Protestants follow many Catholic traditions that began during the 1st century

[Mec99]

Actually its the Christians of the 1st century that set most of what we do today, not the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church did not appear on the scene until centuries later.

Where in the teachings of Jesus did He ever say that Mary was born without sin?

Where in the teachings of Jesus did He ever say that Mary was assumed into Heaven?

Where in the teachings of Jesus did He ever say that Mary is our Mediator?

Where in the teachings of Jesus did He ever say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

I think you are either totally confused or you are trying to deceive the very Elect into following the false Catholic Church.

I see Satan is alive and well in the Catholic Church today.

 

[sparkman]

I'd actually put their date of starting somewhere about 600 AD. Until then, they were just one bishopric of about six bishoprics of the church. Rome made boastful claims for a few hundred years prior to that. They really didn't have the power that their boastful claims merited.

another thread to push mosaic law down everyone throats. Something told me not to look, but curiosity got to me. I should have stayed away.

news flash. Catholicism did not start until the 3rd century. not the first.

not following the law is the LEAST of the modern churches problems. There are many more problems which need to be taken care of than this.

 

[Mitspa]

using catholic bashing to judaize
(and bash protestantism in the proces too), thats new.

Yea this is a new angle...must have learned this method from Ellen g white

It was GOD through the Apostle Paul that restricted OT law and tradition from entering into the Gentile Church...and the New Testament makes this clear.

 

[sparkman]

They are an apostate church. I don't think any Christians should join them. However I do think there are some Catholics who are born again believers....those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

As a member of a cult I know I was saved but I was in severe doctrinal error, probably no worse than what they are. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Actually its the Christians of the 1st century that set most of what we do today, not the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church did not appear on the scene until centuries later.

Where in the teachings of Jesus did He ever say that Mary was born without sin?

Where in the teachings of Jesus did He ever say that Mary was assumed into Heaven?

Where in the teachings of Jesus did He ever say that Mary is our Mediator?

Where in the teachings of Jesus did He ever say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

I think you are either totally confused or you are trying to deceive the very Elect into following the false Catholic Church.

I see Satan is alive and well in the Catholic Church today.

 

[valiant]

The Encyclopedia Britannica is pretty authoritative. it says:

The Papacy was not organized until the second half of the 8th century. It broke away from the Eastern Church under Pippin III (in the Ency. Brit., 13th Ed., vol. 21, page 636) ; also the Papacy, by Abbe Guette." ​

 

[just-me]

In his letter to Polycarp, Ignatius writes.........

Give ye heed to the bishop, that God also may give heed to you. I am devoted to those who are subject to the bishop, the presbyters, and deacons. (end quote)

In this letter Ignatius gives directives to Polycarp who is in the historical record for passionately resisting the Ishtar (Easter) celebration of Gentile Christians. Polycarp made a special trip to Rome to exhort the Church to continue observing Pesach (Passover) according to the Torah. Polycarp and Ignatius appear to be in two very different camps, yet it seems Ignatius is on a letter writing campaign to make himself as an authority of the church and install himself as a key element (or perhaps was painted into this caricature by later Catholic theologians). Nevertheless, the writings of Ignatius are one of the earliest defects to the original teachings of Christ (Messiah) and Paul, regardless as to how his letters may have been manipulated to suit the founders of the Catholic Church. The fact of the matter is that church hierarchy, massive cathedrals, wickedness within the church leadership, and outright malice against Torah had to start somewhere, and the evidence clearly points to such men at this time in history.

For those who postulate that the Catholic Church began in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] century, they've obviously not read “Ignatius” who appears to be a quintessential Catholic. Ignatius curried favor by his ostentatious copying of Paul's style of speech and then morphing himself into the likeness of Paul's authority within “the church.” While claiming to be nobody special, Ignatius wrote great swelling letters to the early churches, clearly seeking political hierarchical authority. On this note we must always remember that among the early “post-apostolic founders” one can never assume anything to be true, because each and every account has been twisted, reinvented and rewritten by various theologians to suit their their religious ideology.

According to Catholic “perjurymen” who slandered and defamed the characters of honorable men of the Bible, Apostle Paul converted and became a Roman Catholic, and Peter was the first Pope. As abominable and despicable as the idolatry loving Vatican is, it's not too difficult to imagine what Peter and Paul would do if they walked into a modern day Catholic church and saw the images and idols covering the walls, or what manner of paganism the “post-apostolic” leaders have invented for themselves.

I will share the influence of Marcion next.

 

[Mec99]

Romans 16:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

Show us jist-me where in the Scriptures is the Doctrine Mary was without sin? Where in the Scriptures did God ever say Mary was without sin?

I know for a fact God said ALL have sinned.

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Last time i checked the word all includes Mary as being a sinner.

So by your own judgement we are to avoid the Catholic Church because they cause divisions and offenses contrary to the Doctrines which God has given us.

 

[just-me]

Romans 16:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

Show us jist-me where in the Scriptures is the Doctrine Mary was without sin? Where in the Scriptures did God ever say Mary was without sin?

I know for a fact God said ALL have sinned.

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Last time i checked the word all includes Mary as being a sinner.

So by your own judgement we are to avoid the Catholic Church because they cause divisions and offenses contrary to the Doctrines which God has given us.

Scripture doesn't say that Mary was without sin. Ignatius taught that which I have mentioned that he clearly distorted scripture in previous posts. What I am endorsing is that "Protestants follow many Catholic traditions that began during the 1st century." as the title of this thread says. It's not my judgment, it is documented.

see this post

Look up Ignatius on line.

Ignatius of Antioch

 

[valiant]

In his letter to Polycarp, Ignatius writes.........

Give ye heed to the bishop, that God also may give heed to you. I am devoted to those who are subject to the bishop, the presbyters, and deacons. (end quote)

yes and he was very wise. those who cause dissension in a church are condemned by Paul Peter and John. In those days when there were no church buildings the church gathered around the leadership. Those who refused to do so were heretics. In those early days the ministry could still be looked on as reliable and true to Apostolic teaching. We must remember that Ignatius was very aware of a church under intense persecution. Gathering around the leadership would help it to survive, and that was Ignatius' concern..

In this letter Ignatius gives directives to Polycarp who is in the historical record for passionately resisting the Ishtar (Easter) celebration of Gentile Christians. Polycarp made a special trip to Rome to exhort the Church to continue observing Pesach (Passover) according to the Torah. Polycarp and Ignatius appear to be in two very different camps, yet it seems Ignatius is on a letter writing campaign to make himself as an authority of the church and install himself as a key element (or perhaps was painted into this caricature by later Catholic theologians).

Naturally a man who was constantly under guard and being taken to Rome to be martyred, thus having no earthly future, would want to make himself an authority of the church in the few weeks he had left. Isn't that the aim of every man who discovers that his death is not far off? He would never dream of writing because he was concerned for the future of the church. OR WOULD HE?. I think you are doing Ignatius a grave injustice.

Nevertheless, the writings of Ignatius are one of the earliest defects to the original teachings of Christ (Messiah) and Paul,

Ignatius had no New Testament, and would have to consult difficult to read manuscripts in order to learn what Jesus and Paul taught. It is not surprising that he was not as well versed as we are. This deficiency comes out in all the Apostolic fathers. Much of Apostolic teaching was a mystery to them. That is why neither Clement nor Ignatius cite much from the New Testament. it is not surprising that they were somewhat defective..

T

he fact of the matter is that church hierarchy, massive cathedrals, wickedness within the church leadership, and outright malice against Torah had to start somewhere, and the evidence clearly points to such men at this time in history.

Yes the massive cathedrals of the early 2nd century were a feature of the times. For example there was er er er --- can't think of one at the moment. If by church hierarchy you mean a church having a single minister, with assistant ministers and deacons, doesn't sound so far off to me. And as for wickedness in the churches, do you really blame a man on his way to martyrdom for that? It sounds to me as though you have an axe to grind. Ah, yes, malice against the Torah. Funny thing is the Torah was the Scriptures most of them had the easiest access to.

For those who postulate that the Catholic Church began in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] century, they've obviously not read “Ignatius” who appears to be a quintessential Catholic.

Well actually the Roman Catholic church began in 8th century AD. Any genuine comparison with Ignatius is purely illusional.

Ignatius curried favor by his ostentatious copying of Paul's style of speech and then morphing himself into the likeness of Paul's authority within “the church.” While claiming to be nobody special, Ignatius wrote great swelling letters to the early churches, clearly seeking political hierarchical authority.

While on his way to martyrdom? Seems delusional. Was he expecting to come back as a ghost?

On this note we must always remember that among the early “post-apostolic founders” one can never assume anything to be true, because each and every account has been twisted, reinvented and rewritten by various theologians to suit their their religious ideology.

Well this is partly true. Certainly there was much manipulation and forgery.

According to Catholic “perjurymen” who slandered and defamed the characters of honorable men of the Bible, Apostle Paul converted and became a Roman Catholic, and Peter was the first Pope.

Which letter of Ignatius was this in? He did not even know of a bishop of Rome.

As abominable and despicable as the idolatry loving Vatican is, it's not too difficult to imagine what Peter and Paul would do if they walked into a modern day Catholic church and saw the images and idols covering the walls, or what manner of paganism the “post-apostolic” leaders have invented for themselves.

what has this to do with Ignatius ?

I will share the influence of Marcion next.

well at least you can't blame the heretic Marcion for what happened to Rome LOL Or do you?

 

[valiant]

Scripture doesn't say that Mary was without sin. Ignatius taught that which I have mentioned that he clearly distorted scripture in previous posts.

Ignatius never said that Mary was without sin. As his access to the few New Testament books available to him was limited, he was probably unaware of most of what the New Testament taught. He was certainly correct in his view of the danger of Judaisers.

What I am endorsing is that "Protestants follow many Catholic traditions that began during the 1st century." as the title of this thread says. It's not my judgment, it is documented.

Strange as his letters were all written in 2nd century AD on his way to a courageous, if somewhat fanatical, martyrdom. Where is it documented that he wrote anything in 1st century AD? If you know of any they are forgeries.

 

[just-me]

Marcion 110-160 AD


Marcion coined the terms “Old” and “New” Testament. The son of a bishop from Sinope (on the Black Sea), he was a wealthy ship-owner who made large and welcomed contributions to the Roman churches. For awhile, he waited in the wings as a highly respected member of the Christian community; but finally “showed his true colors” during a hearing before Christian leadership in 144 CE. Since the hearing ended with some of Marcion's theories receiving the “thumbs down,” he aggressively went out on his own, propagating new concepts of Christianity which rapidly took root throughout the Roman Empire. Using maligned teachings of Paul, who he believed to be the only apostle who actually understood the teachings of Jesus, Marcion set out to free the Christian Church from “false Jewish doctrines.” By the end of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] century Marcion was challenging the mainstream Christian Churches and rapidly pushing them into the background with his own popular all-Gentile gospel.

In every city of significance Marcionites set up their own churches in defiance (competition with) of the “other Christians” and they flourished right into the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] century. Even today Marcion's theology, which taught that instruction within the Old and New Testaments could not be reconciled to each other, still plays a very distinguished role within most dominations of Christianity. Like most Christian leaders, Marcion was very ignorant of the basic Torah principles.

Next I will write a sample of His teachings that heavily influence Christin theology.

 

[atwhatcost]

Many people call me Calvinist. In a way, I really am. But in the main way, I am not. I do not follow Calvin. I follow Christ.

I am American. This one I do proudly claim. This does not mean I came here on the Mayflower like my Mom's Mom side did. This does not mean I ran from Ireland for a better life, like my Dad's Dad did. This does not mean I had slaves at one point. This does not mean I pioneered to the west, (which, frankly, most of my family never did go west, lol), it does not mean I created a railroad structure, like both sides of my family did, it does not mean I survived the Great Depression, it does not mean I went to war in one of several wars in America's history, and it doesn't even mean I ever did the jitterbug or wore a poodle skirt. (I did wear a mini skirt, but only because I didn't notice I was still growing taller, until one embarrassing moment in the high school lunch room. lol)

I am American, in all the flaws, follibles, and even a few good ways, of what I have done in my very own life.

Sorry, but nope. You're not going to guilt me for something I never did, even if I could possibly trace my family back to the first century to see if any of them ever believed any of this.

Honestly? I'm Irish and the only reasons I know anything about the potato famine that brought many Irish to the country (20 years after my kin came here), was because I like to garden and like to read odd histories like the history of the potato -- which, btw, is a plant from the Andes Mountains, so it's not very Irish at all. lol) So, no, not really big on where ancient people got stuff wrong.

I see no reason to go back in time to find out who got what right and who got what wrong, just to trust in who I know is right. Too little time already to learn all I want to know about God. (Yes, I know. I have eternity. But I still feel like I'm preparing for the world's most important date by learning as much about the date before hand. lol)

I can actually list a few things Calvin got wrong, but, then again, that's history I learned so late in life I get him and Luther mixed up all the time. I don't care. They aren't God.

The only religious indoctrination I ever had was being raise Catholic. Because I've been born again, a lot of that is gone. I infinitely trust God to take away the rest of the drivel imparted onto me. I also trust he doesn't penalize me for having some of that drivel as part of what I think. As long as I get the important stuff, (GOD), the rest simply doesn't matter. He'll be fixing most, (if not all), of us from our poor understanding of him when he glorifies us.

 

[fredjames]

Jesus said that the rock He would build His church on was not the
masculine "petros" (which would be Peter) but the feminine "petra."

The Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek, or possibly Aramaic, not Hebrew.
The oldest known manuscripts of Matthew are in Greek.
The feminine "petra" occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:

• Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock

(petra)I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."

Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."

• 1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."

1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

Peter says Petra is Jesus. This is consistent with Scripture elsewhere where
the term rock is sometimes used in reference of God but never of a man.

• Deut. 32:4, "The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice."

• 2 Sam. 22:2-3, "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge."

• Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is
there any other Rock? I know of none."

• Rom. 9:33, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."

JESUS had to 'choose' someone. for HIM and after HIM, and i hope 'everyone perceive', 'as it is written' for our 'spiritual knowledge of the Kingdom of GOD', we are in, as our New Covenant/Testament/Agreement, to 'practice' and 'abide' and 'bear much fruit' and 'our fruit must abide'.

 

[fredjames]

JESUS had to 'choose' someone. for HIM and after HIM, and i hope 'everyone perceive', 'as it is written' for our 'spiritual knowledge of the Kingdom of GOD', we are in, as our New Covenant/Testament/Agreement, to 'practice' and 'abide' and 'bear much fruit' and 'our fruit must abide'.

Further more, who is the 'only one' given the 'key' of 'binding' and letting 'loose' and as Heaven will follow?

 

[Naphesh]

I hope that someone will find your thread informative, and that it will lead them to the truth. But it really isn't possible for people to accept the truth unless the Father removes the scale from their eyes. It's God who puts the desire for truth in people's hearts, and calls them out of the world, and into the Church. And no one can come to Christ unless the Father calls Him.

2 Corinthians 4:4
​

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

If anyone comes to the truth today, it won't be because you revealed it to them. But because they've been chosen to believe. Good luck.

 

[Elin]

In his letter to the Philadelphians, Ignatius writes.........

But if anyone propound Judaism unto you, hear him not; for it is better to hear Christianity from a man who is circumcised than Judaism from one uncircumcised.
But if either the one or the other speak not concerning Jesus Christ, I look on them as tombstones and graves of the dead, whereon are inscribed only the names of men.
Shun ye therefore the wicked arts and plottings of the prince of this world, lest haply ye be crushed by his devices, and wax weak in your love.

(To make such a statement Ignatius was obviously up against “uncircumcised” Gentiles who kept Torah and the circumcised Jews who followed Jesus Christ; both could potentially have been followers of the original belief of the first apostles)

Inconsistent speculation of the HRM Greek vs. Christ heresy. . .

The following is the gospel truth of Jeremiah and Paul.

“Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; Jeremiah 18:15

Paul writes to Timothy;
“I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 2 Timothy 1:3

And that would be the faith of Abraham (Ge 15:6) to which righteousness is reckoned/imputed.

 

[p_rehbein]

I've only begun. Denying Torah, and Sabbaths (with God ordained feast days) I have quoted previously which the protestant Churches deny also. (for the most part)
Pope Gregory also denied the Biblical calendar and now we all abide by the Gregorian calendar. Every day is named after some pagan god, along with 8 months out of 12. Or there abouts.

Ahh..............ok, I see...........never mind........sigh..........

 

[Mec99]

Matthew 18:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

Matthew 18:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


The binding and loosing were given to ALL the Disciples, not just to Peter!

 

[ember]

I'd be very interested in seeing the source, not doubting, just highly interested.

believe this is it here

 

[passing_through]

Many religious customs within the Christian churches are based on counsel of the “early post- apostolic writers” like Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian. The fact is that these men have shaped Christianity into what it is today. The most common theme from these founders of the Gentile church is that they severely opposed Jewish culture and law, as do most Christian pastors today. Most church founders appear to have been utterly unable to distinguish between Rabbinical Tradition and Torah observance as taught by Christ Jesus and the Apostles.

Excuse me, but hogwash, Born Again Christian's, if they know their Bible, don't oppose Judaism and don't oppose the Torah (God's word). I for one would love to be acquainted with the writing's of the old Rabbi's. We don't oppose, we just know that Judaism was given for a dispensation and a better covenant replaced all of that.