this already and they did not keep the law perfectly, and Jesus clearly showed in the scriptures that they didn't.

I will continue to believe the Word of God that says they didn't keep the law perfectly, and that what they did was for self and not for others.

Nobody said the Mosaic laws had anything to do with salvation, and keeping them does not either as the bible clearly says the written ordinances were done away with. However once again one must understand the difference in the Mosaic laws and the commandments of the Lord also called the perfect law of liberty. One applies in the new covenant and the other does not !!!
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
Sorry but I have done a in depth study on this already and they did not keep the law perfectly, and Jesus clearly showed in the scriptures that they didn't.

I will continue to believe the Word of God that says they didn't keep the law perfectly, and that what they did was for self and not for others.

Nobody said the Mosaic laws had anything to do with salvation, and keeping them does not either as the bible clearly says the written ordinances were done away with. However once again one must understand the difference in the Mosaic laws and the commandments of the Lord also called the perfect law of liberty. One applies in the new covenant and the other does not !!!
Then I'd suggest you start again. You have totally missed what they did.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
Pharisees: If the law said to give to the poor, they would walk three blocks out of their way to keep from passing by where the poor guys sat. To them, they WERE thus keeping the Law. THIS WAS JESUS' WHOLE POINT.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
God calls us to "Stand." Is standing earning or is it simply doing? Yet, isn't it still doing? Similar to the one who falsely tries to earn?

Those similarities can sometimes get confused.

God has not called us to see grace as an "end-game." If we are free we are free to do as we ought, God gives us a heart that wants to please Him for He is so wonderfully merciful to us. and as that becomes our station of operation of thought we run to please God thru our obedience to Him. Obedience for what? Anything He wants! What does He want? The bible is full of His desires.

We must remember the hundred or so lifespan years we live on earth, becomes the reel -to -reel playback in heaven of what we did with the Grace He gave us will be our account of how we decided to trust God. God has won the battle of Satans rebellion, yet, we have a Spiritual battle that is in real time and is still responsible for our outcome. I am not second guessing God's promises here, simply saying we yet have to live out those promises, unto death. Our real end-game is in "Standing" in things, now, already accomplished in Christ. This standing is an act on our part; yet, not for the sake to earn anything, but to take hold of the victory God has given us. Not an aggressive stand but a "I will not move " stand.

Why do we need to take hold if God's grace is never altered? Because the battle yet wages for the soul of man, regardless of the absolute victory found in standing in Christ. Until we have gone thru a life of "Standing." We are not free from Satan's influences, his suggestions, his attempts to divert us from our stand.

Well even if we lose our stand He will save us! No, He doesn't promise that. He promises that even if we lose our stand He will forgive us. He promises that He will leave the flock to get, even, the one that leaves to call him back. But He cannot over rule our choice to leave. For, He cannot by the very nature of Himself in His righteousness be in view of sin. Thus, Christ must cover him, thru the blood of the cross.

But, if we stay the problem is solved completely. He has given us a way, and not only provided a way but He has procured success in that way, This all started form the payment of sins debt owed on the Cross, and led to our victory thru His resurrection., we must now simply "STAND!" But that is still an act, an act which has nothing to do with earning. Grace saved us and Jesus also said faith saves us. Faithfulness is another way of saying "Standing."

You see God has a plan for us. It is not just getting us to Him, it is having Him be seen thru us. It is His Glory that He wants seen as well> Holiness for us is His end game, which leads to His glory. And what is His glory is ours for we are family thru Sonship with Jesus who is also God thru the triune. Grace does two things, it gives us God's mercy amply applied, to a point of forgivness of sins if we but confess ,.... and second, it empowers us to show Gods glory in our lives as God gives us Jesus' history and resources to stay from sin, if we but "Stand." Not earn! Why is the sinless thing important? Because it is saying Christ's victory has no loop-holes in it--Or, as He said it best, "It is finished!" It's not important to call ourselves sinless, it is important to know the authority of God over Satan. And that this authority rests in each and everyone of His saints. Will our tally sheet be perfect, no. But could our tally sheet be perfect AFTER our regeneration? -Yes, because it has nothing to do with me now, and I don't second guess the completeness of God's victory over Satan.

These chapters of earth are our plight in life. And there is a warfare over our souls going on. Not just in the beginning of our regeneration, where Christ had to come to get us from sins grip, but after, as well. Satan wants you back and he is furious and knows he has a limited time to get you back. He knows he is powerless to get you back, [theres Christ"s guarantee that Satan understands better than most of us], but he also knows he has some time to be that stumbling block to your success found in Him. And he knows if he can get you out of the circle, he can destroy you one-on-one again.

Do you Remember being a sinner and not feeling Satans attacks? That's because He had ya, but after you surrendered to God what happened? All of Hell breaks loose literally! He doesn't have you, and he is powerless to get you back...UNLESS, you come away from your victory which is Christ Jesus. This option is what fuels him and the demons that work for him.

Think of yourself standing in a circle, this circle is Christ in you. As long as you stay in the circle you win life, but if you allow whatever winds that blow to take you off that circle boundaries you are out of the power source of victory, and are headed to death. Now here's the cool part. The God who drew the circle also put anything you need to not let any outside winds or force knock you out of the circle-gauranteed. He made the circle portable, so as to allow you to even go to the gates of Hell losing no power from the circle. He even made it possible to enter into His face with this circle. And this is from the one who is ruler of everything so you know it will happen.

He even says when the winds come He will provide a way around the winds and influences, He Himself will fight your fights for you to simply stay in that life-bearing circle. Of coarse you must recognize the power of your "Will" that it can change those guarantees by stepping out by choice of that circle.

Both staying in the circle and leaving it has your will in control. But staying victorious in it is Gods job. But He has empowered you to not only stay but flourish in it.

The "Parables of the seeds" gives us insight into Satan's abilities:

As We see Jesus talking we see Him talking to the saints, when he describes Satans ammo and abilities: It says Satan and his demons can steal the truth away, sin opens that door. Satan can make us easily offended, causing us to sin. But if we allow God to battle for us we win here- guaranteed! Satan can divert our minds, something he has no power to do if we but stand, but if we do not it is a sin. But there is a group of people He describes that bore fruit beyond their ability to bare, this is the group who stood. Not in themselves but in Christ Jesus; the circle.. These people show the glory of God. God's holiness is seen and in us. It is worthy to note that thru all of this warfare if we "Stand" in the circle God will not let any one of us slip out of His grip.

None of this is earning, or us availing success. But it is recognizing our will as a player here. We must simply stand, a burden God describes as light, and easy. But yet, one we must procure.

"Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, [speaking to brethren here,] we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:32.

Scripture does not say, "Faith without works is not as good as trying,but it's not a deal breaker., because all have sinned and fall from God's glory" It says, 'Faith without works is dead." That's a call to arms in the area of "Standing." Now it's hard to hear those words and not associate it with the Salvation thru works camps, but that is my point here. We can't earn anything we do, however, need to "Stand." Which is the work of obedience He is commanding us to be, not just do.For if we are Christ-like we are Christ empowered.
Beautiful words brother. Thank you so much.
And may God bless you greatly.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Then I'd suggest you start again. You have totally missed what they did.
Pharisees: If the law said to give to the poor, they would walk three blocks out of their way to keep from passing by where the poor guys sat. To them, they WERE thus keeping the Law. THIS WAS JESUS' WHOLE POINT.

You are off the mark my friend as that is not at all what Jesus was saying.

Lord Jesus clearly said they did not keep the whole law, and by going out of their way so that they knowingly would not pass by any poor is not keeping the law. Maybe in their mind it was, but not by the true word of God !!!
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
God calls us to "Stand." Is standing earning or is it simply doing? Yet, isn't it still doing? Similar to the one who falsely tries to earn?

Those similarities can sometimes get confused.

God has not called us to see grace as an "end-game." If we are free we are free to do as we ought, God gives us a heart that wants to please Him for He is so wonderfully merciful to us. and as that becomes our station of operation of thought we run to please God thru our obedience to Him. Obedience for what? Anything He wants! What does He want? The bible is full of His desires.

We must remember the hundred or so lifespan years we live on earth, becomes the reel -to -reel playback in heaven of what we did with the Grace He gave us will be our account of how we decided to trust God. God has won the battle of Satans rebellion, yet, we have a Spiritual battle that is in real time and is still responsible for our outcome. I am not second guessing God's promises here, simply saying we yet have to live out those promises, unto death. Our real end-game is in "Standing" in things, now, already accomplished in Christ. This standing is an act on our part; yet, not for the sake to earn anything, but to take hold of the victory God has given us. Not an aggressive stand but a "I will not move " stand.

Why do we need to take hold if God's grace is never altered? Because the battle yet wages for the soul of man, regardless of the absolute victory found in standing in Christ. Until we have gone thru a life of "Standing." We are not free from Satan's influences, his suggestions, his attempts to divert us from our stand.

Well even if we lose our stand He will save us! No, He doesn't promise that. He promises that even if we lose our stand He will forgive us. He promises that He will leave the flock to get, even, the one that leaves to call him back. But He cannot over rule our choice to leave. For, He cannot by the very nature of Himself in His righteousness be in view of sin. Thus, Christ must cover him, thru the blood of the cross.

But, if we stay the problem is solved completely. He has given us a way, and not only provided a way but He has procured success in that way, This all started form the payment of sins debt owed on the Cross, and led to our victory thru His resurrection., we must now simply "STAND!" But that is still an act, an act which has nothing to do with earning. Grace saved us and Jesus also said faith saves us. Faithfulness is another way of saying "Standing."

You see God has a plan for us. It is not just getting us to Him, it is having Him be seen thru us. It is His Glory that He wants seen as well> Holiness for us is His end game, which leads to His glory. And what is His glory is ours for we are family thru Sonship with Jesus who is also God thru the triune. Grace does two things, it gives us God's mercy amply applied, to a point of forgivness of sins if we but confess ,.... and second, it empowers us to show Gods glory in our lives as God gives us Jesus' history and resources to stay from sin, if we but "Stand." Not earn! Why is the sinless thing important? Because it is saying Christ's victory has no loop-holes in it--Or, as He said it best, "It is finished!" It's not important to call ourselves sinless, it is important to know the authority of God over Satan. And that this authority rests in each and everyone of His saints. Will our tally sheet be perfect, no. But could our tally sheet be perfect AFTER our regeneration? -Yes, because it has nothing to do with me now, and I don't second guess the completeness of God's victory over Satan.

These chapters of earth are our plight in life. And there is a warfare over our souls going on. Not just in the beginning of our regeneration, where Christ had to come to get us from sins grip, but after, as well. Satan wants you back and he is furious and knows he has a limited time to get you back. He knows he is powerless to get you back, [theres Christ"s guarantee that Satan understands better than most of us], but he also knows he has some time to be that stumbling block to your success found in Him. And he knows if he can get you out of the circle, he can destroy you one-on-one again.

Do you Remember being a sinner and not feeling Satans attacks? That's because He had ya, but after you surrendered to God what happened? All of Hell breaks loose literally! He doesn't have you, and he is powerless to get you back...UNLESS, you come away from your victory which is Christ Jesus. This option is what fuels him and the demons that work for him.

Think of yourself standing in a circle, this circle is Christ in you. As long as you stay in the circle you win life, but if you allow whatever winds that blow to take you off that circle boundaries you are out of the power source of victory, and are headed to death. Now here's the cool part. The God who drew the circle also put anything you need to not let any outside winds or force knock you out of the circle-gauranteed. He made the circle portable, so as to allow you to even go to the gates of Hell losing no power from the circle. He even made it possible to enter into His face with this circle. And this is from the one who is ruler of everything so you know it will happen.

He even says when the winds come He will provide a way around the winds and influences, He Himself will fight your fights for you to simply stay in that life-bearing circle. Of coarse you must recognize the power of your "Will" that it can change those guarantees by stepping out by choice of that circle.

Both staying in the circle and leaving it has your will in control. But staying victorious in it is Gods job. But He has empowered you to not only stay but flourish in it.

The "Parables of the seeds" gives us insight into Satan's abilities:

As We see Jesus talking we see Him talking to the saints, when he describes Satans ammo and abilities: It says Satan and his demons can steal the truth away, sin opens that door. Satan can make us easily offended, causing us to sin. But if we allow God to battle for us we win here- guaranteed! Satan can divert our minds, something he has no power to do if we but stand, but if we do not it is a sin. But there is a group of people He describes that bore fruit beyond their ability to bare, this is the group who stood. Not in themselves but in Christ Jesus; the circle.. These people show the glory of God. God's holiness is seen and in us. It is worthy to note that thru all of this warfare if we "Stand" in the circle God will not let any one of us slip out of His grip.

None of this is earning, or us availing success. But it is recognizing our will as a player here. We must simply stand, a burden God describes as light, and easy. But yet, one we must procure.

"Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, [speaking to brethren here,] we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:32.

Scripture does not say, "Faith without works is not as good as trying,but it's not a deal breaker., because all have sinned and fall from God's glory" It says, 'Faith without works is dead." That's a call to arms in the area of "Standing." Now it's hard to hear those words and not associate it with the Salvation thru works camps, but that is my point here. We can't earn anything we do, however, need to "Stand." Which is the work of obedience He is commanding us to be, not just do.For if we are Christ-like we are Christ empowered.
"Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm." (Ephesians 6:13 ESV).

 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
God gives us a heart that wants to please Him for He is so wonderfully merciful to us.
So if we don't make the "stand".............

It was Gods fault that he didn't give us a heart "big" enough and not quite enough mercy to make that "stand?"


We are still are OWN, after He saves us?
 
K

KennethC

Guest
"Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm." (Ephesians 6:13 ESV).


Yes and what does the Apostle Paul say about the helmet;

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
Yes and what does the Apostle Paul say about the helmet;

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Glorification (i.e. the final stage of our salvation); And it sure will be beautiful.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Glorification (i.e. the final stage of our salvation); And it sure will be beautiful.
Yes Apostle Paul says multiple times that by faith we seek for and hope to receive salvation/eternal life.
This is why I always pose the question to those who believe it is a immediate physical possession, why do we seek for or hope to receive something we already have ??? Answer: because we are only mentally assured of receiving it by keeping the faith in Christ.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
Yes Apostle Paul says multiple times that by faith we seek for and hope to receive salvation/eternal life.
This is why I always pose the question to those who believe it is a immediate physical possession, why do we seek for or hope to receive something we already have ??? Answer: because we are only mentally assured of receiving it by keeping the faith in Christ.
It because we need to understand position in Christ and experiential sanctification in this life.

Why do you suppose that we are called to put all the armor on now? Because we are in a spiritual battle in time and this life.

Do you think we put on the helmet of salvation when we die? No way, that baby goes on the instant we are saved. Why would God want us to be helmet free in this hell hole?

the believers who have their helmet off, war against the believers who have their helmet on. The believers who have their helmet on war against the evil of religion and the system of the world.

Believers who have taken their helmets off............are in the cosmic system. Not the immoral, loose living cosmic system. But the evil, moral, religious cosmic system.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
It because we need to understand position in Christ and experiential sanctification in this life.

Why do you suppose that we are called to put all the armor on now? Because we are in a spiritual battle in time and this life.

Do you think we put on the helmet of salvation when we die? No way, that baby goes on the instant we are saved. Why would God want us to be helmet free in this hell hole?

the believers who have their helmet off, war against the believers who have their helmet on. The believers who have their helmet on war against the evil of religion and the system of the world.

Believers who have taken their helmets off............are in the cosmic system. Not the immoral, loose living cosmic system. But the evil, moral, religious cosmic system.

I don't disagree that we put on the armor of God right away, but once again the helmet Paul says is the hope of receiving salvation. Not that you already physically have it now, as the helmet is symbolism for mentality thinking of being assured that you will receive eternal life by standing firm in the faith tell the end.

What happens if you don't stand firm in the faith and fall away to go back to unrepented sinful lifestyle? That is the part that I am trying to show others from the scriptures as it clearly shows those who do this will not receive eternal life. The bible nowhere says falling away or departing from the faith is impossible.