Suicide=hell?

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. So it is not an empty accusation. Like I said, I have been discussing this topic with OSAS proponents for a long time now and I know my opponent very well (in how they behave and in what they believe).

Well, not all gospels are the same. There is the one true gospel of Jesus Christ that promotes repentance and righteous living and then there are false gospels that do not do so. For we are told to put away outside of the church that brother who is behaving wickedly (or in a sinful manner within the church).

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are outside? do not you judge them that are within? But them that are outside God judges. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13).

This is within the unity o fthe Spirit within the true church of God. This does not include those who have accepted a false Christ or a false gospel that allows for one to sin and still be saved or to think that they will forever sin because of some fallen sin nature.

Yes, very good. This actually refutes the OSAS proponent's false way of thinking that they will never fall away from the faith. For if a believer sins (that Paul lists above) and they do not repent and forsake those sins, then they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Again, this actually refutes the OSAS Proponent because the Pharisees do what the father (the devil) desires and Jesus says they are not of God. This lines up with what John says in 1 John 3:8. For he says that he that sins is of the devil. He then says he that is born of God does righteousness. However, the OSAS proponent will claim this as heresy and Works Salvationism. Some in the OSAS camp say that one can even sin and still be saved at this point. However, what the OSAS proponent fails to understand is that it is Christ who does the good work within the believer. The believer merely surrenders to Christ and the Lord works his righteousness in their heart and lives. That is why it is not works salvation. For if God lives in you, then surely the fruit will be evident to show that (See 2 Corinthians 13:5).

Well, if you were to keep reading past John 3:16 (Which is the #1 most popular verse in the Bible), then you would also come across the "Condemnation" in Scripture in John 3:19-21. For it says everyone who does evil hate the light. So if one is an OSAS proponent who thinks they can sin and still be saved does not understand the "Condemnation" in what it says.

Well, when you read 2 Peter 3:16, you also have to read the verses that proceed it. For it says we look for the promise of a new heavens and new earth wherein dwells righteousness. This is why we are to be found of him in peace, and without spot and blameless.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, in which dwells righteousness. Therefore, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (1 Peter 3:13-14).

So 1 Peter 3:16 does not support a sin and still be saved doctrine or a belief that you will always sin at some point in the future.

Belief is synonymous with faith (See James 2:17-19); And faith is described as both a belief and as an action in Hebrews 11. Faith is also said to be dead without works, too (James 2:17). For Titus 1:16 says that there are those who deny Him in works. Hebrews 5:9 says Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Jesus said, why do you call me LORD, LORD, if you do not do what I say? Jesus said if you love me, you will keep His commandments. In John 14:23, Jesus says, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." John 12:48 says if we reject the words of Jesus, then those very words will judge us on the last day. Paul says, if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Well, I believe Jesus can be found in many shadows and types in the Old Testament. But this verse does not help you to prove OSAS. For when you read John 5:39 you also have to read verse 29 when Jesus says,

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation."

Did you catch that? It says that they that have done evil will be at the resurrection of damnation. So the OSAS proponent who thinks they can sin (do evil) and still be saved will not be at the resurrection of life because they have not done good.

Yes, this verse disproves the OSAS Proponent's false belief that all future sin is forgiven them. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Meaning confessing sin = forgiveness of sin.

Being one in Christ Jesus only applies to those saints who are faithful to Christ. However, in my experience in talking with OSAS proponents, I have been called some pretty nasty stuff and have been falsely accused many times. But the Scriptures talk about how this was going to happen, though.

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Galatians 4:29).

"One day Sarah saw the son that Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham, poking fun at her son Isaac." (Genesis 21:9 MSG).

What type of sheep will never perish and not be snatched out of his hand? The passage says it is sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. This is not talking about rebellious sheep being dragged on leashes by their necks. For Isaiah says, we are like sheep who have gone astray. So it is possible for sheep to go astray and be lost. The key question is: What type of sheep do you choose to be? A sheep that follows? Or a sheep that goes astray?

VCO · Jul 31, 2015

Jason0047 said:

You have got to start learning to hear JOHN, through the Greek Perfect Tense verbs that HE USES. I prefer to call them Continuous Action Tense verbs, because that is the type of action that they describe. LET me try this again and this time I will KEEP it extremely simple.

Romans 5:5 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.

THAT IS THE VERY INSTANT WE ARE BORN AGAIN and SAVED. THAT LOVE from HIM produces in our new born human spirit LOVE FOR GOD, which is NOT the normal nature of us sinful human beings.

1 John 5:3 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] This is love for God: to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome,

GOD's LOVE that HE poured into our hearts, produces in us LOVE for HIM that manifests itself in the form of OBEDIENCE; and ALL OF THAT IS GENERATED by the HOLY SPIRIT.

John 14:15 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me, you will obey what I command.

If our LOVE for HIM is that genuine LOVE that spawns out of HIS LOVE that was poured into our hearts, WE WILL CONTINUALLY STRIVE TO OBEY, and that CERTAINLY INCLUDES "1 John 1:9"; therefore continually confessing every new sin that we recognize in ourselves, is part of the NEW NATURE of our born again human spirit THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT BIRTHED IN US. YOU KEEP trying to TAKE CREDIT for what is the HOLY SPIRIT is doing in you, as IF you have to EARN FORGIVENESS.

YES a genuine born again Christian WILL CONFESS SINS, but NO it is NOT our actions that EARN forgiveness, IT IS WHAT HE DID ON THE CROSS AND WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS DOING IN US. It is NOT something we can take credit for. I do not know how to make it any simpler. 1 John 1:9 is saying in the same manor as we continually confess every new sin (OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM), CHRIST continually forgives our sins, and STAMPS THE SIN DEBT PAID IN FULL (OUT OF LOVE FOR US), because of what HE DID ON THE CROSS, not because of what we did on our knees. HOW DO I KNOW THAT, because that is what HE says in HIS WORD.

Colossians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, {NOTE: that is FORGIVEN - PAST TENSE, and ALL certainly includes sins of the PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE.}

Jason I truly PRAY that the Lord turns the light bulb of understanding on in your spirit, because TRULY you are trying to take credit for, or at least partial credit for HIS FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS and the HOLY SPIRIT's work in your human spirit. One last PROOF that HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ONE, WHO IS DOING ALL that work in our human spirits:

Philippians 1:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

We do not get to pat ourselves on the back, we get to humbly bow and THANK HIM for what HE is doing in and through us.

Can you now say THANK YOU JESUS, for SAVING ME, and mean it 100%.

As for your point on walking in holiness, remember it says the Tribulation Saints, WILL WASH THEIR SIN STAINED ROBES IN HIS BLOOD. THAT PICTURES the source of HOLINESS. HOLINESS is not a result of human effort; IT IS BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID ON THE CROSS. WE inherit HIS HOLINESS because of HIS OBEDIENCE and HIS SHED BLOOD, not because of our efforts.

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

Not at all. I am not taking any credit. I believe Jesus does the good work in me. Not sure how many times I have to say that. Do you need verses for me to prove that to you?

VCO · Jul 31, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Then you need to be more careful how you word things, because you were leading all of us be believe you believed you were earning your forgiveness by what you do. Our FORGIVENESS, is UNDESERVED, because in this BODY we still have a sin nature, that can raise it's ugly head occasionally. Like Dr. John MacArthur has put it on a number of occasions. "A Christian is not sinless, but as he or she matures spiritually, they will sin less, and less, and less." Only at our resurrection or Calling Out, will we finally have a body that cannot even think sin, however, you are correct, holiness is the goal or target that we aim at our whole life:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (YLT)
[SUP]51 [/SUP] lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we--we shall be changed:
[SUP]53 [/SUP] for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
[SUP]54 [/SUP] and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up--to victory;

In those verses, I believe the word corruptible refers to both the corruptible nature of the flesh that dies and decays because of SIN in us; and the corruptible nature of our sin nature making us susceptible to sinning again, and it is that sin nature that we inherited from Adam that we desperately NEED TO GET RID of permanantly, before we can go to heaven. HENCE the description of the absolute NEED for the bodies that are now IN, which NEED TO Be Changed BY HIM at our Resurrection or our Calling Out. THAT is when we will have a truly Holy Body.

I think if you talked about how the LOVE of GOD is changing you from the inside out to be more and more like CHRIST, it would go a long ways to helping us understand you.

WoundedWarrior · Jul 31, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. So it is not an empty accusation. Like I said, I have been discussing this topic with OSAS proponents for a long time now and I know my opponent very well (in how they behave and in what they believe).

Well, not all gospels are the same. There is the one true gospel of Jesus Christ that promotes repentance and righteous living and then there are false gospels that do not do so. For we are told to put away outside of the church that brother who is behaving wickedly (or in a sinful manner within the church).

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are outside? do not you judge them that are within? But them that are outside God judges. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13).

This is within the unity o fthe Spirit within the true church of God. This does not include those who have accepted a false Christ or a false gospel that allows for one to sin and still be saved or to think that they will forever sin because of some fallen sin nature.

Yes, very good. This actually refutes the OSAS proponent's false way of thinking that they will never fall away from the faith. For if a believer sins (that Paul lists above) and they do not repent and forsake those sins, then they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Again, this actually refutes the OSAS Proponent because the Pharisees do what the father (the devil) desires and Jesus says they are not of God. This lines up with what John says in 1 John 3:8. For he says that he that sins is of the devil. He then says he that is born of God does righteousness. However, the OSAS proponent will claim this as heresy and Works Salvationism. Some in the OSAS camp say that one can even sin and still be saved at this point. However, what the OSAS proponent fails to understand is that it is Christ who does the good work within the believer. The believer merely surrenders to Christ and the Lord works his righteousness in their heart and lives. That is why it is not works salvation. For if God lives in you, then surely the fruit will be evident to show that (See 2 Corinthians 13:5).

Well, if you were to keep reading past John 3:16 (Which is the #1 most popular verse in the Bible), then you would also come across the "Condemnation" in Scripture in John 3:19-21. For it says everyone who does evil hate the light. So if one is an OSAS proponent who thinks they can sin and still be saved does not understand the "Condemnation" in what it says.

Well, when you read 2 Peter 3:16, you also have to read the verses that proceed it. For it says we look for the promise of a new heavens and new earth wherein dwells righteousness. This is why we are to be found of him in peace, and without spot and blameless.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, in which dwells righteousness. Therefore, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (1 Peter 3:13-14).

So 1 Peter 3:16 does not support a sin and still be saved doctrine or a belief that you will always sin at some point in the future.

Belief is synonymous with faith (See James 2:17-19); And faith is described as both a belief and as an action in Hebrews 11. Faith is also said to be dead without works, too (James 2:17). For Titus 1:16 says that there are those who deny Him in works. Hebrews 5:9 says Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Jesus said, why do you call me LORD, LORD, if you do not do what I say? Jesus said if you love me, you will keep His commandments. In John 14:23, Jesus says, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." John 12:48 says if we reject the words of Jesus, then those very words will judge us on the last day. Paul says, if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Well, I believe Jesus can be found in many shadows and types in the Old Testament. But this verse does not help you to prove OSAS. For when you read John 5:39 you also have to read verse 29 when Jesus says,

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation."

Did you catch that? It says that they that have done evil will be at the resurrection of damnation. So the OSAS proponent who thinks they can sin (do evil) and still be saved will not be at the resurrection of life because they have not done good.

Yes, this verse disproves the OSAS Proponent's false belief that all future sin is forgiven them. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Meaning confessing sin = forgiveness of sin.

Being one in Christ Jesus only applies to those saints who are faithful to Christ. However, in my experience in talking with OSAS proponents, I have been called some pretty nasty stuff and have been falsely accused many times. But the Scriptures talk about how this was going to happen, though.

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Galatians 4:29).

"One day Sarah saw the son that Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham, poking fun at her son Isaac." (Genesis 21:9 MSG).

What type of sheep will never perish and not be snatched out of his hand? The passage says it is sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. This is not talking about rebellious sheep being dragged on leashes by their necks. For Isaiah says, we are like sheep who have gone astray. So it is possible for sheep to go astray and be lost. The key question is: What type of sheep do you choose to be? A sheep that follows? Or a sheep that goes astray?

I am not a sheep. I am a sheepdog, and you are messing with my Master's flock. Please cease.

Jason, when you reach the Pearly Gates, I believe Peter will say: "Wow man! You have more rigid rules than your Maker!"

Here are a couple more verses for you to consider, hopefully you take them a little more to heart this time (personally), rather than continuing to use them for the purpose of apologizing for the issue of Sinless Perfection:

Matthew 7:1-5 ESV

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Romans 14:1-23 ESV

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Sincerely,
WW

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

How do you define a person as a sheep? Is it a person who has a mere belief on Jesus alone with no real change in their life? Is it a person who believes they will forever sin (with again having no real change in their life because they are still like the old man)?

The Bible describes how we are sheep who follow their Master (i.e. the Good Shephered). Dogs are usually associated with the Gentiles who had once been separated by God because of their sinful ways (Such as the case with the Canaanite woman who used a parable with Christ). Jesus said He has other sheep that he must bring into the fold and not dogs. This would be the Gentiles. They were once dogs (which lines up with the parable of the Canaanite woman), but they are going to be like sheep now instead. For even Peter says this about dogs,

"But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, 'The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire' " (2 Peter 2:22).

So you are saying that Peter will essentially say to me that when I get to the pearly gates, "That I have more rigid rules than my Maker?" However, how can Peter be against the teachings of Jesus Christ? The verses I quoted to you before were not my own rules that I pulled out of some hat somewhere but they were taken straight from God's Word. You did not address them. Again, Paul essentially says, "if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing" (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). Jesus said, "Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock." (Matthew 7:24-25). Jesus said, "And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

For Peter describes those who teach a doctrine that leads people right back into sin's corruption (Which is what OSAS does). For Peter says,

"These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that have just escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (2 Peter 2:17-20).

So your issue is not with me or any rules that I have made. For what rules can you find that I made up? So your issue is with God's Word and the Commands or Truths given to you by the Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles.

Again, your issue is not with me, but it is with Scripture. 1 Peter 4:1 says, "Since therefore Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin;" Galatians 5:24 says, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Romans 6:14 says, "For sin shall not have dominion over you."

Well, I am not against the idea that a believer will stumble or struggle with sin on their road to recovery or overcoming sin in this life. But this is not what the OSAS Proponent believes. They believe there is no overcoming or recovery from sin in this life. They believe you will always be a slave to sin and never cease from sin (Whether you suffer in the flesh or not) (Which is a flat out denial of 1 Peter 4:1). So my position is not that I am condemning folks for struggling with sin. My position is one of "belief." The OSAS Proponent holds the "belief" of a defeated position that they will not be conquerers thru Christ be they themselves will be conquered by sin in this life. Always defeated and put down by sin and never having any true victory in Christ Jesus. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. He does this within a person's life. The OSAS Proponent has no hope or chance in ceasing from sin in this life because they do not believe the Scriptures that talk about that. I believe the Scriptures that talk about that. So this is not an issue of struggling with sin, but has to do with one of "belief." For the OSAS Proponent is essentially making an excuse to sin the rest of their lives here as if that is okay. I do not believe that is okay. I believe one day I will overcome sin (And it could even be today, or tomorrow). In other words, I am trying to get people to "believe" the Scriptures that talk about how they can stop sinning. I am not expecting them to change overnight by believing those Scriptures (Although, I am sure it is possible).

Being weak in the faith is in context to eating certain foods and drink and the observances of holy days. This is not in context to the verse I shown you before that you just flat out ignored that says this,

"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not entirely with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must you needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are outside? do not you judge them that are within? But them that are outside God judges. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

VCO said:

John MacArthur teaches OSAS Lite (or Level One Type OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

This belief is dangerous and evil for two reasons.

#1. OSAS Lite causes one to doubt the promises of God in regards to salvation.
#2. OSAS Lite denies one can cease from sin as 1 Peter 4:1 and Galatians 5:24 teach (like all versions of OSAS teach).

#1. OSAS Lite causes one to doubt the promises of God in regards to salvation. How? The devil is very clever. See, when some believers slides back into a lifestyle of sin, then they will then begin to question if their original acceptance and walk with God was ever real to begin with. So when they come back to the faith, they will never have any true assurance that they are ever saved by God's Word (being ever fearful that they may not be born again if they backslide into a life of sin again). Granted, a person backslides into sin does not have salvation anymore. But they can repent of such a sin and come back and have full assurance of God's Promises again and live for Him in confidence. James 5:19-20 and the Parable of the Prodigal Son both show how a believer can go from a saved state to an unsaved state (Because of sin) and then come back to being saved again (Thru reprentance of sin). For David was reconciled by God thru his confession in Psalm 51. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). For 1 John 1:9 is a promise that a believer can bank on and trust. If they confess sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive sin. But we must understand that is also in context to 1 John 1:7 to those who walk in the light, too (i.e. to forsake sin). For if we walk in the light as he is in the light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. This lines up perfectly with 1 John 2:3-4. In 1 John 2:3 it essentially says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we find that we are keeping His Commandments. But 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

#2. Sinless Perfectionism (or ceasing from sin) is denied by all OSAS proponents. For they want to make excuses for having sin in their life. They are afraid of the idea of walking in holiness and being a slave to righteousness in this life instead of being a slave to sin.

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesians 4:17-27).

For if you believe we will always continue in sin, then how can you put off the former conversation of the old man and putting away all lying according to the passage above? How are we to not give place to the devil if we continue to alway sin in this life? How have you not given yourself over to lasciviousness if you believe you will always sin? Are we to not walk anylonger as the unbelieving Gentiles walk?

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

John MacArthur's Saving Faith And
Holiness Message Summarized

To recap, John MacArthur's counterfeit saving faith and holiness teaching declare the following:

A true Christian possessing saving faith can commit occasional acts of adultery and drunkenness. (Hence, there are some Christian adulterers and Christian drunks.)

A true Christian possessing saving faith can murder himself (be a suicide) and afterwards go to heaven, even though he died as an unrepentant murderer.

Before that doctrinal war, John MacArthur made the secular newspapers across the USA in the 1980's because his church was sued over the suicide of Kenneth Nally, who received "counsel" from those who worked at Grace Community Church and afterwards went through with it.

Source:
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/MacArthur.htm

WoundedWarrior · Jul 31, 2015

Jason0047 said:

No, my issue is the same as I communicated previously -- your disregard for common methods of scriptural interpretation, your lack of regard for a fellow Believer's point-of-view (empathy & compassion), and your zero-desire to be humble in your approach.

You continually press YOUR interpretation of scriptural passages upon others, yet you show zero desire to consider that your understanding may not be 100% accurate (or not the ONLY possible interpretation). When someone else attempts to describe THEIR understanding of scripture, you (always) blatantly say that their understanding is incorrect -- or taken out of context. Not once, have I seen you confirm or affirm someone in a response. Is it possible, that YOU have a misunderstanding of some of the Good Word? Is it possible, that YOU may also be guilty of using verses out of context?

[h=3]Luke 18:9-14 ESV [/h]He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ ...

[h=3]Philippians 2:3-11 ESV [/h]Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. ...

[h=3]1 Peter 5:5 ESV [/h]Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

[h=3]Ephesians 4:2 ESV [/h]With all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,

My ability to have patience with you is running thin.
I sincerely hope that someday, the Holy Spirit will convict you -- that someday, someone will be able to better-explain what I (and others) have been attempting to show you.

This concludes my interactions with you.

Godspeed,
-WW

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

Okay. Before I address your verses again. You are first going to have to address the ones that I have brought up, my friend. Otherwise it appears you are just coming at me from a one sided argument (by looking at only those verses you prefer).

WoundedWarrior · Jul 31, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Eat your own words, for your view of me is very similar to my view of you.

This most recent response (above) is exactly what I thought, after your FIRST response to me.

We obviously do not see eye-to-eye and I am done trying to help bridge the gap, because you show me no desire to do the same.

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

Well, if you were interested in proving what is true and you actually want to help other people for God's Kingdom (By others reading here), then I do not see why you would not want to explain the verses I brought up. I believe you cannot answer the verses, that is why you choose not to explain them.

WoundedWarrior · Jul 31, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Since you still fail to understand why it is that I choose not to entertain your points, recall this:

Jason0047 said:

This was our first interaction, and you completely missed the underlying purpose for my bringing Romans 7 to the conversation. I have tried, on several occasions, to imply that there are various interpretations of scripture -- interpretations which have been argued for centuries. Why is it that while theologians continue to debate, you refuse to debate -- is it because you know that which cannot be known?

To hold you to the same standard you hold me, I believe your interpretation of Romans 7 is incomplete and, thus, inaccurate:

A commentary on Romans 7 from the Reformation Study Bible:

"7:14–25 The sudden change to the present tense in vv. 15–25, by contrast with the statements describing the past in vv. 7–13, raises the question whether Paul is now describing his present experience. A variety of interpretations exists, including the following: (a) Paul is describing the unregenerate person or perhaps the Jew in particular from the standpoint of the gospel; (b) Paul is describing a Christian in an unnatural and unhealthy spiritual condition, one failing to draw on the indwelling Spirit’s resources; (c) Paul is describing the transitional experience, possibly his own, of one who has been awakened to his true spiritual need, but has not yet entered a full experience of justification by faith; (d) Paul is describing himself and Christians generally who, although in Christ and free from the condemnation of the law, do not yet perfectly fulfill the requirements of the law. The last view is the most probable interpretation. It accounts for Paul’s shift to the present tense while his theme in vv. 7–25 (God’s holy law stimulating and exposing sin) continues, and for the presence in Paul’s self-analysis here of elements found only in persons who have been united with the risen Christ to new life in the Spirit (6:4–11; 7:6; 8:4–9). Paul is aware that God’s law is “spiritual” (v. 14). He actually delights in God’s law, desiring to fulfill it perfectly (vv. 15–23), and he is distressed that sin in him opposes that desire. He is grateful at the prospect of future deliverance from this frustration (v. 24; 8:23). He distinguishes between his “mind,” which aims at obedience, and his “flesh,” which continues to sin (v. 25). All of these observations show that Paul is describing his experience as a new man in Christ."

Amazing -- One commentary acknowledges four possible interpretations of the passage in question, yet you offer one and consider it to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Continuing...

"Paul is actually describing a profound conflict that every Christian finds inherent in his life in Christ: Christ dwells in him (Gal. 2:20), yet sin also dwells in him (vv. 17, 20). Perfect conformity to God’s will is at present out of his reach. Salvation has “already” and “not yet” dimensions."

Perhaps this commentator's eloquent words will make more sense to you than mine have -- because this is all that I was trying to say, concerning our previous discussion on Sin.

"It is important to remember that Paul is still discussing the role of the law. He highlights the frustrations of the present Christian experience simply to show how, for Christians as for Jews, God’s good law provokes, exposes, and condemns sin without either being tainted by it or bringing deliverance from it."

Are we at least getting closer to aligned at this point? If not, I'd like to revert back to where I was a few posts ago; ceasing this communication between you and I.

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

Since you still fail to understand why it is that I choose not to entertain your points, recall this:

This was our first interaction, and you completely missed the underlying purpose for my bringing Romans 7 to the conversation. I have tried, on several occasions, to imply that there are various interpretations of scripture -- interpretations which have been argued for centuries. Why is it that while theologians continue to debate, you refuse to debate -- is it because you know that which cannot be known?

To hold you to the same standard you hold me, I believe your interpretation of Romans 7 is incomplete and, thus, inaccurate:

A commentary on Romans 7 from the Reformation Study Bible:

"7:14–25 The sudden change to the present tense in vv. 15–25, by contrast with the statements describing the past in vv. 7–13, raises the question whether Paul is now describing his present experience. A variety of interpretations exists, including the following: (a) Paul is describing the unregenerate person or perhaps the Jew in particular from the standpoint of the gospel; (b) Paul is describing a Christian in an unnatural and unhealthy spiritual condition, one failing to draw on the indwelling Spirit’s resources; (c) Paul is describing the transitional experience, possibly his own, of one who has been awakened to his true spiritual need, but has not yet entered a full experience of justification by faith; (d) Paul is describing himself and Christians generally who, although in Christ and free from the condemnation of the law, do not yet perfectly fulfill the requirements of the law. The last view is the most probable interpretation. It accounts for Paul’s shift to the present tense while his theme in vv. 7–25 (God’s holy law stimulating and exposing sin) continues, and for the presence in Paul’s self-analysis here of elements found only in persons who have been united with the risen Christ to new life in the Spirit (6:4–11; 7:6; 8:4–9). Paul is aware that God’s law is “spiritual” (v. 14). He actually delights in God’s law, desiring to fulfill it perfectly (vv. 15–23), and he is distressed that sin in him opposes that desire. He is grateful at the prospect of future deliverance from this frustration (v. 24; 8:23). He distinguishes between his “mind,” which aims at obedience, and his “flesh,” which continues to sin (v. 25). All of these observations show that Paul is describing his experience as a new man in Christ."

Amazing -- One commentary acknowledges four possible interpretations of the passage in question, yet you offer one and consider it to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Continuing...

"Paul is actually describing a profound conflict that every Christian finds inherent in his life in Christ: Christ dwells in him (Gal. 2:20), yet sin also dwells in him (vv. 17, 20). Perfect conformity to God’s will is at present out of his reach. Salvation has “already” and “not yet” dimensions."

Perhaps this commentator's eloquent words will make more sense to you than mine have -- because this is all that I was trying to say, concerning our previous discussion on Sin.

"It is important to remember that Paul is still discussing the role of the law. He highlights the frustrations of the present Christian experience simply to show how, for Christians as for Jews, God’s good law provokes, exposes, and condemns sin without either being tainted by it or bringing deliverance from it."

Are we at least getting closer to aligned at this point? If not, I'd like to revert back to where I was a few posts ago; ceasing this communication between you and I.

No. In Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin. However, in Romans 8:2, Paul says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is double minded or has a split personality, we know that Paul here is speaking from two different perspectives. In the bulk of Romans 7 he is speaking from his experience as a Jew who kept the Law (before he was a Christian). At the end of Romans 7 and in Romans 8, Paul is speaking about his experience as a Christian.

Todd_TruthSeeker · Jul 31, 2015

BenFTW said:

Most christians are not aware that the New Testament was written in Aramaic, and not Greek, as is commonly taught in most seminaries around the world. When the church came under persecution in the 1st century, it divided into what is known as the eastern church (which remained with Aramaic), and the western church, which expanded into Europe and had translations of the Aramaic into Greek.

There is much proof of this if you seek the matter out. The English from Aramaic is known as the Peshitta (Aramaic for "straight"), and I have two, and I favor the Lamsa translation, who spoke fluent Aramaic, and as they claim in the eastern church, they still speak and write the same way they did 2000 years ago.

The original Aramaic uses the word "repent", regarding Judas.

Now if you have to start rationalizing to get to your conclusion, well then the discussion ends promptly. If we do not accept was is written, and instead wriggle and massage things to get to the conclusion one desires, what's the point in reading the scriptures?

Judas' case has all the requisite criteria to discuss the question adequately:

1) We have an individual who committed suicide. A requisite item for this discussion.

2) From Jesus' speaking, "It would be better if that man had never been born", we believe this to mean that he suffers damnation. The person who committed suicide, we know the end result, as given by Jesus.

Is it possible that he is in heaven, but has to suffer the shame forever among the saints that he was Christ's traitor, as an alternative to going to hell? I do not think that's a possibility. We have all betrayed Jesus in various ways, including Peter.

3) He repented just minutes before his suicide, AND he attempted to make restitution.

Thus, containing all the necessary elements to discuss "does suicide = hell" discussion.

Again, I would urge you all to stick with what is written, not lean to your own understanding, and think that the words written in the scriptures mean something other than what they are.

WoundedWarrior · Jul 31, 2015

Jason0047 said:

No? So the commentary is wrong? Those theologians and historians and teachers with years of study -are - all - wrong???

You're right, they're wrong? How did you gain a clearer understanding of ancient languages than those who have gone before you and dedicated their lives to this purpose?

VCO · Jul 31, 2015

Jason0047 said:

☝t<><

You obviously only have the Charismatic impression of what we TEACH AND BELIEVE,
whereas you actually understand very little about what the
"Once Saved, Always Saved" Doctrine really teaches.

The Doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved", comes DIRECTLY FROM THE TEACHING OF JOHN.
And JOHN said it so simply that ANYONE can understand it.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might
be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

THAT IS ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.

COUPLE THAT WITH:

John 10:28-30 (NKJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And I give them eternal life,
{It is not ETERNAL if you can lose it.}
and they shall never perish;
{Do you think JESUS lied when HE said NEVER?"}
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
{ANYONE means not even SELF.}
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and
no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
{NO ONE means not even SELF.}
[SUP]30 [/SUP] I and My Father are one."
{NOT IN PURPOSE, but literally in REALITY.}

CONSIDER ALL THAT AND YOU COME UP WITH ROCK SOLID PROOF
THAT "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED" IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

What is the problem then? Why do so many appear to have lost their Salvation?

The Problem is scalp hunting Preachers, who are EAGER to add more scalps to their belt,
especially among the Charismatics, who have LOWERED the standard to what genuinely
constitutes BEING SAVED.

I cringe every time I hear a TV preacher say:
"Just admit that JESUS is your SAVIOR and you are SAVED."
THAT IS A LIE FROM THE DEVIL. Even the DEMONS admit who He is.

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALLY SAY:

John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become
children of God, to those who believe in His name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God. {That is born again and it has NOTHING to do with tongues.}

RECEIVED HIM AS WHAT?

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord,
{which means surrender to HIM as MASTER.} continue to live in Him,

HOW DO I VALIDATE THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES and MEANS WE NEED TO
RECEIVE HIM AS LORD, INSTEAD OF JUST SAVIOR?

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord,
{It is not a CONFESSION if you have not already submitted to HIM as LORD,
meaning MASTER, in your heart. IT SAYS CONFESS not just PROFESS.}
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,
and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

{NOTICE: THERE is absolutely NO LINK to speaking in tongues nor the watered down false gospel of "just accept Him as SAVIOR", like so many Charismatics and other preachers SAY, especially those on TV. THAT IS A WATERED DOWN GOSPEL THAT DOES NOT SAVE. Submission to HIS LORDSHIP is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT, in that HE enables us to do the will of the FATHER, after HE has birthed our once dead human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE. THEN AND ONLY THEN can you say as a CONFESSION, "JESUS IS MY LORD!"}

THAT IS WHY in this current age, SO MANY APPEAR to lose their SALVATION; when the TRUTH is they followed a watered down GOSPEL that cannot SAVE in the first place. They only PROFESSED to KNOW JESUS; while genuinely "KNOWING HIM" involves an inner personal LOVE relationship where we SUBMIT TO HIM AS MASTER by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT. MANY want a SAVIOR, while remaining "lord" of their own LIVES; BUT ONLY A FEW WANT A LORD WHO IS MASTER OF THEIR LIVES.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter through the narrow gate;
for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction,
and there are many who enter through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life,
and there are few who find it.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom
of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
{They have NO submission to HIS LORDSHIP.}
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
in Your name, cast out demons in Your name,
and done many wonders in Your name?' {That includes charismatic tongues.}
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;
{That inner personal LOVE relationship where we submit to HIM as LORD,
by the power of the Holy Spirit.}
depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

TOO MANY PREACHERS OF TODAY TEACH A WATERED DOWN GOSPEL.

I apologize if that offends you, but I HAVE TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.

VCO · Jul 31, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

Ephesians 4:2-3 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Philippians 4:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

Jesus said beware of the scribes.

He also said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it.

Also, do you know how to explain the contradiction of Romans 7:14 and Romans 8:2 that arises because of your belief?

Are we free from sin?

Or are we sold under sin?

Jason0047 · Jul 31, 2015

VCO said:

☝t<><

You obviously only have the Charismatic impression of what we TEACH AND BELIEVE,
whereas you actually understand very little about what the
"Once Saved, Always Saved" Doctrine really teaches.

The Doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved", comes DIRECTLY FROM THE TEACHING OF JOHN.
And JOHN said it so simply that ANYONE can understand it.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us,
they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might
be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

THAT IS ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.

COUPLE THAT WITH:

John 10:28-30 (NKJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And I give them eternal life,
{It is not ETERNAL if you can lose it.}
and they shall never perish;
{Do you think JESUS lied when HE said NEVER?"}
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
{ANYONE means not even SELF.}
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and
no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
{NO ONE means not even SELF.}
[SUP]30 [/SUP] I and My Father are one."
{NOT IN PURPOSE, but literally in REALITY.}

CONSIDER ALL THAT AND YOU COME UP WITH ROCK SOLID PROOF
THAT "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED" IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

What is the problem then? Why do so many appear to have lost their Salvation?

The Problem is scalp hunting Preachers, who are EAGER to add more scalps to their belt,
especially among the Charismatics, who have LOWERED the standard to what genuinely
constitutes BEING SAVED.

I cringe every time I hear a TV preacher say:
"Just admit that JESUS is your SAVIOR and you are SAVED."
THAT IS A LIE FROM THE DEVIL. Even the DEMONS admit who He is.

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALLY SAY:

John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become
children of God, to those who believe in His name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God. {That is born again and it has NOTHING to do with tongues.}

RECEIVED HIM AS WHAT?

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord,
{which means surrender to HIM as MASTER.} continue to live in Him,

HOW DO I VALIDATE THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES and MEANS WE NEED TO
RECEIVE HIM AS LORD, INSTEAD OF JUST SAVIOR?

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord,
{It is not a CONFESSION if you have not already submitted to HIM as LORD,
meaning MASTER, in your heart. IT SAYS CONFESS not just PROFESS.}
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,
and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

{NOTICE: THERE is absolutely NO LINK to speaking in tongues nor the watered down false gospel of "just accept Him as SAVIOR", like so many Charismatics and other preachers SAY, especially those on TV. THAT IS A WATERED DOWN GOSPEL THAT DOES NOT SAVE. Submission to HIS LORDSHIP is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT, in that HE enables us to do the will of the FATHER, after HE has birthed our once dead human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE. THEN AND ONLY THEN can you say as a CONFESSION, "JESUS IS MY LORD!"}

THAT IS WHY in this current age, SO MANY APPEAR to lose their SALVATION; when the TRUTH is they followed a watered down GOSPEL that cannot SAVE in the first place. They only PROFESSED to KNOW JESUS; while genuinely "KNOWING HIM" involves an inner personal LOVE relationship where we SUBMIT TO HIM AS MASTER by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT. MANY want a SAVIOR, while remaining "lord" of their own LIVES; BUT ONLY A FEW WANT A LORD WHO IS MASTER OF THEIR LIVES.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter through the narrow gate;
for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction,
and there are many who enter through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life,
and there are few who find it.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom
of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
{They have NO submission to HIS LORDSHIP.}
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
in Your name, cast out demons in Your name,
and done many wonders in Your name?' {That includes charismatic tongues.}
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;
{That inner personal LOVE relationship where we submit to HIM as LORD,
by the power of the Holy Spirit.}
depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

TOO MANY PREACHERS OF TODAY TEACH A WATERED DOWN GOSPEL.

I apologize if that offends you, but I HAVE TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.

Let's try this again. Who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? It surely cannot be unbelievers (or false professors of the faith who are also unbelievers). If one is an unbeliever, it does not matter how many they forgive. They will still be unsaved. So Jesus is talking to believers.

Suicide=hell?

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