Self defense not justified. OH really??? Well how about this:

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

Utterly absurd, the way "saints" think. It's half the reason our country is going down the toilet. Refusal to get involved in our Republican form of government; fear of speaking about corruption in government from the pulpit because they will lose their non-profit status of an institutional church; believe that if God wants something He will get it for Himself (remember the guy who buried his talent because "he knew his master to reap where he had not sown?").


Well look at this, which is not too far away from now in our future:

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.


And this, too!


Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.



These saints are not crying out to Jesus saying "Oh Lord, have mercy on those who killed us." !!!!!

 

[Jason0047]

Utterly absurd, the way "saints" think. It's half the reason our country is going down the toilet. Refusal to get involved in our Republican form of government; fear of speaking about corruption in government from the pulpit because they will lose their non-profit status of an institutional church; believe that if God wants something He will get it for Himself (remember the guy who buried his talent because "he knew his master to reap where he had not sown?").


Well look at this, which is not too far away from now in our future:

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.


And this, too!


Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.



These saints are not crying out to Jesus saying "Oh Lord, have mercy on those who killed us." !!!!!

Were the saints who blown fire out of their mouths Old Testament saints or New Testament saints?

When the saints return with Jesus to follow him into battle, is it after they have died or were taken home by God or before that point?

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

It's obvious. Why do you need everything spelled out to you in A,B,C's?

The 2 prophets of Rev.11 are New Testament.

Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

What exactly do you have a hard time comprehending?


And the saints crying out to Jesus for vengeance, you think that Jesus is double-minded??? And those saints crying out were told to wait a little longer for more Christians to come into the kingdom, who had been killed as they in like manner.

C'mon, dude. Wake UP!

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

There are no Christians following Jesus into battle. Where do you see that in the bible?

Those with Jesus coming at the 2nd Coming, are angels.

 

[Dude653]

What about when Jesus instructed his disciples to go out and buy swords?

 

[Jason0047]

It's obvious. Why do you need everything spelled out to you in A,B,C's?

The 2 prophets of Rev.11 are New Testament.

Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

What exactly do you have a hard time comprehending?


And the saints crying out to Jesus for vengeance, you think that Jesus is double-minded??? And those saints crying out were told to wait a little longer for more Christians to come into the kingdom, who had been killed as they in like manner.

C'mon, dude. Wake UP!

No. The two future prophets (or two witnesses) in the End Times are Moses and Elijah actually (Who are Old Testament saints that had died). They also appeared on the Mount of Transfirguation during Christ's Earthly ministery, too. In other words, are you an Old Testament saint that has died and been brought back to life whereby you are given special intructions?

 

[Jason0047]

What about when Jesus instructed his disciples to go out and buy swords?

As I said before, most people misunderstood Jesus when he spoke about many things. Nicodemus thought Jesus was talking about going back into his mother's womb but Jesus was talking spiritually. His disciples were in wonder how Jesus had obtained meat that they did not know about after they seen him talking to the woman at the well. But yet again, Jesus was talking in spiritual terms. Many of his disciples had stopped following Jesus all because yet again, they thought he was speaking in physical terms when Christ said that they were to drink of his blood and eat of his flesh. Yet again, Jesus was speaking in spiritual terms. It is no different when Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword. He was telling them to buy the milk of the Word that is free.

Isaiah 55:1
"Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."

How do we know Jesus was speaking spiritually? Because just look at what happened later with the sword.

Did Peter and his disciples win the day for Christ like a bunch of swashbuckling Zorro's? No.

Peter was rebuked by Jesus and He had to undo the damage Peter had done. He told Peter he did not need him to do that because He had an army of angels that he could have prayed to the Father to give to him (if He desired it).

So this was a spiritual lesson for Peter. They all misunderstood Jesus. For he was talking about the spiritual sword, which is the Word of God.

For earlier Jesus told them to pray so as not to be led into temptation. And then Jesus makes a spiritual lesson with the sword or the daily bread of the Word. This of course is all a part of the Lord's prayer.

But let's just ignore that and go back to thinking like the world thinks and pick up our swords of death and destruction. Let's kill our enemies instead of love them. But is that what Jesus really would want you to do? Is that what He told us to do? No, of course not.

 

[Jason0047]

Besides, the Scriptures say we are not to go beyond what is written.

Meaning, you cannot just assume and make things up about the New Testament (When we did not see them happen). In other words, we see no New Testament moments where the saints had used self defense. Nor do we see the saints lay down any rules regarding self defense. Actually the opposite is what Jesus and the apostles taught on that matter. We are not to be overcome by evil, but we are to overcome evil with good.

 

[Jason0047]

There are no Christians following Jesus into battle. Where do you see that in the bible?

Those with Jesus coming at the 2nd Coming, are angels.

This is AFTER the believer or the saint is dead or taken home (after their Eartlhly body is gone). For surely the many commands here does not apply in Heaven. Or do you think there are poor people in Heaven whereby we have to give to them, too?

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

No. The two future prophets (or two witnesses) in the End Times are Moses and Elijah actually (Who are Old Testament saints that had died). They also appeared on the Mount of Transfirguation during Christ's Earthly ministery, too. In other words, are you an Old Testament saint that has died and been brought back to life whereby you are given special intructions?

There's none so blind as he who won't see.

Oh well.


So in the New Testament age, these 2 prophets (who are not Moses and Elijah), are told to violate "the Jason Gospel" and are allowed to kill anyone who tries to kill them.

That's called double-standard, is it not?

 

[EdisonTrent]

Defending ones self against ones self defending the positive against the negative in ones self

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The Lords 2 witnesses are the 2 Olive trees and 2 candle sticks that pour out the golden OIL and also feed the 7 lamps, but they are not to be confused for 2 single individual men, they are just symbolized that way in the book of Revelation. The Lords 2 witnesses are His Word and Spirit that work in all His saints, and the fire that comes out of their mouth is the sword of the Spirit, which is the words of God.

This sword of the Spirit is symbolized many times in sripture as the double edged sword. And the fire that devours their enemies is revealed here....

Jeremiah 5:14
Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

So the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but rather spiritual; but even still this spiritual warfare and double edged sword is given to all the Lords saints.

Psalm 149:6-9[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

 

[jsr1221]

Why are there 2 self defense threads? I've given up trying to get Jason to see differently. If he wants to sit and pray if something happens, that's his decision. I just hope that something never does happen, or I feel he'll be in for an awakening. I just know what I would do, and I suggest you all carry on and not start a new thread on this.

 

[atwhatcost]

Utterly absurd, the way "saints" think. It's half the reason our country is going down the toilet. Refusal to get involved in our Republican form of government; fear of speaking about corruption in government from the pulpit because they will lose their non-profit status of an institutional church; believe that if God wants something He will get it for Himself (remember the guy who buried his talent because "he knew his master to reap where he had not sown?").


Well look at this, which is not too far away from now in our future:

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.


And this, too!


Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.



These saints are not crying out to Jesus saying "Oh Lord, have mercy on those who killed us." !!!!!

The other half of the reason this country may be going down hill is because God's tired of Americans thinking our country IS God.

 

[EdisonTrent]

The double edge sword, one edge for defense one edge for offense

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

The Lords 2 witnesses are the 2 Olive trees and 2 candle sticks that pour out the golden OIL and also feed the 7 lamps, but they are not to be confused for 2 single individual men, they are just symbolized that way in the book of Revelation. The Lords 2 witnesses are His Word and Spirit that work in all His saints, and the fire that comes out of their mouth is the sword of the Spirit, which is the words of God.

This sword of the Spirit is symbolized many times in sripture as the double edged sword. And the fire that devours their enemies is revealed here....

Jeremiah 5:14
Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

So the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but rather spiritual; but even still this spiritual warfare and double edged sword is given to all the Lords saints.

Psalm 149:6-9[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

WRONG!


Try, just for once in your life, to read your own bible and not swallow whole the garbage from comic book authors you value.


Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.


Hermeneutically (do you know what this word means?), contextually, and exegetically, it is talking about 2 guys, two prophets. Nothing less.

 

[Brother_J_BELGIUM]

We all know this Scripture you quote from Revelation 11 is talking about the two witnesses who will be OT saints. Most likely this will be Elijah and Moses, when you look at what they will do. Only at the end of the tribulation the Church will have a resurrected body and they (we) will come with the Lord to execute judgment and to make righteous war against all God's enemies and throw them into hell along with the beast and the false prophet.

The reason why there is not a single reference in the NT about Christians waging war against them is because our struggle is not against this world or against flesh and blood. We are now in an era of peace, offered by God, for those who are willing to repent. When the final seven years begin, this grace will go away and that's why there will be so much war and bloodshed.

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

Brother Belgium,

It seems you believe in a pre-trib rapture. But what if the church continues right up to the last second, when Christ returns with all the holy angels with Him, and then they begin taking out all stumbling block (tares, i.e. weeds) FIRST?

That is what Jesus said would happen.

Might I suggest you read my 1st, 2nd and 3rd post on this thread. Please. Give it a read, and see if you don't change your viewpoint. Especially the 2nd and 3rd post of this thread.


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/118950-somebody-asked-why-church-such-bad-shape.html

 

[tourist]

No. The two future prophets (or two witnesses) in the End Times are Moses and Elijah actually (Who are Old Testament saints that had died). They also appeared on the Mount of Transfirguation during Christ's Earthly ministery, too. In other words, are you an Old Testament saint that has died and been brought back to life whereby you are given special intructions?

Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11). He did not die.

 

[Todd_TruthSeeker]

Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11). He did not die.

That's a poor idea. Why? How many thousands, or hundreds of thousands, will be alive when they go up with Jesus at His Return?


They will not have died, now will they. Hmmmm?


So that breaks this false idea that has been handed down through the centuries, since many will not be dead when Jesus comes for them.