I do not reverse the order as I have seen many on here do, as they put salvation/eternal life before any of this such as repentance and baptism is done.
I was talking about reversing the order of repentance/faith. Repentance and faith precede salvation which precedes water baptism. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.
Those are the people I am trying to show the truth from the bible as they believe repentance and baptism is the result and not what leads by faith to salvation.
Do you believe that we are saved when we repent and believe the gospel or do you believe that believers remain lost until after they are water baptized? What do you believe it means to believe the gospel/be saved through faith?
Then you fall to the same teaching by man that the second half of Mark 16:16 omits baptism, but it doesn't if you take all the words of the Lord into account.
The second half of Mark 16:16 does omit baptism and simply says, "but whoever
does not believe will be condemned." Just as we see in John 3:18 - He who
believes in Him is not condemned, but he who
does not believe is condemned already, because (he has not been water baptized? NO)
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned." You never did answer my question: If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the
ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? Do you ignore these verses or do you try to "shoe horn" baptism into believes?
For the Lord Jesus said in such passages as Luke 6:46-49 that those who "believe" in Him will do what He said, and He commanded baptism to be done no less then 4 times:
Believing in Him is what saves us (John 3:15,16,18; 6:49,47: 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). Doing what He said "afterwards" is WORKS and we are NOT saved by works, but through faith.
We have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the context, we should say that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation.
If we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned. Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not one
believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse. Again, nowhere does the Bible say whoever is not water baptized will be condemned.
Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" in John 3:5. He did not say born of
baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart wil flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.
John 3:5 - Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is
born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a
drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you
living water.
John 4:14 - but whoever
drinks of the
water that I shall give him will
never thirst. But the
water that I shall give him will become in him a
fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *That's not water baptism.
John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone
thirsts, let him come to Me and
drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow
rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the
Spirit..
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by
one Spirit we were all baptized into
one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to
drink into one Spirit. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.
Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the
washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Not water baptism but spiritual washing/purification of the soul.
John 15:3 - You are already
clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
Ephesians 5:26 - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the
washing of water by the word.
1 Peter 1:23 - having been
born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible,
through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Get the picture?
- By Jesus getting water baptized, it was a part of Him "fulfilling all righteousness". Water baptism is clearly a "work of righteousness" and we are "not saved by works of righteousness which we have done" - Titus 3:5.
Where do you get that from about Acts 2:38 that remission on refers back to the first condition and not the second, when Peter is clearly saying you have to do both to receive that remission and be born again by receiving the Holy Spirit? Apostle Peter continues on in Acts and even in his epistles showing that water is still part to be done by the believer.
Your interpretation is clearly not in harmony with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 and saved through faith, not works/works of righteousness (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5). Greek scholar A. T. Robertson, was probably the greatest Greek scholar of his day. He authored a large Greek Grammar, as well as a six volume series entitled, Word Pictures in the New Testament. In his comments on Acts 2:38 he shows how the grammar of this verse can be used to support more than one interpretation of this text. He then reaches this conclusion: “One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be
done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.”
Acts 3:19 does not omit baptism as the conversion part is the baptism, as when you go back to what the Lord said in Matthew 28:19 it shows by baptism is how we are shown to be converted to be His disciples.
Absolutely false. Peter did not say repent and be baptized and be converted and baptism is not converted. You sound like SeaBass who is a church of Christ zealot. Go and make disciples and baptize them does not mean that water baptism magically causes them to become disciples. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision that is made prior to becoming water baptized.
We can not go and cancel things out just because the exact word is not mentioned, which is why we are told to live by all the words that proceed from God.
Don't forget to rightly divide the word of truth and harmonize scripture with scripture in the process.
Acts 10:43 is not the standard on what comes first the Holy Spirit or baptism, as that passage was the Lord showing the Jews who were contentious about Gentiles having the right to salvation that we do have that right as well. Lord Jesus gave those Gentile believers the Holy Spirit first to squash and put an end to the debate, but if you then keep reading in Acts 10:47-48 Peter commanded them to finish the process by being baptized and nobody could forbid it to be done.
Process of what? These Gentiles had already believed, received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and were saved BEFORE water baptism. They spoke in tongues to demonstrate to the Jews that God has accepted these Gentiles into the body of Christ. These were not lost children of the devil speaking in tongues.
Acts 11:17, 15:8, is just a continuation of the debate that went on from chapter 10.
Yes it was and these verses do not support salvation by water baptism. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism. Acts 11:18 - repentance unto life. Acts 15:9 - hearts purified by faith, not baptism.
The Lord Jesus Christ commanded baptism (H20) and said it must be done to fulfill all righteousness, and also said unless you are born again of water and Spirit you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus told John to permit Him to be baptized, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus said born of water and Spirit, not born of baptism and Spirit. What did Jesus say about "water" in John 4:10,14; 7:37-38? Nothing about baptism. Living water is not water baptism.
If you go back and compare it to how the sanctification process has always be done by God from the OT forward you will see that water and blood both were always used. I am Non-Denomination but have attended both Baptist and Catholic churches in the past, and they both stuck to water baptism to be done by believers.
We are discussing justification, not the sanctification process. Your theology sounds like it is out of the Restoration movement. No Baptists that I know of teach baptism of infants or baptismal regeneration like Roman Catholics do.
1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
Cloud (Spirit) - Sea (Water)
Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not. Some may try and argue: "God put water between the Israelites and deliverance." No, the very opposite is the case: God took water out of the way! He rolled the Red Sea back and Israel went through on dry land! Those who got the water were the Egyptians and what good did it do them? The Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (metaphorically) indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with him as their leader. The word "baptized" in scripture does not always refer to literal water baptism. It can refer to Spirit baptism and can even be used in a metaphorical sense (as I already showed you) and also in Luke 12:50 where Christ was referring to being baptized/immersed into suffering, namely His death on the cross and not water baptism. You must rightly divide the word of truth.