Liberation from the Imperialist Patriarchy of the Bible

[kaylagrl]

Where did you find the post you replied to?

It was removed by the mods I think...

 

[MarcR]

Sound of hornets nest being opened....

While I certainly do not believe that Scripture advocates subjugation of women; I can not find any support for J. S. Andrews allegation that the writer of Hebrews did not understand Hebrew. A statement like that only detracts from my predisposition to give her a fair hearing.

 

[BarlyGurl]

What does this mean in a practical sense? Wives be subject to your husbands in all things. Does that simply mean the husband has the final say, but if he gives her flexibility to manage or make decisions in certain traditionally masculine roles (let's say making the majority of the income, or knowing better how to handle a gun in the face of a threat because she grew up around them in the country)... then that's ok?

I think if you read verses 22,23,24 as a whole thought, this clarifies the matter. This is giving the God ordered authority structure within the marriage. And YES if your husband gives you flexibility and authority in "non-traditional" areas you are free to perform those functions.... yet in doing so YOU are accountable to your husband (you are acting in his stead) and you are accountable to God to be performing those functions as your husband's helpmeet... as opposed to usurping his authority and doing whatever you want to.
If you consider that the verse DOES say, your husband is the head (the authority) that means truly your husband is accountable to God for YOU, but if you usurp his authority in your actions... you remove the spiritual protection it provides as well has cause harm to YOUR witness for Christ.
Does this clarify adequately for you?

 

[Aerin]

I think if you read verses 22,23,24 as a whole thought, this clarifies the matter. This is giving the God ordered authority structure within the marriage. And YES if your husband gives you flexibility and authority in "non-traditional" areas you are free to perform those functions.... yet in doing so YOU are accountable to your husband (you are acting in his stead) and you are accountable to God to be performing those functions as your husband's helpmeet... as opposed to usurping his authority and doing whatever you want to.
If you consider that the verse DOES say, your husband is the head (the authority) that means truly your husband is accountable to God for YOU, but if you usurp his authority in your actions... you remove the spiritual protection it provides as well has cause harm to YOUR witness for Christ.
Does this clarify adequately for you?

Yes but I don't necessarily agree that if it were the reverse, it's ok for the husband to "usurp" the wife and do whatever he wants because he's the established authority. Those decisions should be made together, not in a way where the wife is somehow overruled. In a practical sense, I see Christian couples today making many more decisions together, more than in past generations where the wife simply left the brunt of financial / social responsibilities to her husband while she tended to the home or gathered with other homemakers.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Yes but I don't necessarily agree that if it were the reverse, it's ok for the husband to "usurp" the wife and do whatever he wants because he's the established authority. Those decisions should be made together, not in a way where the wife is somehow overruled. In a practical sense, I see Christian couples today making many more decisions together, more than in past generations where the wife simply left the brunt of financial / social responsibilities to her husband while she tended to the home or gathered with other homemakers.

Well, according to the scripture... "Your yes But" does not harmonize with the word of God. The wife has no authority over her husband (save intimate relations) to be usurped. A husband CAN deny, disregard and dismiss His wife's wishes, feelings and requests (and some do) but then this is an accountability issue between GOD and your husband. You can decide to TRUST what God said and obey his order and authority and receive the blessings from it.... or refuse and reap fruit of rebellion.
Don't you WANT to trust God? Do you think you can handle an a disagreement with your spouse better than God can?

 

[PoetMary]

I'm still trying to figure out "Jesus teachings of love which were given before there ever was a bible"...Whaaa?

What this means is that the words of Jesus predate the writing and canonization of the New Testament. Obviously, Jesus was alive after the OT (although, tbh, all of what we call the "OT" wasn't officially canonized by the Jews until after Christ as well). Certainly, the OT books were around.

Yeah...but the NT writings and canonization came after the words of Christ.

 

[Aerin]

Well, according to the scripture... "Your yes But" does not harmonize with the word of God. The wife has no authority over her husband (save intimate relations) to be usurped. A husband CAN deny, disregard and dismiss His wife's wishes, feelings and requests (and some do) but then this is an accountability issue between GOD and your husband. You can decide to TRUST what God said and obey his order and authority and receive the blessings from it.... or refuse and reap fruit of rebellion.
Don't you WANT to trust God? Do you think you can handle an a disagreement with your spouse better than God can?

So a husband CAN (by law and spiritual order) deny, disregard and dismiss his wife's wishes, feelings and requests and apart from him accepting the consequences of those actions in their relationship, this is acceptable by the definition of wives be subject to your husband in all things?

I see a lot of that in other threads, marriages that are on the rocks, husbands who are absolutely insistent on doing their own thing. The fruit of rebellion in that case would be a husband not loving his wife as Christ loved the church. But when a husband loves his wife, that cancels out the "right" he has to dismiss all of her feelings and requests.

It sounds to me like Ephesians 5:25 brings equality and balance to Ephesians 5:22. This is what I meant by couples having freedom to make important decisions together, which happens more today than it did in times past.

 

[BarlyGurl]

So a husband CAN (by law and spiritual order) deny, disregard and dismiss his wife's wishes, feelings and requests and apart from him accepting the consequences of those actions in their relationship, this is acceptable by the definition of wives be subject to your husband in all things?

I see a lot of that in other threads, marriages that are on the rocks, husbands who are absolutely insistent on doing their own thing. The fruit of rebellion in that case would be a husband not loving his wife as Christ loved the church. But when a husband loves his wife, that cancels out the "right" he has to dismiss all of her feelings and requests.

It sounds to me like Ephesians 5:25 brings equality and balance to Ephesians 5:22. This is what I meant by couples having freedom to make important decisions together, which happens more today than it did in times past.

Yes, Eph. 25 is the Responsibility of man to GOD to love his wife as Christ loved the church And gave himself up for her.
It seems like, you are struggling with the first verses, (and my comments) as a FAITH issue. I do not think you are being contentious, I do believe you are earnestly inquiring to know... so in keeping with that idea... I think you are having trouble understanding the spiritual implications that practicing obedience to the word by faith.... what doing that allows for God to accomplish in our yielded (to his Lordship and word) for our good.
In renewing your mind in Christ... which is conforming our thinking to what he says about all matters (and putting them to practice) many of the "conflict" you are associating which are causing the resistance (the "yeah but") will fall away, because your attitude (view of issues) changes as you conform to the word. This is active faith and the subsequent "transforming/sanctification" power through God.
Because the very first authority structure ordained by God is the Family (God, Husband, wife, children)... this is the most important area to study the word and conform your mind to scripture.... as you do that... it will make other "life issues" easier to yield to Christ's Lordship.
A very good study on marriage is an inductive bible study by Precept bible studies called "marriage without regrets", I encourage you to be like a Berean and study the word of God for yourself, the above mentioned study is a very good resource tool to help you study the word in context and prayer with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Another good book to jumpstart your faith walk regarding marriage is "the power of the praying wife".
If you have some "private concern" you are welcome to pm me and I will try to assist you. Otherwise I think I have "spoken" sufficiently on the matter and again encourage you to STUDY!

I did forget to mention that it is not good to formulate theology according to what we see in the world rather conform our theology to the word of God... I think you know that... but for all reader's benefit.

 

[pwrnJC]

To Jsandrews1...... I actually responded to your post with a full page, but though better of it, and deleted it. Sounds like YOUR personal agenda preceeds and takes over what GOD would have you do for HIM......going out into the highways and biways, inviting others to come and see what HE has prepared for them. Your personal agenda is not giving JESUS CHRIST any glory. YOu are tooting your own horn and promoting your own hype. We see no testimony, no holy spirit's touch, no nothing except your misguided analogy. Your own words express exactly what you are inside....total confusion. Confusion only comes from one source.

 

[Aerin]

Yes, Eph. 25 is the Responsibility of man to GOD to love his wife as Christ loved the church And gave himself up for her.
It seems like, you are struggling with the first verses, (and my comments) as a FAITH issue. I do not think you are being contentious, I do believe you are earnestly inquiring to know... so in keeping with that idea... I think you are having trouble understanding the spiritual implications that practicing obedience to the word by faith.... what doing that allows for God to accomplish in our yielded (to his Lordship and word) for our good.
In renewing your mind in Christ... which is conforming our thinking to what he says about all matters (and putting them to practice) many of the "conflict" you are associating which are causing the resistance (the "yeah but") will fall away, because your attitude (view of issues) changes as you conform to the word. This is active faith and the subsequent "transforming/sanctification" power through God.
Because the very first authority structure ordained by God is the Family (God, Husband, wife, children)... this is the most important area to study the word and conform your mind to scripture.... as you do that... it will make other "life issues" easier to yield to Christ's Lordship.
A very good study on marriage is an inductive bible study by Precept bible studies called "marriage without regrets", I encourage you to be like a Berean and study the word of God for yourself, the above mentioned study is a very good resource tool to help you study the word in context and prayer with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Another good book to jumpstart your faith walk regarding marriage is "the power of the praying wife".
If you have some "private concern" you are welcome to pm me and I will try to assist you. Otherwise I think I have "spoken" sufficiently on the matter and again encourage you to STUDY!

I did forget to mention that it is not good to formulate theology according to what we see in the world rather conform our theology to the word of God... I think you know that... but for all reader's benefit.

Thank you for the reading suggestions, I did NOT intend to make it sound as if the wife has no power in her submissive or helper role. My "yes but" was in defense of the woman who finds herself at the unfortunate hand of a dominant, neglectful man who's abusing his authority. A man does not, or at least shouldn't have the right to walk around in disregard for his wife as you seemed to suggest. Too many men have been told that, or brought up believing it's just how things are because wives are to submit... and they will no matter what!


In the case where a husband's actions are out of control, absolutely it becomes a faith issue for the wife to stand strong and still remain in her submissive role. She suddenly finds herself on the raging seas of the unknown, and it takes all the faith and comfort a loving God can provide to see her through and not give up while everything around her seems to be sinking.


But the ideal relationship shouldn't require the wife's faith to be challenged just because the husband "can" do his own thing no matter what. Does it require his staunch resistance and her reluctant agreement to make her prove her faith? What if she comes up with a more productive or responsible idea, carries it out and he agrees? I was praising the idea that submission and dialogue is a "mutual" responsibility, and it says so one verse earlier in 21: Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.


If the husband is loving his wife, there would be more balance and verse 22 would compliment verse 25, instead of verse 22 standing alone unconditionally. In verse 25, we are reminded that Christ loves us and gave Himself for us. Would you submit to Christ if He acted the way of a sinner, and without the promise of love?


Any man who thinks he deserves the submission of verse 22 without practicing the love of verse 25 doesn't deserve (or isn't responsible enough) to hold a position of authority. When he realizes that, he'll read verse 25 in the greater context, especially verse 21, and we won't see more threads about how marriages are on the rocks because the husband won't listen and doesn't care.