The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists
- Thread starter Budman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K
I do not reverse the order as I have seen many on here do, as they put salvation/eternal life before any of this such as repentance and baptism is done. Those are the people I am trying to show the truth from the bible as they believe repentance and baptism is the result and not what leads by faith to salvation.
Then you fall to the same teaching by man that the second half of Mark 16:16 omits baptism, but it doesn't if you take all the words of the Lord into account. For the Lord Jesus said in such passages as Luke 6:46-49 that those who "believe" in Him will do what He said, and He commanded baptism to be done no less then 4 times: Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, and Matthew 3:15
Where do you get that from about Acts 2:38 that remission on refers back to the first condition and not the second, when Peter is clearly saying you have to do both to receive that remission and be born again by receiving the Holy Spirit? Apostle Peter continues on in Acts and even in his epistles showing that water is still part to be done by the believer.
Acts 3:19 does not omit baptism as the conversion part is the baptism, as when you go back to what the Lord said in Matthew 28:19 it shows by baptism is how we are shown to be converted to be His disciples. We can not go and cancel things out just because the exact word is not mentioned, which is why we are told to live by all the words that proceed from God.
Acts 10:43 is not the standard on what comes first the Holy Spirit or baptism, as that passage was the Lord showing the Jews who were contentious about Gentiles having the right to salvation that we do have that right as well. Lord Jesus gave those Gentile believers the Holy Spirit first to squash and put an end to the debate, but if you then keep reading in Acts 10:47-48 Peter commanded them to finish the process by being baptized and nobody could forbid it to be done.
Acts 11:17, 15:8, is just a continuation of the debate that went on from chapter 10.
The Lord Jesus Christ commanded baptism (H20) and said it must be done to fulfill all righteousness, and also said unless you are born again of water and Spirit you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. If you go back and compare it to how the sanctification process has always be done by God from the OT forward you will see that water and blood both were always used. I am Non-Denomination but have attended both Baptist and Catholic churches in the past, and they both stuck to water baptism to be done by believers.
1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
Cloud (Spirit) - Sea (Water)
While there are many commands that we have to obey, baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (sin) (1 Peter 3:21). Salvation or baptismal regeneration is unbiblical. There are just too many verses that refute it. Baptism is done because you are declaring you have an already good conscience before God.
V
Today's Devotional from Oswald Chamber's "My Utmost for His Highest"
The Doorway to the Kingdom
Blessed are the poor in spirit… —Matthew 5:3
Beware of thinking of our Lord as only a teacher. If Jesus Christ is only a teacher, then all He can do is frustrate me by setting a standard before me I cannot attain. What is the point of presenting me with such a lofty ideal if I cannot possibly come close to reaching it? I would be happier if I never knew it. What good is there in telling me to be what I can never be— to be “pure in heart” (Matthew 5:8), to do more than my duty, or to be completely devoted to God? I must know Jesus Christ as my Savior before His teaching has any meaning for me other than that of a lofty ideal, which only leads to despair.
But when I am born again by the Spirit of God, I know that Jesus Christ did not come only to teach— He came to make me what He teaches I should be. The redemption means that Jesus Christ can place within anyone the same nature that ruled His own life, and all the standards God gives us are based on that nature.
The teaching of the Sermon on the Mount produces a sense of despair in the natural man— exactly what Jesus means for it to do. As long as we have some self-righteous idea that we can carry out our Lord’s teaching, God will allow us to continue until we expose our own ignorance by stumbling over some obstacle in our way. Only then are we willing to come to Him as paupers and receive from Him.
“Blessed are the poor in spirit….” This is the first principle in the kingdom of God. The underlying foundation of Jesus Christ’s kingdom is poverty, not possessions; not making decisions for Jesus, but having such a sense of absolute futility that we finally admit, “Lord, I cannot even begin to do it.” Then Jesus says, “Blessed are you…” (Matthew 5:11). This is the doorway to the kingdom, and yet it takes us so long to believe that we are actually poor! The knowledge of our own poverty is what brings us to the proper place where Jesus Christ accomplishes His work.
The Doorway to the Kingdom
Blessed are the poor in spirit… —Matthew 5:3
Beware of thinking of our Lord as only a teacher. If Jesus Christ is only a teacher, then all He can do is frustrate me by setting a standard before me I cannot attain. What is the point of presenting me with such a lofty ideal if I cannot possibly come close to reaching it? I would be happier if I never knew it. What good is there in telling me to be what I can never be— to be “pure in heart” (Matthew 5:8), to do more than my duty, or to be completely devoted to God? I must know Jesus Christ as my Savior before His teaching has any meaning for me other than that of a lofty ideal, which only leads to despair.
But when I am born again by the Spirit of God, I know that Jesus Christ did not come only to teach— He came to make me what He teaches I should be. The redemption means that Jesus Christ can place within anyone the same nature that ruled His own life, and all the standards God gives us are based on that nature.
The teaching of the Sermon on the Mount produces a sense of despair in the natural man— exactly what Jesus means for it to do. As long as we have some self-righteous idea that we can carry out our Lord’s teaching, God will allow us to continue until we expose our own ignorance by stumbling over some obstacle in our way. Only then are we willing to come to Him as paupers and receive from Him.
“Blessed are the poor in spirit….” This is the first principle in the kingdom of God. The underlying foundation of Jesus Christ’s kingdom is poverty, not possessions; not making decisions for Jesus, but having such a sense of absolute futility that we finally admit, “Lord, I cannot even begin to do it.” Then Jesus says, “Blessed are you…” (Matthew 5:11). This is the doorway to the kingdom, and yet it takes us so long to believe that we are actually poor! The knowledge of our own poverty is what brings us to the proper place where Jesus Christ accomplishes His work.
K
Well then we have an issue then because if you are going to tell people they can deny to follow one of the Lord's commands, then how many more of those commands are you going to tell others they don't have to do ???
You are walking a slippery slope of a teaching of disobedience, so if baptism is not needed then one of three things would not have happened;
1) Lord would not have commanded it
2) The Apostles/disciples would not have continue to carry it out as a command
3) Jesus and Peter both would not have said it is part of the salvation process, which they both did
K
The bible makes it clear that born again believers will not have to worry about that, because that is one of the reasons the Holy Spirit was sent to us. To guide us in all truth and keep us walking properly in the faith, which is why the bible expresses love so much.
Because walking in love will fulfill all other teachings and commands given by the Lord.
We do still stumble at times but by repenting of that/those sins and keeping the fellowship with the Lord shows you are still properly walking by the faith. People need to get around the concept of walking properly by the faith does not mean we will never stumble, it means we will repent/confess and continue to walk in God's ways.
The bible also says that His commands for born again believers will not be burdensome, because by the Spirit they will be easily accomplished through love.
Because walking in love will fulfill all other teachings and commands given by the Lord.
We do still stumble at times but by repenting of that/those sins and keeping the fellowship with the Lord shows you are still properly walking by the faith. People need to get around the concept of walking properly by the faith does not mean we will never stumble, it means we will repent/confess and continue to walk in God's ways.
The bible also says that His commands for born again believers will not be burdensome, because by the Spirit they will be easily accomplished through love.
K
Once again you are leaving off the last part of that parable;
"7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."
The sheep still had to repent to be welcomed back into the fold, they were not just welcomed back and allowed to continue to be sinful. They had to turn from those ways and return to the Lord, if they do not repent they remained lost with no salvation!!!
P
Colossians 3:5-8 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth."
Did you really get saved? Did you mortify, kill, the sin in your members?
If so, why would you go back and pick them up again?
Did you "also put off all these"? If you didn't you're not saved. If you did, why are you bringing them back?
God's spirit cleansed you of them, are you saying His spirit doesn't have the power to keep them gone? Or is it that you are simply allowing your flesh to seduce you, caving in to your lusts because you didn't get on your knees?
You know what the bible also says about things like that? That you are like a dog returning to its' vomit. Do you know how disgusting that must be to God for Him to make that comparison? Why doesn't it disgust you enough accept His help and let His spirit guide you away from those things?
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth."
Did you really get saved? Did you mortify, kill, the sin in your members?
If so, why would you go back and pick them up again?
Did you "also put off all these"? If you didn't you're not saved. If you did, why are you bringing them back?
God's spirit cleansed you of them, are you saying His spirit doesn't have the power to keep them gone? Or is it that you are simply allowing your flesh to seduce you, caving in to your lusts because you didn't get on your knees?
You know what the bible also says about things like that? That you are like a dog returning to its' vomit. Do you know how disgusting that must be to God for Him to make that comparison? Why doesn't it disgust you enough accept His help and let His spirit guide you away from those things?
Well, I was baptized but I did not do it for salvation. I was saved long before I was baptized. Also, there are New Testament Commands given to us that don't always have major spiritual life and death consequences attached if we do not obey them. For example: In Matthew 5:12, Jesus says rejoice when you are persecuted. In other words, He is telling us what to do. It is a Command. But is there a consequence listed in Scripture if we do not rejoice when persecuted? No. In Matthew 7:7, Jesus says, ask and it shall be given unto you. Do we fall out of fellowship with God if we do not ask (as He tells us)? Paul says, pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17); And Paul says that what he had written to us should be regarded as the LORD's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). What happens if you fail to pray without ceasing?
How do we know baptism does not save? Paul said he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). Surely if baptism was a salvation issue, then Paul would never say this. Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the flesh (1 Peter 3:21). We know the phrase "putting away of the flesh" is in reference to "sin." For Paul mentions how we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh (2 Corinthians 7:1). Both Paul and Peter were not talking about taking a bath. In Acts 10:44-48 we learn that one can receive the Holy Spirit before one is baptized. This is important to understand because the Spirit indwells those who are saved.
How do we know baptism does not save? Paul said he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). Surely if baptism was a salvation issue, then Paul would never say this. Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the flesh (1 Peter 3:21). We know the phrase "putting away of the flesh" is in reference to "sin." For Paul mentions how we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh (2 Corinthians 7:1). Both Paul and Peter were not talking about taking a bath. In Acts 10:44-48 we learn that one can receive the Holy Spirit before one is baptized. This is important to understand because the Spirit indwells those who are saved.
V
Honestly, I wonder what some Bible-thumping folks would do if they would find themselves in a place where they can't get to their study Bible, can't get to an internet site or can't reach their cell phone.
How in blue blazes would they even hear the Voice of the Living God without their giant-print-expositor's-leather-bound-study-Bible-with-concordance-and-color-maps?
Really, it sounds like pharisaical court proceedings in this place! All you hear is religious legalese. Long drawn out legal readings of judgment and accusations and condemnation. Holy cats! YOU HONESTLYBELIEVE THIS IS WHAT JESUS SUFFERED AND DIED FOR????????? So we could sit around spouting cold scriptures at one another with no life in our hearts and no joy and mercy and compassion and understanding for one another???
Oooooooooooooooooh my............... Where is the Light of Life in here? Where is the Life that draws men to God? Where is the love of Jesus Christ that beckons the lost to come to the Cross? Where is the grace and sweetness of the Spirit of the Living Lord? Aren't you people tired yet of standing up on your soap box and blowing smoke and dust all over?
I'm sure tired of it. Come down already and spend reality time with Jesus.
How in blue blazes would they even hear the Voice of the Living God without their giant-print-expositor's-leather-bound-study-Bible-with-concordance-and-color-maps?
Really, it sounds like pharisaical court proceedings in this place! All you hear is religious legalese. Long drawn out legal readings of judgment and accusations and condemnation. Holy cats! YOU HONESTLYBELIEVE THIS IS WHAT JESUS SUFFERED AND DIED FOR????????? So we could sit around spouting cold scriptures at one another with no life in our hearts and no joy and mercy and compassion and understanding for one another???
Oooooooooooooooooh my...............
Where is the Light of Life in here? Where is the Life that draws men to God? Where is the love of Jesus Christ that beckons the lost to come to the Cross? Where is the grace and sweetness of the Spirit of the Living Lord? Aren't you people tired yet of standing up on your soap box and blowing smoke and dust all over? I'm sure tired of it. Come down already and spend reality time with Jesus.
K
Well first of all yes there are consequences and other sides to those commands you just mentioned.
For one if you do not rejoice in being persecuted, but instead faulter do to being persecuted and deny and turn away from the Lord to not face the persecution any more. You have just denied the Lord and will face consequences for doing so.
Second yes there are commands that do not deal with salvation but do have a major influence on Spiritual growth, but baptism is not one of them that deals with only Spiritual growth.
Lord Jesus clearly said that if you are not born again you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, and being baptized is part of the born again process to be taken and is what sets us as His disciples.
Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:17 did not do away with baptism as Paul continued to talk about it in other places, and if you continue to read in his epistles you would see that he left the other things of the gospel such as baptism for the other Apostles/disciples/co-workers to do.
His main goal was preaching the word, just as Jesus did in the gospel books, as Jesus did not do the baptizing Himself but left that to the 12 to do. I just love how people still try to use that passage from Paul to try and say baptism was done away with.
Apostle Peter says it is a sign of a clear conscious and is also an anti-type that now saves.....1 Peter 3:21
Peter more then once shows it is part of the salvation process, and so does Paul as they show it how we die to our old self and rise a new creation in the Spirit. Also the bible shows that water and blood both are used in the sanctification process, which is why Jesus told Nicodemus why he did not understand the process when sanctification always required both.
Once again it comes back to that slippery slope, if you are going to tell others to be disobedient by you don't have to follow that command. What other commands are you going to tell others they don't have to do also?
The bible has strict warnings about disobedience.........
K
Honestly, I wonder what some Bible-thumping folks would do if they would find themselves in a place where they can't get to their study Bible, can't get to an internet site or can't reach their cell phone.
How in blue blazes would they even hear the Voice of the Living God without their giant-print-expositor's-leather-bound-study-Bible-with-concordance-and-color-maps?
Really, it sounds like pharisaical court proceedings in this place! All you hear is religious legalese. Long drawn out legal readings of judgment and accusations and condemnation. Holy cats! YOU HONESTLYBELIEVE THIS IS WHAT JESUS SUFFERED AND DIED FOR????????? So we could sit around spouting cold scriptures at one another with no life in our hearts and no joy and mercy and compassion and understanding for one another???
Oooooooooooooooooh my............... Where is the Light of Life in here? Where is the Life that draws men to God? Where is the love of Jesus Christ that beckons the lost to come to the Cross? Where is the grace and sweetness of the Spirit of the Living Lord? Aren't you people tired yet of standing up on your soap box and blowing smoke and dust all over?
I'm sure tired of it. Come down already and spend reality time with Jesus.
View attachment 128035
How in blue blazes would they even hear the Voice of the Living God without their giant-print-expositor's-leather-bound-study-Bible-with-concordance-and-color-maps?
Really, it sounds like pharisaical court proceedings in this place! All you hear is religious legalese. Long drawn out legal readings of judgment and accusations and condemnation. Holy cats! YOU HONESTLYBELIEVE THIS IS WHAT JESUS SUFFERED AND DIED FOR????????? So we could sit around spouting cold scriptures at one another with no life in our hearts and no joy and mercy and compassion and understanding for one another???
Oooooooooooooooooh my...............
Where is the Light of Life in here? Where is the Life that draws men to God? Where is the love of Jesus Christ that beckons the lost to come to the Cross? Where is the grace and sweetness of the Spirit of the Living Lord? Aren't you people tired yet of standing up on your soap box and blowing smoke and dust all over? I'm sure tired of it. Come down already and spend reality time with Jesus.
View attachment 128035
If they couldn't get to their study bibles, internet sites, and cell phones it would most likely be a good thing because they would be able to hear the guidance of the Holy Spirit more clearer without those man made influences.
I myself had to separate myself from all of that for 6 years and did nothing but go straight into His word without all of that outside influence. When I did that hearing the Holy Spirit guide me became a lot clearly and opened my eyes to the clear truth, as I use to believe as others that I was saved by just professing Jesus as Lord, He died on the cross, and rose on the third day.
I found out there is more to it than that as our walk matters as well, as it shows by how one acts if they are truly saved or not.
Remember the phrase actions speak louder than words, well the bible does teach on that as it says you can profess Jesus as your Lord as much as you want, but if your actions do not match your faith in Him then truly you have no foundation of faith built on the Lord Jesus.
V
Amen, Brother Kenneth! Perhaps I should get away from some of these debating threads as it's actually agitating my spirit. I know nothing is impossible with God and it's Him working in us and conforming us into the image of Christ Jesus. I know He is completing what He started in each of us. I guess I just don't have the stomach to sit here and witness the battling against the simple truth.
Thanks for your input, Brother! Blessings to ya!
I'm outta this thread. ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiip! ....and I'm gone.
Perhaps I should get away from some of these debating threads as it's actually agitating my spirit. I know nothing is impossible with God and it's Him working in us and conforming us into the image of Christ Jesus. I know He is completing what He started in each of us. I guess I just don't have the stomach to sit here and witness the battling against the simple truth. Thanks for your input, Brother! Blessings to ya!
I'm outta this thread. ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiip! ....and I'm gone.
Karl Barth was the first one to teach me how to keep the gospel message separate from the way that some in the church misinterpret or fail to live it. This has always given me hope for the discipline of Christian theology. No matter how bad the church mangles it, the message manages to get through from generation to generation.