Refute Against OSAS

[Utah]

believing in the Lord is a continuous action of placing your full trust in Jesus, which also means you trust to follow His teachings as well. Lord Jesus made this clear when He said those who love Him keep His teachings/commands and those who do not love Him do not.

So in actuality the moment we believe in Jesus is the moment we should commit suicide so we don't outlive our eternal salvation.

 

[Magenta]

"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me. I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

 

[valiant]

I think you need to do some research on this, and I gave you a link to help you along as Augustine started the eternal security doctrine in the 4th century. In his doctrine he said that falling away and apostasy was both impossible, even though the word of God teaches on both areas do and will happen.

Neither one of them taught lose of salvation as both of them said that it is impossible to fall away !!!

Rubbish. Jesus Christ started the eternal security doctrine in 1st century AD (John 6.37-44; 10.27-28), followed closely by Paul (Rom 8.29-39; 1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6; 2 Tim 1.16; etc.)

 

[KennethC]

So in actuality the moment we believe in Jesus is the moment we should commit suicide so we don't outlive our eternal salvation.

What kind of statement is that ???

What you say here has absolutely nothing to do with what the Lord said and showed believing in Him will be like, as He constantly gave parables on what the kingdom of heaven is like, and what believers in Him will look like compared to unbelievers and the disobedient.

Each time Jesus gave these parables the common context is in each one of them, and that is the "doing" part of keeping His teachings and commands to obey them out of love. Even Apostle Paul expounds on the doing part as he shows that there is not condemnation for those who walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh, but people want to try and leave this off of the instructions from the bible because they say that was added on to verse 1 in Romans 8. That is true it was but Paul repeats this 3 more times in that same chapter, and in Galatians as well.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by KennethC

believing in the Lord is a continuous action of placing your full trust in Jesus, which also means you trust to follow His teachings as well. Lord Jesus made this clear when He said those who love Him keep His teachings/commands and those who do not love Him do not.

A clear teaching of salvation by works which is contrary to the Gospel. Rom 3.24-29; Eph 2.8-9; Tit 3.4-7; etc,

 

[p_rehbein]

John 3:16 is an example where "believe/believing/believeth" is a continuous/unending action. Goodness........look it up. Why would that even be up for debate?

 

[KennethC]

Rubbish. Jesus Christ started the eternal security doctrine in 1st century AD (John 6.37-44; 10.27-28), followed closely by Paul (Rom 8.29-39; 1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6; 2 Tim 1.16; etc.)

There you go trying to pull passages out and making them stand on their own, and ignoring the other part of Jesus and Paul's teachings. Notice how in the scripture you provided it speaks of those who come to the Lord and follow His teachings, not just come to Him and do nothing !!!

 

[valiant]

John 3:16 is an example where "believe/believing/believeth" is a continuous/unending action. Goodness........look it up. Why would that even be up for debate?

since when has a present participle necessarily been 'a continuing, unending action' ? It simply indicates an action that someone might choose to take. It is not our faith which saves us. It is Christ Who saves us.

 

[KennethC]

A clear teaching of salvation by works which is contrary to the Gospel. Rom 3.24-29; Eph 2.8-9; Tit 3.4-7; etc,

Way to try and twist what a person says !!!

I have said and shown that salvation is by faith in the Lord, and the bible clearly shows that faith is a continuous active faith.


It has nothing to do with the works themselves obtaining or keeping salvation, but is a showing of the difference between a true faith and a false profession of faith. Even Jesus said the fruits would be evident in true believers, and not in those whose faith is not founded on Him.

For if you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will follow and keep His teachings/commands and they will not be burdensome to you !!!

 

[KennethC]

since when has a present participle necessarily been 'a continuing, unending action' ? It simply indicates an action that someone might choose to take. It is not our faith which saves us. It is Christ Who saves us.

4100. pisteuó

​

pisteuó: to believe, entrust​

​

​

Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ),to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40; followed by ὅτι, Matthew 9:28; Mark 11:23; (Hebrews 11:6); τῷ λόγῳ, ᾧ (ὅν) εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, John 4:50. β. ofthe credence given to God's messengers and their words, with a dative of the person or thing: Μωϋσεῖ John 5:46. to the prophets, John 12:38; Acts 24:14; Acts 26:27; Romans 10:16;

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Rubbish. Jesus Christ started the eternal security doctrine in 1st century AD (John 6.37-44; 10.27-28), followed closely by Paul (Rom 8.29-39; 1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6; 2 Tim 1.16; etc.)

There you go trying to pull passages out and making them stand on their own, and ignoring the other part of Jesus and Paul's teachings. Notice how in the scripture you provided it speaks of those who come to the Lord and follow His teachings, not just come to Him and do nothing !!!

I do not ignore other Scripture. I am well aware of all the Scriptures you cite. But they are simply urgings and encouragements along the way. They are not pointing to the means of eternal salvation. There is only one means of eternal salvation and that is a commitment of myself to Jesus Christ to be My Saviour. And once that commitment is made it is Christ's solemn promise that He will fulfil His part to the end. Thus I am eternally secure.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to come to Christ without being transformed. This will naturally RESULT in following Christ's teachings. But it is not that which saves me. It is the unfailing Christ my Saviour Who saves me. And it is He Who is my eternal guarantor. I do not have to hang on to His coat tails. I am safe within His arms.

You only have half a salvation. Indeed you can never be sure you are saved, because you can never be sure you are good enough.

 

[valiant]

4100. pisteuó

​

pisteuó: to believe, entrust​

Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ),to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40; followed by ὅτι, Matthew 9:28; Mark 11:23; (Hebrews 11:6); τῷ λόγῳ, ᾧ (ὅν) εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, John 4:50. β. ofthe credence given to God's messengers and their words, with a dative of the person or thing: Μωϋσεῖ John 5:46. to the prophets, John 12:38; Acts 24:14; Acts 26:27; Romans 10:16;

But John 3.16 is not an indicative tense it is a present participle. But then I guess you don't understand Greek. You just cite irrelevant parts of lexicons picking out bits you think might support you LOL LOL Go and spend four years learning Greek properly. then we can talk LOL

 

[p_rehbein]

So, I guess I'm suppose to "believe" that I can say to Jesus:

"Hey, Jesus, You know that a long time ago, I believed in You, put my faith and trust in You, and accepted You as Lord and Savior, but, shoot, last week I prayed for something and You didn't give it to me. So, I have to tell You, I don't believe in You any more. Faith and trust? Nah, they're gone too."

----------and Jesus will say ---------

"That's ok p.............ONE TIME you believed in Me, so your good, no worries!"

Seriously...............????

 

[valiant]

So, I guess I'm suppose to "believe" that I can say to Jesus:

"Hey, Jesus, You know that a long time ago, I believed in You, put my faith and trust in You, and accepted You as Lord and Savior, but, shoot, last week I prayed for something and You didn't give it to me. So, I have to tell You, I don't believe in You any more. Faith and trust? Nah, they're gone too."

----------and Jesus will say ---------

"That's ok p.............ONE TIME you believed in Me, so your good, no worries!"

Seriously...............????

Do I really have to comment on such an absurdity? If that's how you think you certainly are not saved !!

 

[p_rehbein]

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[TD="class: comment-text"]Good question. Looking at a variety of English Bible versions, I see, among others: "everyone trusting in him"; "whoever has faith in him"; "whoever believes in him"; "everyone believing into him," and "who is believing in him". Each of the alternate English renderings of the Greek phrase ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν (which I translate as "that all the believers in and with him") read to me as though they're conditional upon both present and continuing belief in the teachings and abilities of "Jesus, who is called Christ" (Matt. 1:16). Otherwise, what's the point? – Pat Ferguson Jul 19 '13 at 23:37


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[p_rehbein]

Do I really have to comment on such an absurdity? If that's how you think you certainly are not saved !!

It is SURELY NOT how I think, but IT IS what others are trying to sell here..............and I ain't buying it.

But I don't expect any of you to comment on it, because it flies directly in the face of a "one time belief" of OSAS.

Way I see it.................Free will ENDS where OSAS begins.............pretty much a "latter day Calvinist" ideology in my opinion.

 

[Mitspa]

Free will describes disobedience to God...not obedience!
Obedience is found when we SURRENDER our will to the Cross of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God at work in us to "will" and "act" according to Gods good pleasure.

 

[JesusLives]

Free will describes disobedience to God...not obedience!
Obedience is found when we SURRENDER our will to the Cross of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God at work in us to "will" and "act" according to Gods good pleasure.

Free will is still choosing obedience......rather than disobedience......

We can be good or bad last time Blond checked....It is our choice...

 

[Mitspa]

Free will is still choosing obedience......rather than disobedience......

We can be good or bad last time Blond checked....It is our choice...

No! that is surrendered to Gods will...not "free" will ...free will is you doing what you want to do....

 

[KennethC]

But John 3.16 is not an indicative tense it is a present participle. But then I guess you don't understand Greek. You just cite irrelevant parts of lexicons picking out bits you think might support you LOL LOL Go and spend four years learning Greek properly. then we can talk LOL

I am not leaving any parts out, and here you go if you want the Greek usage for that particular passage;

John 3:15-16 in γ. below)). γ. used especially of the faith by which a man embraces Jesus, i. e. "a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messiah — the divinely appointed author of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, conjoined with obedience to Christ": πιστεύω τόν υἱόν τοῦ Θεοῦ εἶναι Ἰησοῦν