The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[eternally-gratefull]

It is because they have been told by those who have instructed them that any thing that speaks on future receiving of something is only speaking of rewards. But the scriptures I showed previously in #426 clearly say salvation and eternal life, not rewards, and shows that Paul puts salvation/eternal life as the ending result of keeping the faith.

Same as what Apostle Peter showed in 1 Peter 1:4-9............

Yet you are trying to earn salvation.

where Paul said that salvation was the end of our faith.

Again, the blind leading the blind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sitting here thinking of the Apostle Paul being imprisoned and beaten up so badly, often within an inch of his life. Nevertheless, no matter what prison he was in, the Gospel of Jesus Christ was furthered and the Kingdom of God grew rapidly, the Word says.

Now, can you imagine Paul preaching the fire & brimstone stuff that gets posted in these forums? Can you even imagine Paul telling the guard who was beating him, "You are going to hell! You better repent! You better follow the law!" And then proceed to recite pages of Scripture? That guard would have killed Paul in a heartbeat!

No, but Paul joyfully told the guard about Jesus Christ and how his eyes were made open to the Lord Himself. Paul talked about Jesus and the guard was stunned that Paul would offer him such life and hope after he had harmed Paul so badly. Paul showed the guard the love of God and said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, and your whole family."

Paul exhibited the love of Jesus Christ to the guard and preached Jesus Christ crucified. That was it. Jesus Christ is effective enough to make men new.

Amen.

How can paul consider all the crap he went through a MOMENTARY LIGHT AFFLICTION.

it is simple. he stated it over and over

His home was not of this world (he awaited a better home being built by His savior)

His body was not the body which now suffers (he is awaiting a glorious body)

He wished he could die, for to be absent from the body was to be present from the world.

His focus was eternity. How could be preach we are to look forward. if eternal life was not secure, If it was not real. if it could be lost. He would have to live for the day, and making sure he stayed saved, he could not focus on the eternal future, yet this is what he taught.

 

[VioletReigns]

Isn't it obvious how those who are coming down hard on folks about following the law do not exhibit the graciousness, the kindness and the love of Jesus Christ? They can't even fake sincerity. All you hear from them is, "I know the scriptures, I know the law and you people are contrary to that law!"

You never hear the sweetness and the mercy and the grace and the miraculous love of God in their words. It is all condemnation and burdening folks and boasting of their obedience. Doesn't that sound exactly like Saul of Tarsus before Jesus opened his eyes?

 

[Jason0047]

here's something about the "final stage of our salvation"

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
(Romans 8:23-25)
​

hmm, says here we were saved - saved in hope of the redemption of our bodies, and that is what we patiently wait for.
doesn't say that we are not saved until our bodies are redeemed and free of all sin & unholy lust.
says salvation is a past-tense thing we passively received, the Spirit a present-tense thing we also received, and the "perfection" of our bodies a future hope we passively await.

so what do we all think that means about this idea of present-time sinless perfectionism, or redemption of our flesh as pre-requisite to our hope?

who hopes for what they already have? ​

What exactly are we hoping for in Romans 8? What we cannot see. What is that we cannot see? The future redemption of our body. I would also include the fact that we would also hope (By sight unseen) in seeing Jesus, too.

Also, salvation is in three stages.

1. Justification
(Initial Salvation - Admitting your a sinner and accepting Christ as your Savior).

2. Sanctification
(Continued Salvation - Allowing Christ's righteousness to flow thru your life; If you sin, you must confess and forsake it).

3. Glorification
(Final Salvation - This is when the Lord takes you home; This would also include the bodily resurrection, too).​

In addition, a saint can have an assurance of their salvation of eternal life (1 John 5:13). How can we have life? By knowing Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). How do we know for sure if we know Him?

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).

 

[weakness]

Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? There for we are buried with him in baptism into death,.....even so we should walk in the newness of life....For he that is dead is free from sin. Now if we believe that we are dead with Christ , we should also live with him. Like wise reckon yourselves dead unto sin , but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our lord. Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but yield yourselves, but yield yourselves unto God as those that are alive from the dead. And if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Jason0047]

Isn't it obvious how those who are coming down hard on folks about following the law do not exhibit the graciousness, the kindness and the love of Jesus Christ? They can't even fake sincerity. All you hear from them is, "I know the scriptures, I know the law and you people are contrary to that law!"

You never hear the sweetness and the mercy and the grace and the miraculous love of God in their words. It is all condemnation and burdening folks and boasting of their obedience. Doesn't that sound exactly like Saul of Tarsus before Jesus opened his eyes?

Actually in my experience over the many years with talking with OSAS proponents. I have found that OSAS Proponents are more hateful with their words (When having these kinds of debates) and in many cases (not all) of them, they do not even discuss the Word of God (so as to really debate the issue). Points in Scripture just go ignored. So it just becomes about the OSAS proponent personally attack the one who believes God's Word simply and plainly. So no. I don't see what you are talking about at all. Actually, the reverse is true. I have only encountered one person who was Anti-OSAS who was really nasty. Then again, they didn't believe Trinity, though (Among other things).

 

[gb9]

What exactly are we hoping for in Romans 8? What we cannot see. What is that we cannot see? The future redemption of our body. I would also include the fact that we would also hope (By sight unseen) in seeing Jesus, too.

Also, salvation is in three stages.

1. Justification
(Initial Salvation - Admitting your a sinner and accepting Christ as your Savior).

2. Sanctification
(Continued Salvation - Allowing Christ's righteousness to flow thru your life; If you sin, you must confess and forsake it).

3. Glorification
(Final Salvation - This is when the Lord takes you home; This would also include the bodily resurrection, too).​

In addition, a saint can have an assurance of their salvation of eternal life (1 John 5:13). How can we have life? By knowing Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). How do we know for sure if we know Him?

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).

this is good. just stay within these areas, don't go judging everything and everyone. just stay in this mindset.

 

[gb9]

this is good. just stay within these areas, don't go judging everything and everyone. just stay in this mindset.

oops. too late. back to being him.

 

[Jason0047]

oops. too late. back to being him.

Well, I am not lying. It is true. I have been attacked personally for standing behind God's Word when discusing the topic of OSAS many, many times. In fact, if you do not believe me, you can just look at other threads on this topic on other Christian forums and you will see the same thing. Folks who stand up for God's Word are attacked. But Jesus said this would happen though.

 

[Jason0047]

I take Paul most seriously

Carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ gal6:2

The only way you can have a righteousness apart from law is if Jesus died for all your sins past, present and future.
Those who love God with all their heart will rejoice in that, and could not use such knowledge as a licence to sin
Whereas those stuck in the letter will not see I sadly

The BIble does not say that you are forgiven of future sin that you have not repented of. It doesn't teach that. It's why you have to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

 

[jonl]

It is because they have been told by those who have instructed them that any thing that speaks on future receiving of something is only speaking of rewards. But the scriptures I showed previously in #426 clearly say salvation and eternal life, not rewards, and shows that Paul puts salvation/eternal life as the ending result of keeping the faith.

Same as what Apostle Peter showed in 1 Peter 1:4-9............

The apostle Peter spoke of apostasy in the church: (II Peter 2:20-22)

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

What so many false grace christians are saying is similar to what the serpent said to Eve, “you will surely not die” and what the false prophets said to Israel, “Peace, peace” when there was no peace. (Jeremiah 6:13-15)

For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. [false healing]
[SUP]15[/SUP]Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

The atonement sacrifice was to redeem all peoples from the curse of sin (which is spiritual death), but reverting back to sin willfully (after accepting the redemption and being cleansed from sin) is like Peter said, “the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

 

[senzi]

The BIble does not say that you are forgiven of future sin that you have not repented of. It doesn't teach that. It's why you have to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

The bible states the christian has a righteousness before God apart from observing the law

Sin is transgression of the law
Therefore Jesus died at Calvary for all your sin, past, present and future

 

[ember]

Well, I am not lying. It is true. I have been attacked personally for standing behind God's Word when discusing the topic of OSAS many, many times. In fact, if you do not believe me, you can just look at other threads on this topic on other Christian forums and you will see the same thing. Folks who stand up for God's Word are attacked. But Jesus said this would happen though.

Interesting

Any questionning of your unbiblical doctrine is an attack and you are VERY quick to whine about it.

Does whining about a supposed attack count as rejoicing for suffering?

You know, I don't think it does.

Honestly, I do not see other people in these forums who have their posts questionned whining the way that you do.

I guess it's all in the character of a person as to whether or not they will whine when, if they believed what scripture states, they would rejoice even if it is only a perceived attack.

I have been accused by you of attacking you...just recently in fact. When the truth was, that you spoke an untruth and accused me of mocking salvation...for which you later ... kind of...apologized...but then ruined it by making excuses.

 

[VioletReigns]

If it looks like Jesus, sounds like Jesus, acts like Jesus, it IS Jesus working His will through someone.

If it looks like religious pride, sounds like religious pride, acts like religious pride, it IS religious pride working through someone's own stubborn will.

 

[phil112]

.......................Therefore Jesus died at Calvary for all your sin, past, present and future

A true believer has no present sin, nor do they anticipate getting any. Why do you sin now, and why are you looking forward to the next time you do, if you ever quit that is.
That certainly isn't bible.

 

[senzi]

A true believer has no present sin, nor do they anticipate getting any. Why do you sin now, and why are you looking forward to the next time you do, if you ever quit that is.
That certainly isn't bible.

Do you perfectly obey the whole law of God he desires you to keep? If you are not perfect in the flesh you commit sin
Please show me my post where I stayed I was looking forward to the next time I sin.

I am afraid there is no way round it. If you have a righteousness apart from the law jesus died for all your sin past, present and future
It is only when you believe that, that you can truly begin to live as God desires you to.

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom 6:14
That is biblical truth

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Isn't it obvious how those who are coming down hard on folks about following the law do not exhibit the graciousness, the kindness and the love of Jesus Christ? They can't even fake sincerity. All you hear from them is, "I know the scriptures, I know the law and you people are contrary to that law!"

You never hear the sweetness and the mercy and the grace and the miraculous love of God in their words. It is all condemnation and burdening folks and boasting of their obedience. Doesn't that sound exactly like Saul of Tarsus before Jesus opened his eyes?

Yep. and he commited murder. and thought it was for god. and Go would praise him for his great work.

Saul was the blind leading the blind, Paul was the blind given sight, to heal other blind people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A true believer has no present sin, nor do they anticipate getting any. Why do you sin now, and why are you looking forward to the next time you do, if you ever quit that is.
That certainly isn't bible.

nah, that would not be a true believer, fo how can a baby christian think he will never mess up again, How can a teenager think he will be perfect. How can adult. who has seen how impossible it is to be perfect 24/7 think he is perfect.

 

[Willie-T]

You are off the mark my friend as that is not at all what Jesus was saying.

Lord Jesus clearly said they did not keep the whole law, and by going out of their way so that they knowingly would not pass by any poor is not keeping the law. Maybe in their mind it was, but not by the true word of God !!!

Of COURSE that is not keeping God's law. But, they had eventually learned to do what so many of us do today... JUSTIFY our actions so that we may even reach the point that we actually BELIEVE we are doing what God wants.

 

[Jason0047]

The bible states the christian has a righteousness before God apart from observing the law

Sin is transgression of the law
Therefore Jesus died at Calvary for all your sin, past, present and future

First, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by using real world examples (i.e. parables). You would think as important as OSAS supposedly is, that one could make a parable or real world example out of it. Out of my many years of debating the OSAS issue, I have put forth this challenge and none were able to actually make a real world example out of OSAS. Also, every time I ask for an explanation on many straight forward passages that warn that the believer can fall away or that there are Conditional Promises to the believer, one will look to either their own private interpretation in the Greek, or they are silent, or they come up with some crazy hair brained idea that does not actually fit the surrounding words for that verse.

Second, you will find no verse in the Bible stating that future sin is forgiven. Nor will you find any verse that ignores that we no longer have free will after having accepted Christ.

Third, morality is ignored with OSAS or it is either dodged in a very clever way. Some will admit that there is no morality with OSAS. Others will cower and hide at such a debate and will not really know what to say or others will come out and try and say I am attacking them personally (When in reality I am attacking the belief that is wrong and not the person). So these types of debates become an attack upon me personally rather than it being discussed Biblically. Now, if the truth was on your side, does it sound like that would happen?