The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists
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K
Thanks Ken.
From my studies.......a person who goes back into a sinful lifestyle or loses their assurance of salvation and thinks it is possible to lose salvation will be a faithful, content, tear free,happy, joyful shoe shiner for the believers who are reigning with Christ.
Read about the disobedient servant in Luke 12 and the disobedient goats in Matthew 25 and then tell me where it says they end up? I can tell you it does not say eternal life or in the kingdom of heaven !!!
Did they alter the coarse of sinful natures control over them? Or any of mankind? Did they repent of the position of relying on the law as a means to and end with God, when John was sent with the message of repentance as a red carpet to the eventual answer, the Spirit baptism vs. the water baptism? What is the point of noticing anything they did in relationship to the goodness they wanted to show?? I notice the work ethic of Mormons, I notice the work ethic of Catholics, which i can appreciate, but I do not believe the beliefs they hold make a difference to my Salvation. So what's the point? The point to me is there is a difference between the law of man, as a means to an end, and the laws of God, which are ordained by God and are worked out by Christ in us. One is a means to an end, one is a response to the giver of the already accomplished request. Not a comparison that is equal in comparison at all. I serve a full powered God, not a half-powered one.
I have my helmet on and I need not war against anyone! For the sound of those word's on the cross: "It is finished!" was not just a recognition of a sacrifice but a final note to the completeness of Satan"s defeat. If Satan is defeated what do i have to battle for God's sake that Christ has not already won on the cross? Why would God want us to be helmet free in this hell whole? well He doesn't but the helmet is a defensive piece to Him for us. Why would God want us to lay the shield down when facing a 9 ft. Philistine giant? and not use a sword over a sling? Why would God call 32,000 people, facing an army of 135,000 a mismatch favoring the 32,000, Reducing it to 300? Why would he use a man with a speech impediment to preach His word to many? Go figure huh?!! His battle plan is different than ours, His battle plan comes from an already won position of His glory and mercy. I don't even know where the religious evil cosmic system would be located.
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S
A truly born again person will have no rest, no peace if they have failed to forgive someone. They will be brought ever lower with no rest or peace until they have forgiven anyone they need to forgive
But you show the contradiction in your beliefs, for you I am sure do not obey each and every literal command of Christ, you quote selectively. But as you appear to hinge your faith on the literal letter, are you in rebellion against God if you yourself do not obey all of christs commands?
BTW
If you want to know the truth of sin, righteousness and judgement you must read beyond the gospels. Christ told his disciples there was much more he wanted to tell them of these matters but they were bot yet ready to bear such knowledge-as many today will not bear it.
But you show the contradiction in your beliefs, for you I am sure do not obey each and every literal command of Christ, you quote selectively. But as you appear to hinge your faith on the literal letter, are you in rebellion against God if you yourself do not obey all of christs commands?
BTW
If you want to know the truth of sin, righteousness and judgement you must read beyond the gospels. Christ told his disciples there was much more he wanted to tell them of these matters but they were bot yet ready to bear such knowledge-as many today will not bear it.
E
For those of s who understand faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen.
We understand, if we have no HOPE of salvation (which we can not see) we have NO POWER against the kosmos system (world)
Our battle is not against flesh and blood, it is against principalities and powers and unseen things (including our own flesh)
A person with no hope. has no power. They are useless to God
Those like you and jason who preach salvation can be lost. preach NO HOPE> only fear
We understand, if we have no HOPE of salvation (which we can not see) we have NO POWER against the kosmos system (world)
Our battle is not against flesh and blood, it is against principalities and powers and unseen things (including our own flesh)
A person with no hope. has no power. They are useless to God
Those like you and jason who preach salvation can be lost. preach NO HOPE> only fear
here's something about the "final stage of our salvation"
hmm, says here we were saved - saved in hope of the redemption of our bodies, and that is what we patiently wait for.
doesn't say that we are not saved until our bodies are redeemed and free of all sin & unholy lust.
says salvation is a past-tense thing we passively received, the Spirit a present-tense thing we also received, and the "perfection" of our bodies a future hope we passively await.
so what do we all think that means about this idea of present-time sinless perfectionism, or redemption of our flesh as pre-requisite to our hope?
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
(Romans 8:23-25)
(Romans 8:23-25)
hmm, says here we were saved - saved in hope of the redemption of our bodies, and that is what we patiently wait for.
doesn't say that we are not saved until our bodies are redeemed and free of all sin & unholy lust.
says salvation is a past-tense thing we passively received, the Spirit a present-tense thing we also received, and the "perfection" of our bodies a future hope we passively await.
so what do we all think that means about this idea of present-time sinless perfectionism, or redemption of our flesh as pre-requisite to our hope?
who hopes for what they already have?
actually Paul talks about salvation mostly in the past tense - a thing already given to us. he talks about us as those who "have been saved" - not as those who "might be saved if they perfect themselves"
the Perfector - it is Christ, not me. the completion of His work in me is what i hope for - with assurance, because it has begun - and when that work is finished, i will no longer need His mercy, because of His mercy. on that day, we will be with Him, and fully made like Him.
as for now, i stand continually in a time of need, always requiring His mercy, and always standing only because of it.
the weightier matters - justice, faith, mercy -- the Father has justified me, it is His faithfulness towards me that my faith is in, and it is His mercy i look toward and try to emulate.
these three things, that i love, none of them are found in me except He put them there and does them in and through me.
that salvation that we hope for in the future is the completion and culmination of the thing God is doing in us presently -- see my post above
i have no doubt He is able to finish what He started. i don't care to be fooled into thinking it is already accomplished though - isn't my existence here on this earth right now proof that He's still working on me?
but to think this Master Carpenter will put His tools down and leave me on the workbench unfinished, or toss me into a scrap pile like a failed project - that is no faith at all.
we have assurance, because we know He is able, and faithful, and we know He has begun this thing in us.
the Perfector - it is Christ, not me. the completion of His work in me is what i hope for - with assurance, because it has begun - and when that work is finished, i will no longer need His mercy, because of His mercy. on that day, we will be with Him, and fully made like Him.
as for now, i stand continually in a time of need, always requiring His mercy, and always standing only because of it.
the weightier matters - justice, faith, mercy -- the Father has justified me, it is His faithfulness towards me that my faith is in, and it is His mercy i look toward and try to emulate.
these three things, that i love, none of them are found in me except He put them there and does them in and through me.
that salvation that we hope for in the future is the completion and culmination of the thing God is doing in us presently -- see my post above
i have no doubt He is able to finish what He started. i don't care to be fooled into thinking it is already accomplished though - isn't my existence here on this earth right now proof that He's still working on me?
but to think this Master Carpenter will put His tools down and leave me on the workbench unfinished, or toss me into a scrap pile like a failed project - that is no faith at all.
we have assurance, because we know He is able, and faithful, and we know He has begun this thing in us.
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Exactly! There is a difference between do not abide in sin habitually (do not practice sin - 1 John 3:9) and live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect life 100% of the time. Only Jesus Christ accomplished the latter.
This is what we are to strive to do as Christians. Yes, I can say the same.
It matters because in certain posts, it sounds like you are demanding that people be sinless and perfect or else! I am not trying to place sinless, perfect standards on myself or anyone else. I do not practice sin and I am not sinless 100% of the time either.
By me saying that I don't expect to live a sinless perfect life from this point on and can expect to stumble at times, I am siding with evil and condoning sin? I don't agree with that. Can you say with absolute confidence that you will NEVER stumble again in the future and live a sinless life from now on?
Does Peter really believe that Christians can reach a state of sinless perfection? The Bible teaches that none of us will reach a state of sinless perfection this side of eternity. John writes, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). James writes, “For we all stumble in many ways” (James. 3:2), referring to Christian believers. Paul speaks of the flesh and Spirit battling one another in the life of the Christian (Galatians 5:17), and he himself experienced this personal struggle with sin (Romans 7:17). For this reason, Peter cannot be teaching sinless perfection.
When Peter writes that a Christian has “ceased” from sin, this could refer to the way in which suffering can grow us spiritually. In this way, Peter isn’t speaking absolutely about sinless perfection; instead, he is referring to experientially as we grow with Christ. Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - Hath ceased from sin (pepautai amartia). Perfect middle indicative of pauw to make cease and the ablative singular amartia, but B reads the dative plural amartiai (Romans 6:1). Romans 6:1 - Shall we continue in sin? Present active deliberative subjunctive of epimenw, old verb to tarry with locative case. The practice of sin as a habit (present tense) is here raised, not sinless perfection. We see the same in 1 John 3:9.
"Have crucified the flesh" is in the aorist tense, suggesting an action that took place in the past. A parallel passage may be found in Romans 6:6 and 11, which state, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin...Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord". Victory over the flesh with its passions and lusts has already been provided for us by Christ through His death. We appropriate this truth through faith instead of sinless perfection.
Christians continue to confess/acknowledge their sin before God. It's not about sin, lose salvation, confess, regain salvation like a continuous revolving door and if we forget a sin, we are toast! When you say, "do you believe that? My guess would be a no" I can see that your purpose is to point the fingers at other Christians and say they are somehow missing the boat and surely will not be saved, but of course that's not the case with you. As you mentioned in a previous post, and I quote - "While I have not overcome all sin yet in my life, I believe one day soon with Christ that I will overcome. It could be today or tomorrow. However, I do not abide in unrepentant sin as a way of life and I seek to obey Him and do what is good and pleasing in His sight." So the implication is that YOU will overcome sin in your life soon and will surely be saved because of it (but the rest of us surely won't ever overcome all sin and will not be saved) and you do not abide in unrepentant sin as a way of life (but surely many other Christians do and will not be saved) and that you seek to obey Him and do what is good and pleasing in His sight and will surely be saved because of it (but many Christians do not seek to obey Him and do not do what is good and pleasing in His sight and surely won't be saved). You may not realize it but you sound self righteous.
Did you expect Jesus to say, "just go and sin a little bit?" He cannot compromise His perfect holy standard, so of course He is going to say, "go and sin no more," but does that mean we will never sin again at all and if we do then we are toast? NO. Sin not is the goal, what we strive for, but it does not mean we will live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives 100% of the time.
This is what we are to strive to do as Christians. Yes, I can say the same.
It matters because in certain posts, it sounds like you are demanding that people be sinless and perfect or else! I am not trying to place sinless, perfect standards on myself or anyone else. I do not practice sin and I am not sinless 100% of the time either.
By me saying that I don't expect to live a sinless perfect life from this point on and can expect to stumble at times, I am siding with evil and condoning sin? I don't agree with that. Can you say with absolute confidence that you will NEVER stumble again in the future and live a sinless life from now on?
Does Peter really believe that Christians can reach a state of sinless perfection? The Bible teaches that none of us will reach a state of sinless perfection this side of eternity. John writes, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). James writes, “For we all stumble in many ways” (James. 3:2), referring to Christian believers. Paul speaks of the flesh and Spirit battling one another in the life of the Christian (Galatians 5:17), and he himself experienced this personal struggle with sin (Romans 7:17). For this reason, Peter cannot be teaching sinless perfection.
When Peter writes that a Christian has “ceased” from sin, this could refer to the way in which suffering can grow us spiritually. In this way, Peter isn’t speaking absolutely about sinless perfection; instead, he is referring to experientially as we grow with Christ. Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - Hath ceased from sin (pepautai amartia). Perfect middle indicative of pauw to make cease and the ablative singular amartia, but B reads the dative plural amartiai (Romans 6:1). Romans 6:1 - Shall we continue in sin? Present active deliberative subjunctive of epimenw, old verb to tarry with locative case. The practice of sin as a habit (present tense) is here raised, not sinless perfection. We see the same in 1 John 3:9.
"Have crucified the flesh" is in the aorist tense, suggesting an action that took place in the past. A parallel passage may be found in Romans 6:6 and 11, which state, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin...Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord". Victory over the flesh with its passions and lusts has already been provided for us by Christ through His death. We appropriate this truth through faith instead of sinless perfection.
Christians continue to confess/acknowledge their sin before God. It's not about sin, lose salvation, confess, regain salvation like a continuous revolving door and if we forget a sin, we are toast! When you say, "do you believe that? My guess would be a no" I can see that your purpose is to point the fingers at other Christians and say they are somehow missing the boat and surely will not be saved, but of course that's not the case with you. As you mentioned in a previous post, and I quote - "While I have not overcome all sin yet in my life, I believe one day soon with Christ that I will overcome. It could be today or tomorrow. However, I do not abide in unrepentant sin as a way of life and I seek to obey Him and do what is good and pleasing in His sight." So the implication is that YOU will overcome sin in your life soon and will surely be saved because of it (but the rest of us surely won't ever overcome all sin and will not be saved) and you do not abide in unrepentant sin as a way of life (but surely many other Christians do and will not be saved) and that you seek to obey Him and do what is good and pleasing in His sight and will surely be saved because of it (but many Christians do not seek to obey Him and do not do what is good and pleasing in His sight and surely won't be saved). You may not realize it but you sound self righteous.
Did you expect Jesus to say, "just go and sin a little bit?" He cannot compromise His perfect holy standard, so of course He is going to say, "go and sin no more," but does that mean we will never sin again at all and if we do then we are toast? NO. Sin not is the goal, what we strive for, but it does not mean we will live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives 100% of the time.
what is truly sad is the fact that many look to condemn others in there walk, and find fault with how they believe, that's not what this is about, people who refuse to study the word (the whole word not just the NT) put themselves under bondage to false doctrine and mans opinions, then they seek to point a finger at others because they believe and live a way that seems strange to them, without even knowing why, (Prov. 18:13) our place as believers is to do as our Savior did, not doing what another man says we should do, the scripture clearly states "the spirit of truth will guide you into ALL truth" but how many even care to pray and study, to see if what their being taught is even according to the word? the sad part is there is too much time bickering over what is correct instead of just doing the work (Matt. 6:33) part of this work is to be always in submission to His will and deny the inclinations of the flesh that lead us away from the source of life and truth, we have one life one chance, and only he can guide us not ourselves and not each other, (yes we can assist and encourage) but it is He who leads, so the next time you encounter some "strange" belief rather then pointing out whats wrong with it, try praying for those who you think are on a wrong path, and don't worry about those who you think they may influence, our Fathers arm is not short that he cannot save, if He can draw me away from this dying world He can surely draw his children away from false doctrine, so next time you feel inclined to state how wrong anothers walk is try praying and asking for their deliverance instead of attacking their beliefs, this will never effect their freedom from it, prayer however will.
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
(Romans 6:17-18)
(Romans 6:17-18)
here's Paul talking about obedience in relation to freedom from sin.
yes, amen, we come to obey!
and oh! look - we have been set free from sin! this is past-tense and passive! it has happened, and it was not us that freed ourselves, but we were set free!
but the real salient point -- who is to be thanked for our obedience and freedom?
God is to be thanked for this!
not you! not me! God!
where is the joy, and where is the gratitude, if i am the one who makes myself holy?
who shall i thank if it's incumbent on me to set myself free from sin?
who is to be praised if my obedience is wholly and totally my own work and my own choice?
even though we are free from the slavery of sin, and we are slaves to righteousness ((not that we should make ourselves this - but that we have been made in this state now)) we still must be encouraged to put those things away from us. so is this freedom from sin tantamount to or dependent on our flesh being in a state of perfection?
J
Originally Posted by jonl
(to Jason)
I agree with what you’ve said in your posts. They took the shoes post and made you seem like a hard-hearted legalist. The permissiveness of the church since after wwII and especially after the vietnam war, abortion, and birth control – has probably led to accepting a lot of sexual perversion, drugs and the occult. Many LGBT’s are looking at christians (even the permissive ones) as bipolar.
hi W-T, That example of the $75 shoe give-away in public (that should have been done secretly (?)) seemed kind of strange. Not “mixed-up and disturbed,” but kind of a weird play-on-words.
Notice that he hasn’t replied to any of my posts, even though I’ve agreed with his basically conservative ideas. My wild conjecture is that he’s a Bircher-type who thinks condescendingly of people like me. You should probably be careful because the Glendale, Calif. Birchers (back around 1968) have targeted me as a kind of manchurian candidate (just after Sirhan and just before Manson).
Ironically, many of my ideas are from conservative Bakersfield, where I was raised and went to school. But I think that all peoples are human beings, except that in 1968, americans were relatively innocent of the occult. Now they seem to be catching up fast, as indicated by the LGBT and drug cultures (pot, meth, c- and h-).
That’s why american missionaries were sent to foreign countries to teach the gospel of salvation, to bring light into lands of darkness: (Luke 1:79)
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
I agree with what you’ve said in your posts. They took the shoes post and made you seem like a hard-hearted legalist. The permissiveness of the church since after wwII and especially after the vietnam war, abortion, and birth control – has probably led to accepting a lot of sexual perversion, drugs and the occult. Many LGBT’s are looking at christians (even the permissive ones) as bipolar.
hi W-T, That example of the $75 shoe give-away in public (that should have been done secretly (?)) seemed kind of strange. Not “mixed-up and disturbed,” but kind of a weird play-on-words.
Notice that he hasn’t replied to any of my posts, even though I’ve agreed with his basically conservative ideas. My wild conjecture is that he’s a Bircher-type who thinks condescendingly of people like me. You should probably be careful because the Glendale, Calif. Birchers (back around 1968) have targeted me as a kind of manchurian candidate (just after Sirhan and just before Manson).
Ironically, many of my ideas are from conservative Bakersfield, where I was raised and went to school. But I think that all peoples are human beings, except that in 1968, americans were relatively innocent of the occult. Now they seem to be catching up fast, as indicated by the LGBT and drug cultures (pot, meth, c- and h-).
That’s why american missionaries were sent to foreign countries to teach the gospel of salvation, to bring light into lands of darkness: (Luke 1:79)
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Originally Posted by jonl
(to Jason)
I agree with what you’ve said in your posts. They took the shoes post and made you seem like a hard-hearted legalist. The permissiveness of the church since after wwII and especially after the vietnam war, abortion, and birth control – has probably led to accepting a lot of sexual perversion, drugs and the occult. Many LGBT’s are looking at christians (even the permissive ones) as bipolar.
hi W-T, That example of the $75 shoe give-away in public (that should have been done secretly (?)) seemed kind of strange. Not “mixed-up and disturbed,” but kind of a weird play-on-words.
Notice that he hasn’t replied to any of my posts, even though I’ve agreed with his basically conservative ideas. My wild conjecture is that he’s a Bircher-type who thinks condescendingly of people like me. You should probably be careful because the Glendale, Calif. Birchers (back around 1968) have targeted me as a kind of manchurian candidate (just after Sirhan and just before Manson).
Ironically, many of my ideas are from conservative Bakersfield, where I was raised and went to school. But I think that all peoples are human beings, except that in 1968, americans were relatively innocent of the occult. Now they seem to be catching up fast, as indicated by the LGBT and drug cultures (pot, meth, c- and h-).
That’s why american missionaries were sent to foreign countries to teach the gospel of salvation, to bring light into lands of darkness: (Luke 1:79)
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
I agree with what you’ve said in your posts. They took the shoes post and made you seem like a hard-hearted legalist. The permissiveness of the church since after wwII and especially after the vietnam war, abortion, and birth control – has probably led to accepting a lot of sexual perversion, drugs and the occult. Many LGBT’s are looking at christians (even the permissive ones) as bipolar.
hi W-T, That example of the $75 shoe give-away in public (that should have been done secretly (?)) seemed kind of strange. Not “mixed-up and disturbed,” but kind of a weird play-on-words.
Notice that he hasn’t replied to any of my posts, even though I’ve agreed with his basically conservative ideas. My wild conjecture is that he’s a Bircher-type who thinks condescendingly of people like me. You should probably be careful because the Glendale, Calif. Birchers (back around 1968) have targeted me as a kind of manchurian candidate (just after Sirhan and just before Manson).
Ironically, many of my ideas are from conservative Bakersfield, where I was raised and went to school. But I think that all peoples are human beings, except that in 1968, americans were relatively innocent of the occult. Now they seem to be catching up fast, as indicated by the LGBT and drug cultures (pot, meth, c- and h-).
That’s why american missionaries were sent to foreign countries to teach the gospel of salvation, to bring light into lands of darkness: (Luke 1:79)
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
2, 3, 4.......... "Ok."
lol @ this whole debacle.
whacha gonna do, say "um, meet me behind the dumpsters in 2 hrs and i'll do a good deed but don't tell anyone"
Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to act.
Do not say to your neighbor, "Come back tomorrow and I'll give it to you" -
- when you already have it with you.
(Proverbs 3:27-28)
Do not say to your neighbor, "Come back tomorrow and I'll give it to you" -
- when you already have it with you.
(Proverbs 3:27-28)
Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say,
‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’
And suppose the one inside answers,
‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’
(Luke 11:5-7)
‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’
And suppose the one inside answers,
‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’
(Luke 11:5-7)
The primary command is to love; Which fulfills even the Old moral that has been carried over into the New Testament (See Romans 13). However, to whom much is given, much is required. However, the teachings of Jesus in the gospels were primarily New Testament and not Old Testament. This is important to understand because Paul says if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Are you saying we can disobey the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness?
Also, what is your answer as to WHO Jesus was talking to in Matthew 6:15?
Was Jesus talking to the believer or the unbeliever?
Also, what is your answer as to WHO Jesus was talking to in Matthew 6:15?
Was Jesus talking to the believer or the unbeliever?