Suicide=hell?

Angela53510 · Jul 28, 2015

Christine1974 said:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Matt 11:28-29
I would have to say this means exactly the opposite of God will not give us more than we can handle. In fact, it means that there are many things WE cannot handle. The only way to get through it, is to lean on Jesus and trust him totally. And that is a process and a journey.

Many things happen in our life which we cannot handle. But as we mature in Christ, we learn to trust him IN SPITE of our circumstances.

This is one verse I have meditated on a lot, when the physical pain has been severe. It helped me to hang onto my sanity when I felt like going down the tubes. Because 10/10 pain, when you are literally screaming at the top of your lungs, and have to be taken to the ER in an ambulance, is more than I could ever handle. But once the pain shots took effect, I was able to think on this verse, and pray that I would never be afflicted like that again. Sadly, it happened over and over this year. But I still trust God, no matter what my circumstances. It doesn't mean that this trite cliqué has any validity, though.

I really would urge you to start reading the Bible through. Your theology consists of slogans, trite sayings and twisted Bible verses. You would really benefit from actually reading the whole Bible. Well, we all would!

Jason0047 · Jul 28, 2015

VCO said:

Leviticus 16:20-22 (GW)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] “When he finishes making peace with the LORD at the holy place, the tent of meeting, and the altar, he will bring the living goat forward.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Aaron will place both hands on its head. He will confess over it all the sins, all the rebellious acts, and all the things the Israelites did wrong. He will transfer them to the goat's head. A man will be appointed to release the goat in the desert.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The goat will take all their sins away to a deserted place. The man must release the goat in the desert.

THERE is picture prophecy of Christ's redemptive work, and the desire to confess that all genuine believers are given by the HOLY SPIRIT.

NOW when were we SAVED BY HIM?

Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Oh My! We were saved BY HIM before the earth was formed. That is very possible IF HIS Omnipresence includes being present in every second of time at the SAME TIME, hence HE truly is THEE "I AM".

Ephesians 4:32 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 2:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

No MATTER HOW you look at it Jason, that means all of your sins were future tense, when HE forgave them when HE nailed them to the Cross. You are not Forgiven because you were obedient and confessed them, YOU are FORGIVEN because of what HE DID ON THE CROSS, and IF you are genuine believer (which I think you are) YOUR obedience is a by-product of HAVING BEEN SAVED BY HIM nearly 2000 years ago. How long are you going to continue to think that you are saved because of your obedience? It is the opposite, you obey because HE SAVED YOU. I have been trying to get you to understand that for as long as I have known you. How long has that been, probably since the first week you joined?

Romans 5:8-10 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, being now justified {past tense} by his blood{not by our obedience}, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

NO, we do not get to pat ourselves on the back for any of it.

As for your theory that we can lose our salvation, that DOES NOT SQUARE with what the Scriptures actually say.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Whenever it appears that one LOST his or her SALVATION, it validates that they were NEVER saved in the first place. We have a lot people these days that have entered through the broad gate that leads to the destruction of HELL. THEY ALL THINK THEY ARE CHRISTIANS, when in reality they fell for something LESS than genuine Salvation. In reality they have "GONE THE WAY OF CAIN", which is self-styled worship, redefining what a real personal relationship with Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER, really is. It is a counterfeit of genuine Christianity.

You do not want to discuss reading too much into Matthew 6:15 because it exposes what you wrongfully believe. Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 6:15? Believers or unbelievers? Think about it.

Gr8grace · Jul 28, 2015

Angela53510 said:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Matt 11:28-29
I would have to say this means exactly the opposite of God will not give us more than we can handle. In fact, it means that there are many things WE cannot handle. The only way to get through it, is to lean on Jesus and trust him totally. And that is a process and a journey.

Many things happen in our life which we cannot handle. But as we mature in Christ, we learn to trust him IN SPITE of our circumstances.

This is one verse I have meditated on a lot, when the physical pain has been severe. It helped me to hang onto my sanity when I felt like going down the tubes. Because 10/10 pain, when you are literally screaming at the top of your lungs, and have to be taken to the ER in an ambulance, is more than I could ever handle. But once the pain shots took effect, I was able to think on this verse, and pray that I would never be afflicted like that again. Sadly, it happened over and over this year. But I still trust God, no matter what my circumstances. It doesn't mean that this trite cliqué has any validity, though.

I really would urge you to start reading the Bible through. Your theology consists of slogans, trite sayings and twisted Bible verses. You would really benefit from actually reading the whole Bible. Well, we all would!

I only like this post for your message. I don't "like" what your going through Sister.

Angela53510 · Jul 28, 2015

VCO said:

I think the majority of people have told Jason to stop setting up this straw man of easy believism over and over and over!

I don't know if he doesn't read those posts, if he is so stubborn he cannot learn; if having met one or two believers in eternal security who perhaps were living apostate lives, he has extrapolated it to everyone; or if he suffers from some kind of obsessive complusive disorder or autism, where he simply does not have the capacity to move forward in his beliefs; but whatever the cause, Jason is simply not teachable.

I guess that is why the ignore button becomes so important in this forum. It has helped me immensely in not having to deal with people who simply are stuck in a very ignorant view of theology, misuse Scripture and cannot change.

Christine1974 · Jul 28, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Angela. First off I'm sorry to hear about the pain you are going through. I don't really think we disagree on the meaning of that scripture as much as you think. With God we can handle anything. Perhaps it got lost in translation. And I can't tell if you're being snide or not in your posts to me. In a post you mentioned you would pray for me not to get ill. You mentioned that my medication must be messed up or something like that and now this post about my bible reading. Surely you don't need me to posts the many scriptures about using our words to speak evil. We are to encourage one another not insult. And if you're not being ugly with your words then I apologize and will just chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

VCO · Jul 29, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Why wouldn't I want to discuss Mat. 6:15.

Matthew 6:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

How do I get thru to you, I explained, the majority of people who THINK they are Christians truly are NOT. In the Parable of the Gates, BOTH GROUPS THINK THEY ARE CHRISTIANS ON their way to Heaven; while only the FEW who entered through the Narrow Gate of genuinely receiving Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning Master; are those who are SAVED. That genuine born again Believer, has the Holy Spirit IN him or her, and therefore is empowered to DO the WILL of GOD; therefore they WILL obey, as an act of LOVE for GOD. WHICH MEANS they WILL forgive men their Trespasses. THOSE who do NOT have the Holy Spirit in them, WILL NOT FORGIVE MEN THEIR TRESPASSES. They are the TARES that the devil has sown among the WHEAT. THEY are the MANY on the Broad Road to Destruction. THEY are the MANY who cry out "LORD, LORD, we have done many great things in your name"; but they have NEVER established that inner personal LOVE relationship that comes only AFTER one has willingly out of LOVE surrendered complete control of their lives to JESUS CHRIST as LORD, meaning MASTER. THEY are those who falsely think acknowledging that Jesus Christ is who HE claimed to be, equals being SAVED. WRONG, that is what the 2000 demons in the demoniacs at Gadara believed, and NONE OF THEM WILL EVER BE SAVED:

Luke 8:28 (NKJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him {a prostrate worship position}, and with a loud voice said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!"

THAT KIND OF BELIEVING does NOT equal Being SAVED.

VCO · Jul 29, 2015

Angela53510 said:

I think the majority of people have told Jason to stop setting up this straw man of easy believism over and over and over!

I don't know if he doesn't read those posts, if he is so stubborn he cannot learn; if having met one or two believers in eternal security who perhaps were living apostate lives, he has extrapolated it to everyone; or if he suffers from some kind of obsessive complusive disorder or autism, where he simply does not have the capacity to move forward in his beliefs; but whatever the cause, Jason is simply not teachable.

I guess that is why the ignore button becomes so important in this forum. It has helped me immensely in not having to deal with people who simply are stuck in a very ignorant view of theology, misuse Scripture and cannot change.

For some reason, GOD will not let me give up on him that easily.

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Well, first, I believe you are falsely slandering me so as to protect your false belief in a sin and still be saved doctrine (OSAS, Once Saved Always Saved). For you do realize VCO is condoning the idea that a person can commit suicide and still be saved? Right? That is what we are arguing about here. How is that not condoning sin? If one can commit suicide and still be saved, then what other sins can a believer commit? See, what you fail to understand is that there are different levels of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) that makes excuses for sin.

OSAS Classic
This is the false view that you can abide in unrepentant sin and or live however you like and still be saved. Belief in Jesus is all you need to get thru the gates of Heaven.

Mid Range OSAS
This is the false view that a believer cannot live a habitual lifestyle of sin. However, abiding in one or two unrepentant sins before you die will not necessarily send you to the Lake of Fire.

OSAS Lite
This is the false view that you have to be penitent and live a holy life in order for OSAS to be true. If you do not repent and you do not live holy, then you were never born again to begin with.

Another false doctrine that is tied to OSAS and is popular at TOL (Theology Online)::

Mid Acts Dispensationalism (MAD)
This is the false teaching that there are two or more gospels under the New Testament. This false doctrine was created no doubt for people to deny the holy teachings of Jesus Christ. Which is popular among Classic OSAS proponents. For Paul's words on holiness are easier to twist than Jesus' words.

In any event, all forms of OSAS are false and they can be proven false by God's Word and by way of using a real world example of how real life works. For all forms of OSAS will say that you cannot stop sinning. They deny Sinless Perfectionism even though Jesus told us to be perfect like the Heavenly Father and even though Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. For denying Sinless Perfectionism is the silver bullet of OSAS to many who claim that they are not in approval of a sin. But 1 Peter 4:1 says that they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Paul says, sin shall not have dominion over you. Paul says, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul answers that with.... "God forbid." Meaning you cannot continue in sin (i.e. with the thinking you will forever sin).... so that grace may abound.

So no. You are the one who is not seeing clearly in what the Scriptures plainly teach.

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

VCO said:

That doesn't make any sense. Jesus is not into talking to both false believers in Christ and true believers in Christ. Jesus speaks truth. Jesus is either speaking to believers or unbelievers. He is not talking to them both pretenders and true believers in Matthew 6:15.

A false Christian is still an unbeliever. It would not do them any good if they forgave everyone on the planet. They would still be unsaved because they accepted a false Christ and gospel whereby they need to get saved. So Jesus is speaking to the Spirit filled believer. He is telling them that it is is possible for them to not be forgiven if they do not forgive. For like I said. It does no good for an unbeliever to forgive everyone whether they be a professing Christian or not.

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

Here is the sickening fruit of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), if people want to learn the truth:

GEORGE SODINI

WoundedWarrior · Jul 30, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I agree more with the individual who you were replying to here.

Yesterday was my first day on these forums, and this is already my impression of you:

You force your beliefs upon others. If (and when) they disagree, you condemn them.
You have little patience with others and you do not seek to understand others' points of view.
You only see what you want to see, and then you run with a small ounce of understanding.
Instead of using ALL forms of literary interpretation, you only use that which suits you and your point of view.
You believe the "scriptures are plain and simple", yet people have dedicated their entire lives to better understanding the Bible and its meanings -- and still died with unanswered questions.
You come across as a very conceited person, who has all the answers - and will not acknowledge the mystery that is God.

Nothing is "plain and simple" about a book that was written over the course of several hundred years, by 40+ people, in a couple ancient languages, and then later revised, later translated, revised again, translated again, etc. Nothing is plain and simple about a book that we consider to be the Holy Word of God.

Except one thing -- its message of LOVE. Which is what you seem to be missing, as evidenced by your lack of compassion, empathy, understanding, and patience with others here on the CC forums. I strongly challenge you to look back over some of the conversations you have had with people. Try to understand their perspective, and then try to imagine how your replies to them were received.

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

Well, from the start there is already a problem in your approach. One, you are not addressing my points in Scripture so as to address the "belief" in any way but you are doing what most OSAS proponents do. Attack the person rather than the doctrine. Second, your impression and opinion is not the same as the truth of God's Word. Your opinion is merely looking from the outslide looking in (without getting all the facts). For I have been discussing OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), or Antinomianism, or a "Sin and still be Saved Doctrine" for many years now with many people. I know how they speak and I know how many of them treat others wrongfully. I know how many of them will accuse others falsely. I know their beliefs. I know the verses that they pull out of context. I know the excuses they make. I have heard it all a hundred times before.

For how long have you been discussing OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved)? Do you keep with sticking to Scripture or do you just insult others like I have seen many times before?

For is having knowledge of God's Word and being certain about it a bad thing? Did not Paul have a certainty of God's truth?

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

Also, I am sensitive to what people tell me in what they actually believe. Does that mean, there is not bound to be misunderstandings? Of course not. And there have been many times I have apologized to people for misunderstanding them in what they had said. However, if somebody is for darkness, then they are going to side with those who are of darkness or all those who keep pushing a false doctrine that leads or points a person to sin (Rather than it leading to God's righteousness). Those who stand by God's righteousness and truth will be on the other side of the line of defending what is good and right. There is a clear dividing line here. There are other believers who believe just as I do (And they say the same thing), Not out of some hate or malice, but in love towards them to see the truth so that they might repent.

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

For do folks honestly believe that doing wrong will ever be accepted by God? That is what OSAS asks of me (Which goes against everything I know to be true, good, and right by the LORD).

VCO · Jul 30, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Jason I explained in great detail, ALL of our sins were paid for on the CROSS.

We are SAVED, not because of what we do or did not do, but because of what HE DID.

We are SAVED by GRACE alone, and Faith and Salvation is a free gift to all who are BORN AGAIN.

BORN AGAIN is a Work of the HOLY SPIRIT, where HE births our human spirit into ETERNAL life.

GRACE is RECEIVING what we do not deserve and CANNOT earn.

Mercy is NOT receiving what we DO DESERVE.

Those who WERE SAVED by HIM, have had the GOD's LOVE poured into their hearts.

THAT LOVE, produces or spawns, LOVE for GOD, the ability to receive HIM as LORD, empowerment to obey, joy, peace, patience, literally every thing that comes from GOD.

The ONLY SIN that sends anyone to HELL is rejecting all the above, choosing instead to remain lord of your own life, which is blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit.

We are not SAVED because we confess sin, WE CONFESS SIN BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN SAVED.

Mark 3:28-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

VCO said:

No, 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin. This is in context to 1 John 2:3-4. For 1 John 2:3 essentially says we can know that we have an assurance in knowing Christ if we find that we are keeping His Commandments. 1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him.

Jesus said, why do you call me LORD, LORD, if you do not do what I say? Can you be Jesus' Lord and not do what He says? According to you, this would be a "yes." But according to Jesus and His Word, this would not be the case.

Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see the LORD.

Titus 1:16 says there are those who deny Him in works.

Hebrews 5:9 says Jesus is the author of Eternal Salvation to all who OBEY Him.

Ioannis · Jul 30, 2015

God says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13), and suicide is murdering oneself.

WoundedWarrior · Jul 30, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I am not attacking you. I am disagreeing with you.
And further disagreeing with your methods,
as well as your choice of words when responding to fellow Christians.

You are quick to tell others that they are wrong. You seem to think that there is no problem with your approach, yet many have told you (and continue to tell you) that there ARE problems with your approach. You simply ignore us, and assume that we are wrong - I guess, because you think you are correct.

Jason0047 said:

How audacious to claim that you are standing in the light, while condemning those who have gone before you, as well as those who are currently following Jesus.

[h=3]Romans 16:17 ESV [/h]I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

[h=3]Ephesians 4:1-3 ESV [/h]I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

[h=3]Galatians 5:19-21 ESV[/h]Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[h=3]John 8:43-47 ESV [/h]Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

[h=3]John 3:16 ESV [/h]“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[h=3]2 Peter 3:16 ESV[/h]As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

[h=3]John 20:31 ESV [/h]But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

[h=3]John 5:39 ESV [/h]You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

[h=3]1 John 1:9 ESV [/h]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[h=3]Galatians 3:28 ESV [/h]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[h=3]John 10:27-29 ESV [/h]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

VCO · Jul 30, 2015

Jason0047 said:

NO, we believe that ALL men are EQUALLY GUILTY of breaking ALL of GOD's LAWS.

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

WE ARE SO BAD that there is NOTHING WE CAN EVER DO TO BE ACCEPTED BY GOD.

WE throw ourselves on HIS MERCY and DEPEND on HIS GRACE for Salvation.

We are NOT better than the WORST mass murder on Death ROW, WE ARE AS BAD AS HIM.

Obedience is NOT really part of being accepted by GOD, BECAUSE, HE ACCEPTED US WHILE WE WERE YET DEAD IN OUR SINS.
There is absolutely NOTHING we can do to earn ANY ACCEPTANCE, WE ALL DESERVE ETERNITY IN HELL.

So what is Obedience all about then?

LOVE FOR HIM!

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

1 John 5:2-4 (NRSV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith.

Obedience has EVERYTHING to do with expressing our LOVE FOR GOD; and very little to do with BEING ACCEPTED by HIM. HE ACCEPTED US before the foundation of the WORLD, when HE WROTE OUR NAMES IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, and HE PROVED that HE HAD ACCEPTED US WHEN HE DIED FOR OUR SIN ON THE CROSS.

Doesn't your arm get very tired when you are vainly patting yourself on your back for earning part of your SALVATION?
We do not deserve it, but HE DID IT ALL, because HE LOVED US. Can we LOSE our SALVATION? NO, because HE and HIS FATHER are the ones who HOLD AND KEEP IT. WE would lose it for sure.

John 10:28-30 (NRSV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life {It is not eternal if you can lose it.}, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one." {The ETERNAL LIFE that HE gave us, cannot be lost by us. BECAUSE HE IS THE ONE THAT IS HANGING ON TO IT.}

When you are claiming you are walking in obedience to earn part of your Salvation, you are dishonoring GOD and Robbing HIM of HIS GLORY. HUMBLE yourself, bow to HIM or throw yourself prostrate before HIM, begging for HIS FORGIVENESS. AND THANKING HIM FOR ALL THAT HE HAS DONE FOR YOU.

Then GET BACK UP AND SERVE AND OBEY HIM AS A WAY TO SHOW YOUR LOVE FOR HIM, BECAUSE HE SAVED YOU!

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

First, I like to know what exactly I have said that makes my approach so wrong. For if I had said something wrong, I would like to see specific post #'s and quotes in what I said (of which you think condemns me). Then I will be more than happy to discuss if it was wrong or not by way of the Bible and by way of using real world examples. For I am not a Terminator. I can actually be reasoned with (as long as you are fair, honest, and make sense). Second, in my experience, those who focus a laser beam on some unknown problem(s) in what I say and ignore the actual point of topic looks like a diversion tactic to me so as not to discuss the real issue (Which is the Scriptures). Third, there is nothing wrong with correction: For the Scriptures themselves say that I can reprove and correct others by the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16). Also, Paul tells us that we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather, reprove them. Why do I use such harsh language towards those of the OSAS camp by saying they are of darkness? Like I said. It is from experience in dealing with them personally for many years and in knowing what they believe. Also, those who hold to all forms of OSAS do not believe they can stop sinning. This is the silver bullet to all forms of OSAS. So they can't claim that they are on the side of righteousness. For to say that you cannot stop sinning is wrong morally because it is saying that one will just do some kind of future evil because of some fallen sin nature. This is making an excuse for sin. However, the true believer believes those Scriptures that say that they can cease (stop) from sin (Such as 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14). Yes, some of these believers might stumble on the road to overcoming sin. However, the point is that they believe one day they will stop sinning and that they will in time overcome sin in this life by the power of Jesus Christ working in them. A real world example would be sort of like an alcoholic who stumbles on occasion on his road to recovery of being sober. However, the OSAS Proponent who thinks they will always sin sometime in the future and yet believes they are free is sort of like an alcoholic who claims he will never stop drinking and yet he says he is sober miraculously somehow at the same time. So the OSAS belief does not make any sense and neither does it line up with any kind of morality or goodness that comes from God.

Side Note:

I will address your verses above soon. Thank you for posting them.

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