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We know what's in a person's heart by the type of fruit they bring forth and the type of words they say. If one is speaking falsely and accusing others falsely and throwing around false judgments, and coming across as overtly hateful and not loving in any way, then we know that such a person has not become born again spiritually. One can say that one has been born again, but the proof in the pudding is in the fruit of their life. For Paul says we are not to know our own selves but we are to examine whether or not Christ is in us unless we be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). So are you a true believer? Well, you and others who side with you are revealed by the type of fruit that is brought forth. If someone were to look objectively at what you and others say here, could they say your fruit is good or bad?
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It's not just a matter of having what appears to be good fruit. If one also is bringing forth evil fruit, then we know it is not a good tree, but a bad tree (According to Jesus). A believer who sins, can only be made right thru confessing and forsaking of sin with the Lord working in them to do that.
K
Hebrews 10:27
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
It says clearly there judgment, not wrath, and in order to understand the context of the writer of Hebrews on what he is talking about so that we do not get the wrong context is when can go back to the previous chapter;
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The judgment being spoken of is after death, so this can not be the wrath of God that is poured out on the earth.
For the writer of Hebrews is making a comparison between the old covenant and the new covenant, and those that rejected Moses and his laws in the old covenant will face judgment just like those who reject Jesus and His teachings in the new covenant will face judgment.
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
It says clearly there judgment, not wrath, and in order to understand the context of the writer of Hebrews on what he is talking about so that we do not get the wrong context is when can go back to the previous chapter;
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The judgment being spoken of is after death, so this can not be the wrath of God that is poured out on the earth.
For the writer of Hebrews is making a comparison between the old covenant and the new covenant, and those that rejected Moses and his laws in the old covenant will face judgment just like those who reject Jesus and His teachings in the new covenant will face judgment.
Not all Christians are mature is more to the point. Remember Scripture outlines the fruits of the spirit as fruit, not fruits, if God is this fruit in us we receive it all not earned one piece at a time. Remember our Spiritual reality is that we have gained his demeanor thru sitting in things already accomplished in Christ. The package of fruit is a bundle pack.
K
It is not my fine line or standard that addresses this, it is the word of God that says if a person falls away/departs from the faith to return to a deliberate sinful lifestyle or false teaching they will not return to the Lord unless they repent of those way/s.
If you are walking in deliberate/willful sin/s then you are walking by the flesh and Paul says that way leads to eternal death, and he and Jesus both say and show you can not serve both flesh (sin) and the Him (His righteousness/walk by the Spirit) both. Trying to do both is a double minded man who the bible says is unstable in all of his ways (James 1:8), Paul calls them carnally minded (Romans 7-8), and our Lord Jesus says those who try to serve both are luke warm and He will spit them out (Revelation 3:16).
If you are walking in deliberate/willful sin/s then you are walking by the flesh and Paul says that way leads to eternal death, and he and Jesus both say and show you can not serve both flesh (sin) and the Him (His righteousness/walk by the Spirit) both. Trying to do both is a double minded man who the bible says is unstable in all of his ways (James 1:8), Paul calls them carnally minded (Romans 7-8), and our Lord Jesus says those who try to serve both are luke warm and He will spit them out (Revelation 3:16).
K
The thing is that Jesus said we will know true believers from the false professing ones, because the fruit they produce and said a good tree can not bear bad fruit. Meaning if you are truly born again you will not have the fruits of the Spirit produced through you, and also be able to walk in everyday habitual sin. The bible makes it very clear those fruits of the Spirit will be evident in how we speak, treat others, and learn self control and gain victory over sin by Christ.
John said the condemnation of the law no longer abides on those who have trusted into and identified with Christ by faith! The righteousness of God has been applied unto a believer by faith while their sins and lost nature have been nailed to the cross of Christ...Jesus ever lives to mediate for those who genuinely believe!
G
In reality the author is pointing out a three tier judgment of discipline for HIS PEOPLE.
He covers the OT~~Moses, a believer in reversionism faced capitol punishment as discipline or judgement.....not loss of salvation.
He covers the NT~~ the believer who faces maximum discipline is under the sin unto death(physical death)......not loss of salvation.
He covers the 1000 year reign~~even worse discipline......not loss of salvation.
This is judgement/discipline for "HIS PEOPLE" not for unbelievers. He doesn't call unbelievers "HIS PEOPLE"
Heb 10:30~~New American Standard Bible
For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
He covers the OT~~Moses, a believer in reversionism faced capitol punishment as discipline or judgement.....not loss of salvation.
He covers the NT~~ the believer who faces maximum discipline is under the sin unto death(physical death)......not loss of salvation.
He covers the 1000 year reign~~even worse discipline......not loss of salvation.
This is judgement/discipline for "HIS PEOPLE" not for unbelievers. He doesn't call unbelievers "HIS PEOPLE"
Heb 10:30~~New American Standard Bible
For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
K
Yes those who "abide" in Christ, and when you read his epistle from chapters 2 to 4 Apostle John clearly explains what abiding in Christ looks like.
As he multiple times says if you do this then you do not have Christ abiding in you in those chapters;
1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(2:15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
(3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
(3:15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
(3:24) And he that keepeth His commandments abides in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
(4:20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
As he multiple times says if you do this then you do not have Christ abiding in you in those chapters;
1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(2:15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
(3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
(3:15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
(3:24) And he that keepeth His commandments abides in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
(4:20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And all have sinned and fall short...sin is what? Separation from God right?!! He goes on to say "For the wages of sin is death...what does wages mean? VERDICT! now we are then judged as you have outlined. But Gods answer was never mentioned in changing sins sentence, it was in wiping its penalty out, by who? Christ right?!! OK I think we are on the same page yet...but heres the problem, you got in and walk this earth in. God never said the bridge was a shortened bridge you can't jump off the bridge until you get there and then you are already merged so you never take Him off anyway.Whats the point of a bridge if you jump off of it before crossing?
K
The issue is that you do not realize that we will all stand before the Lord at judgment and give account of ourselves rather good or bad. (Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10)
Those that where disobedient to His teachings are appointed with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46), and Apostle Paul says this;
Romans 2:6-10
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
The only ones who receive eternal life Paul and Jesus both show is those who continue in faith obeying His teachings !!!
Hebrews 10 is about judgment that takes place after death, as the previous chapter clearly showed as the writer does not change the context of what he is talking about from chapter 9 to chapter 10.
K
I refuse to answer the question with anything but the Word of God which I already did, for I do not set the line between eternal life and eternal death.
Our Lord Jesus did that in His word by showing us how we will be if we are truly born again.
Post #114 I gave verses from the Apostle John's first epistle, and if any of those traits he mentions there is still a part of your life John says eternal life/Christ/Holy Spirit does not abide in you. That epistle is a clear written epistle to show us if we are truly born again and saved.
Our Lord Jesus did that in His word by showing us how we will be if we are truly born again.
Post #114 I gave verses from the Apostle John's first epistle, and if any of those traits he mentions there is still a part of your life John says eternal life/Christ/Holy Spirit does not abide in you. That epistle is a clear written epistle to show us if we are truly born again and saved.
The words of Jesus are clear...by belief the condemnation has been removed..it is a once for all act....only those who have not believed are condemned John chapter 3......! You cannot lose salvation and again, your verbiage points to the fact that you believe in a self sustained, working for salvation pseudo gospel even though you deny it and or are blind to it!