Hebrew Roots Movement

[sparkman]

Funny..I was just reading in Hebrews on this topic earlier today.

My reading plan includes Hebrews, Galatians, II Corinthians, Colossians and Romans. These seem to be key books in regards to understanding the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Poring over every detail with good commentaries, I think, should be required reading for former Sabbathkeepers.

Romans due to justification by faith alone.

And yes, it is all about what Scripture says.

You're equating the Body of Christ with Roman Catholicism.

That is error.

If you really do believe that Christ of the Tribe of Judah is your Mediator, then you have died to the Law and its Levitical priesthood.

Welcome to the New Covenant! \o/

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Another sign of HRM is thinking that the New Testament was written in Hebrew or Aramaic. They think that is God's "pure" language, so although there is NO manuscript evidence whatsoever, they keep harping that it "must have " been in those languages.

In fact, Greek was the language spoken throughout the Middle East and even used by the Romans. Even Jesus must have spoken it, because when he spoke to Pilate, there is no recording of a translator.

Plus, God used the Greek as one of the ways to get the gospel to the known world. Since everyone spoke Greek, the New Testament used that language to spread the gospel rapidly throughout the world.

Even the Jews translated the Old Testament into Greek (LXX) because so few Jews actually spoke Hebrew.

I address this issue at JGIG in these articles:

• Hebrew Roots Movement – The Issue of “Hellenization”
• Hebrew Roots Movement – Messin’ With the Word - there are extensive comments after this post, some of which address the AENT, a version of the Bible popular in the HRM.

The following article touches on this issue, as well, specifically in relation to the LXX:

• Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement - An Examination of 'Identity Crisis' and Related Teachings of Jim Staley

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Funny..I was just reading in Hebrews on this topic earlier today.

My reading plan includes Hebrews, Galatians, II Corinthians, Colossians and Romans. These seem to be key books in regards to understanding the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Poring over every detail with good commentaries, I think, should be required reading for former Sabbathkeepers.

Romans due to justification by faith alone.

And yes, it is all about what Scripture says.

And Ephesians!

There are several testimonies from former Law-keepers at JGIG, and they all relay that it was when they simply sat down and read what those epistles actually said - without the Law-keeping lenses - that they got free \o/.

Here's the page with the testimonies posted thus far:

Testimonies
This page is dedicated to testimonies of those who have once been a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement / Messianic Movement, but by the Grace of God have come to understand their freedom in Christ, rooted and established in love.


​

-JGIG

 

[just-me]

Funny..I was just reading in Hebrews on this topic earlier today.

My reading plan includes Hebrews, Galatians, II Corinthians, Colossians and Romans. These seem to be key books in regards to understanding the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Poring over every detail with good commentaries, I think, should be required reading for former Sabbathkeepers.

Romans due to justification by faith alone.

And yes, it is all about what Scripture says.

I agree with you. This post of yours reminded me of the way Hebrews chapter 4 begins

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[sparkman]

Yes, it's a great chapter..but I am not sure if you are viewing it correctly.

This is talking about the rest of faith that a believer enters into...to interpret verse 9 to apply to the weekly Sabbath would be an error..in fact a special word Sabbatismos was coined to reflect that it is distinctly different than the weekly Sabbath, which is sabbaton.

The whole context of Hebrews is about how the New Covenant, and Jesus Christ, is better than the Old Covenant and everything else.

The "Sabbath" under the New Covenant is placing our faith in Jesus Christ and resting from works to earn or merit salvation, not a physical rest like the weekly Sabbath was.

I elaborated on this in this thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html

In addition, those who should fear were Jews who had renounced Judaism but were in danger of turning back into it before they fully placed their faith in Jesus Christ. They were enlightened but had not stepped over the threshold and placed their faith in Jesus Christ. This group was constantly urged to make the final step and enter this "rest" of placing one's faith in Christ throughout the letter.

I agree with you. This post of yours reminded me of the way Hebrews chapter 4 begins

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[atwhatcost]

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.

This propagates separation between the Jews and the Gentiles. I believe the opposite. Togetherness in Christ is Biblical, and it also is what Paul revealed to us.

This doesn't sound like Judaism, is sounds like what my Christian accusers are trying to convince me of.

More stuff I'm confused about.

God elects some from all nations, right? At one time Israel was a nation. It's a nation again. We're from different nations. If we weren't from Israel originally, we're gentiles. So Israel or those who can go back to Israel as their home country or those who adopted into the Israel beliefs (aka the Jews, although that's not exactly accurate either, since Jews come from Judah, not all of Israel for some reason) and gentiles become Christians. It's not gentiles separated from the Jews. It's gentiles and Jews becoming Christians.

Sort of like I used to be Catholic, but now I'm not.

So how do you get separated in this? Both groups left their groups to become a new group.

 

[atwhatcost]

I started a thread that refutes heresies called "Protestants follow many Catholic traditions that began during the 1st century" in the Conspiracy & Corruption Discussion Forum. Even on that thread I was accused of being a HRM person time after time.
here is the link

I know that's where I saw the first accusation. That's where I get my "Her Royal Majesty" version of HRM. lol

I wasn't sure if that was the first time you were accused of being HRM (real version, not my version), but I did see it first there. Since I'm really not big on the whole what-did-people-get-wrong-along-the-way history lesson, I didn't stay long on that thread. What people got wrong has only caused more confusion in my walk, so I'm not studying too much to get more confused. I realy don't know if she ever backed up her position, but it got kind of boring to see "your wrong. your wrong" without that, so I gave up waiting for the evidence that anyone was wrong. Maybe it happened. Maybe it didn't. But, that's up there with learning all about the Detroit Lions to me. The subject simply doesn't interest me enough to keep going. (And I know it interest you. But I also know the Detroit Lions interest lots of people. Just not my thing.)

 

[atwhatcost]

Denying Christ and the 3 in 1 unit with God, the Spirit of Got and Jesus who is fully endowed with His Father's Spirit ids really bad news to me.
Observing the law minus the Spirit of truth, but only in the flesh is far from attaining salvation. That certainly isn't the key! I observe the writings of the Old Testament, but I don't physically do the rituals. I would however like to hear the spiritual application form a Messianic who does that and get their input. the law is Spiritual, good, just and holy. So that's the way I see it all.

Isn't the only way a Messianic Jew still into the rituals able to do it right is to live near Jerusalem, and find someone still up to roasting goats and living in tents for a while? That may sound like I was trying to be funny, but the thing that always puzzles me with Jewish people is how do they do all those sacrifices? And, if they don't, how Jewish are they really?

 

[atwhatcost]

Keeping in mind that to lable the doctrine whose purpose is to discredit NT Christianity is not to label the person who subscribes to aspects of it.

That's a convenient way to blur the important distinction.

Whoa. Okay, so if you keep telling me I'm into the Catholic heresy without ever explaining what you mean, I'm not supposed to be insulted because you keep repeating that? And add to that, if you said that to me, because I still consider communion a sacrament, but don't buy the rest of the Catholic teachings, (and frankly, you started pitching that line before finding out what JM believes), then are you then absolved simply because a tiny element of truth could be found in your accusation?

All I've ever seen you do was tell JM he's wrong and "HRM heresy" as if that's all you needed to say to explain it.

If I keep telling you you're wrong and NIACI heresy, did that really tell you why you're wrong?

 

[atwhatcost]

Are you referring to Mt 21:43?

The Church is the fulfillment of the true Israel--the fulfillment of the promise to Israel to rebuilt David's tent (Am 9:11-12) in God taking to himself a people from the Gentiles (Ac 15:18-18).

No, Matt. 5:18. You're point, or am I suddenly an HRM because you need to label people and then pretend you aren't labeling people?

 

[KonradC131]

Modern day judiazers, often used by huxsters and money grubbing televangelists as a way to fleece their flock.

 

[just-me]

Isn't the only way a Messianic Jew still into the rituals able to do it right is to live near Jerusalem, and find someone still up to roasting goats and living in tents for a while? That may sound like I was trying to be funny, but the thing that always puzzles me with Jewish people is how do they do all those sacrifices? And, if they don't, how Jewish are they really?

That is a good rhetorical question.

The temple and all that took place within the Levitical law have been fulfilled in Christ. That doesn't mean they are now inert, it means that (as Paul said) the law is spiritual, and in so doing, I believe that the only thing left (now through the tribe of Judah) is the Spiritual discernment of that fulfillment. That was the fulfillment of Jesus, and like Paul said in the correct Spiritual context; "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Romans 12:1

Now there are also instuctions for God's children (believing Gentiles included) to fulfill that which were never totally exclusive instructions for only the Levities. That was fulfilled in Christ. What we do with those instructions, as believers, (beyond those only exclusive to the Levitical priesthood, such as Exodus 20thru 23) in a spiritual manner is what makes us trust in the word of God, not by self performance, but by the motivation of the Spirit within us.

The Spirit, and the Word always work together and if one leaves out the word of God, (including the spiritual relevance of Torah, together with all New Testament writings) they have no confirmation as to what spirit is actually their motivation.

"Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you." Proverbs 1:20-23 (speaking of wisdom)

 

[Elin]

I started a thread that refutes heresies called "Protestants follow many Catholic traditions that began during the 1st century" in the Conspiracy & Corruption Discussion Forum. Even on that thread I was accused of being a HRM person time after time.

Yes, that is the thread where you seek to discredit NT Christianity as does the HRM.

There is no short answer to the OP's question, but Judaizing Sect is the best short description of the movement. Most who identify with the beliefs and practices of the HRM choose not to or refuse to label themselves, either because they think themselves to be of 'pure 1st century religion' or because they know the HRM and other Law-keeping sects are piling up divisions and rotten fruit worse than they accuse the rest of the Body of having.

Years ago I was part of a Mom's Digest, MOMYS (mothers of many young siblings), which for several years was a great blessing with shared wisdom and advice about large family logistics.

Then Judaizing theology crept in.

Law-keeping MOMYS went from posting, "We have been so blessed in our family because we do this (Feast, Sabbath, and dietary law keeping, along with tzitzit wearing, observing niddah, husbands not cutting facial hair, wearing clothing of only one thread, etc."

To posting, "We do this to show God that we love and honor Him."

To posting, "If you really love God you should be doing all of these things, too."

To posting, "if you don't do these things you really don't love God."

To posting, "If you don't do these things, you either really aren't saved or you will lose your salvation."


Some other characteristics in the Judaizing sects, including but not limited to the HRM:

• Little to mention of the Work of Christ - LOTS of mention about our work to maintain/prove salvation.
• They teach that the fruit of salvation is the observing of the commandments given at Sinai, and they strive to exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, most of which they in reality don't exhibit, but rather great spiritual pride and arrogance, unrest, harshness, and verbal tirades. You can browse through un-moderated discussions on social media and blogs to see that this is true. Many Law-keepers eventually get banned on moderated venues for either bad behavior, posting blatant heresy, or both.
• I've received MANY emails from spouses of Law-keepers who relay drastic personality changes along the lines of the pride, arrogance, unrest, harshness, and verbal tirades variety in their Law-keeping husband/wife if the Christian spouse does not submit to the new Law-keeping paradigm. Where children are involved, there is MUCH unrest and confusion. Many marriages, I'm sorry to report, end in separation and/or divorce. One Law-keeper's wife wrote this wonderful testimony of God's Grace in her and her children's lives in the midst of living with her Law-keeping husband (one of the most-read posts at JGIG): A Hebrew Roots Wife Speaks

• A constant tearing down of Christianity (see Hebrew Roots Movement – Salesmanship 101 for more on this topic)
• They teach that Christian traditions are 'pagan' worship (see Ralph Woodrow's excellent rebuttal in "The Babylon Connection?")
• They teach that the Bible MUST be viewed through an Hebraic lens to be properly understood (see Hebrew Roots Movement – The Issue of “Hellenization” for more on this topic)
• The HRM in particular teach that Yeshua/Jesus is the 'Living Torah', reducing Christ down to a written history/code and elevating Torah to Godhood.
• As mentioned by MarcR, they teach mandatory Sabbath-keeping for salvation, along with other, cherry-picked laws.

See any similarities?

That scratches the surface .

Exposed to and studying this belief system and its fruits since 2006 and writing about it since 2008, you can learn more here:

Joyfully Growing In Grace​

There are lots of links and resources along with articles there examining the HRM and other Law-keeping sects. The goal there has been to help the believer to sort out what they're seeing and building them up in who they are in Christ.

Other articles of interest on this topic at JGIG:

• Hebrew Roots Movement – Are They Judaizers?
• Believers in the Hebrew Roots Movement: Are They Lost?
• Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley
• 12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law ‘Keepers’ Crazy
• How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement

I'm thankful to say that I've seen a plateauing of growth in the HRM in the last year or so, partly due to growing awareness in the Body, more pastors preaching the Gospel of Grace message without a mixture of Law, and the continued demonstration of bad fruit in the Hebrew Roots Movement.

I hope that helps to clarify.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

 

[Elin]

I know that's where I saw the first accusation. That's where I get my "Her Royal Majesty" version of HRM. lol

I wasn't sure if that was the first time you were accused of being HRM (real version, not my version), but I did see it first there. Since I'm really not big on the whole what-did-people-get-wrong-along-the-way history lesson, I didn't stay long on that thread. What people got wrong has only caused more confusion in my walk, so I'm not studying too much to get more confused. I realy don't know if she ever backed up her position, but it got kind of boring to see "your wrong. your wrong" without that, so I gave up waiting for the evidence that anyone was wrong. Maybe it happened. Maybe it didn't. But, that's up there with learning all about the Detroit Lions to me. The subject simply doesn't interest me enough to keep going. (And I know it interest you. But I also know the Detroit Lions interest lots of people. Just not my thing.)

As JGIG points out, he promotes the same stuff as HRM.

The call-out was accurate.

 

[Elin]

Whoa. Okay, so if you keep telling me I'm into the Catholic heresy without ever explaining what you mean, I'm not supposed to be insulted because you keep repeating that? And add to that, if you said that to me, because I still consider communion a sacrament, but don't buy the rest of the Catholic teachings, (and frankly, you started pitching that line before finding out what JM believes),

Are you sure I don't know what JM believes?

Perhaps I'm not the one who should become more informed.

then are you then absolved simply because a tiny element of truth could be found in your accusation?

All I've ever seen you do was tell JM he's wrong and "HRM heresy" as if that's all you needed to say to explain it.

Many others know what it is.

If I keep telling you you're wrong and NIACI heresy, did that really tell you why you're wrong?

JM already knows where I'm coming from.

 

[Elin]

We know what "replacement theology" means, and the entire scripture is against it.

Are you referring to Mt 21:43?

The Church is the fulfillment of the true Israel--the fulfillment of the promise to Israel to rebuilt David's tent (Am 9:11-12) in God taking to himself a people from the Gentiles (Ac 15:18-18).

No, Matt. 5:18. You're point, or am I suddenly an HRM because you need to label people and then pretend you aren't labeling people?

My point is Mt 21:43.

 

[MarcR]

Personally, I don't think people can be a part of a movement without being a part of a group having/participating/starting the movement. So, that's why I figure you can't be in Her Royal Majesty... errr, I mean HRM.

But, if you want to figure out what it is, there is Google.

From what I've seen, it looks like that leap comes from your ideology that what was believed in the first century has to be "righter" than what we believe now. On that, we disagree. There wasn't even a full understanding of trinity back then. That took a while to explain what happened when Jesus came, talked about his Father and then talked about the Spirit. All that and yet there is but one God. Still blows our minds today, but although the Bible didn't come to the term "trinity," it also didn't hide there is a trinity. So, I think some folks assume you go whole hog on all HRM stuff, because you really do believe the heresies came along through the centuries. To me, that's leaping to a conclusion to think, just because you think one thing that agrees with any given group of people, you must be within that group of people. That's a leap, simply because the steps in between were completely ignored.

BUT, where I think they're missing it, (or I'm missing it, and just haven't seen you say any of this stuff, but I do usually read what you write, even if I don't respond), is Jesus isn't Yeshua Halmasiach to you, (although I want to slap you lightly for making me have to figure out how to spell those words lol), you don't seem to be big on preaching keeping the Jewish Feasts and customs exactly as the OT says, and you're not into making sure everyone avoids pork, like many of the supposedly Messianic Jews that are more Jewish than Messianic.

Now, personally, I think where we might get more than one goat (as in "get your goat," not as in we're back into properly sacrificing bleating animals lol), is that we still believe the OT commandments still apply. Not so much as in we have to keep them or we aren't saved, but as a way of seeing who God is by how he wants us to behave. So many on here, (and that's more of "a lot" vs. "the vast majority") believe the OT is pretty much wasted space, because none of it counts anymore. (The whole "Jesus killed the Law" vs. "Jesus fulfilled it" debate, that isn't so much a debate, because those who believe he killed it have never studied enough to find out what he really did. They just lap up whatever they're taught, instead of studying for themselves.) So that we believe the OT means much more than "many on here," we must fit into some properly labeled box, if, for no other reason, than others don't have to figure out what we really believe.

In that aspect, I was being both facetious and full-on honest by calling that another form of "Name it and claim it." Something I really wish would stop on here, but honestly? I think that will stop on here the day after that winning lottery ticket does blow into my hand. There is idle wishful thinking and slim chance thinking. That one is probably below the other two. lol

So, that may not help you understand why some want to slam some dumb label on you, but at least you know where a friend stands on the issue. We don't always agree, but friendship never meant we should have to agree.

From what I have observed since receiving Salvation in 1968 on this subject:


1) Messianic Judaism is totally Jewish HRM is almost entirely non-Jewish.

2) Messianic Jews tend to serve in mainstream churches; while HRM tends to be separatist.

3) Messianic Jews are usually NOT Torah observant and do not attempt to put people under Law; while HRM attempts to be Torah observant (IMO unsuccessfully) and does try to put people under Law.

There are other distinctives; but this should clear a lot of confusion.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

since i am tired of responding to these questions over and over...i am just going to copy and paste a response i gave in another thread...


the hebrew roots movement is an amalgamation of many groups with varied doctrines and practices...it is impossible to categorize the entire movement...

in general the hebrew roots movement has a 'light side' and a 'dark side'...the 'light side' is very similar to messianic judaism...it appreciates the hebrew traditions and mindset without compromising the gospel...an example would be the fans of rabbi kirt schneider of 'discovering the jewish jesus'...

on the other hand the 'dark side' of the hebrew roots movement is like just about every other cult...filled with error and even heresy as well as an exclusivism that claims that 2,000 years of christians worldwide have been wrong and hellbound and that these mostly self proclaimed 'rabbis' are the few that actually teach the real truth...an example would be michael rood...

 

[atwhatcost]

I have been accused more times than I have fingers and toes of being a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement. Would some one please explain to me who they are and what they do? All I know is that they are hated by many on cc - what is going on?
I want substantial proof - I don't care about assumptions that make no sense to me.

Just me,
I got to thinking. (ut-oh. lol) Why not just tell what you believe that is similar and what is different from HRM?

The way I understand you is you do believe Christ was/is the Savior. You don't believe you are still waiting for the Messiah (which seems prevalent in the HRM.) So instead of combating misconception after misconception, why not just tell? And I know it takes a long time to cover everything anyone believes, but since so many are under the concept you do believe as the HRM, why not just cover that stuff?

 

[just-me]

I have been accused more times than I have fingers and toes of being a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement. Would some one please explain to me who they are and what they do? All I know is that they are hated by many on cc - what is going on?
I want substantial proof - I don't care about assumptions that make no sense to me.

Just me,
I got to thinking. (ut-oh. lol) Why not just tell what you believe that is similar and what is different from HRM?

How can I do that when I am asking what they represent? I cannot define a difference between me and what I know nothing about.

The way I understand you is you do believe Christ was/is the Savior. You don't believe you are still waiting for the Messiah (which seems prevalent in the HRM.) So instead of combating misconception after misconception, why not just tell? And I know it takes a long time to cover everything anyone believes, but since so many are under the concept you do believe as the HRM, why not just cover that stuff?

I have defined my beliefs to CC the first day that a began posting on this forum. I joined 2 years ago. I think that's plenty of time for people to know what I believe, and why, leaving no room for assumption on my part. That hasn't changed. I did not, and have no started the conflict. Those who rail accusations in assumptions have declared "war" i.e."combat" against me. The only way I cannot be involved in this, is to be silent according to Biblical principles. What would have happened if Jesus, or any of the apostles chickened out and became silent about the truth?