If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[ServantStrike]

No. A believer cannot do evil and still be saved. Paul is talking from the perspective a Jew who obeyed the Law before he was a Christian in the bulk of Romans 7. At the end of Romans 7 and in Romans 8 is where Paul talks about his experience as a Christian. For if not, then Paul would be contradicting himself. For in Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin; And in Romans 8:2 Paul says he is free from sin. So which is it? Is he free from sin or sold under sin? Are Christians really sold under sin? I don't think so. Jesus came to set the captives free.

Then we're all in quite a bit of trouble.

Every sin is willful, every single one.

I'd better not commit a sin while driving, if I have a car accident and don't have time to repent, I'm destined for eternal damnation. All of those years of attempting to live for Christ are all wasted in one unintentional foul word before a head on collision.

 

[dcontroversal]

Guys, I have been reading various OSAS threads here almost continuously since I first joined CC. The argument will never be won because people's own perception of God's word varies. People quote what they want to read into it both from the OT and NT and so it goes on...and on...and on...and on.

Give it up guys, there are so many other topics of equal importance! Jesus said "love one another as I have loved you". Amen to that.

Love and truth go hand in hand....there can be no love if the truth is not present and at the end of the day the word of God is absolute in it's teaching and the truth can be known by the verb tenses, context and the very definition of the words inspired by God.............

 

[Gozinia]

Amen DCon, which is the reason Jesus said in Love and Truth..."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

 

[PopClick]

If you are an OSAS Proponent, then I have some questions for you that I would like answered. It appears the problem here on the forums is that many say that they are not in support of "sin" or in doing evil or in "Easy believism." Hopefully answering these questions will help us to understand where you are coming from.

Question #1. Can you be out of fellowship and still be saved?
(If you say "yes", then how is that not a condoning of sin? If you say "no", do you realize that others here do say, "yes" to this type of question? Why are they not corrected or reproved?)

Question #2. Can you die in unrepentant sin (like lying, lusting, and hating) and still be saved?
(If you say "yes", how is that not a condoning of sin?).

Question #3. Was not the first lie in the Garden by the devil saying that Eve will not die similar to the OSAS proponent today saying they will not die?
(If you disagree, please explain why).

Question #4. How is saying you cannot stop sinning in line with Jesus telling the woman caught in the act of adultery, to: "Sin no more."?

Question #5. How can all future sin be forgiven you if you have to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin?
(Where in the 1st epistle of John does it specifically state that 1 John 1:9 is not dealing with salvation?)

Question #6. Do you believe the good fruit of the believer is from God or of the believer?
(If you believe it is from God and another believer believes the same thing, then how can you accuse them of Works Salvationism when they do not believe that?).

Question #7. What is better? To do good or to do evil? Do you think God wants us to live Holy as an example of being good?

Question #8. How do you uphold goodness or morality with your belief in OSAS? Do you believe the Prodigal Son was still saved when he went Prodigal?

Question #9. How can God being our Father condone his children to sin if you would not condone or allow your child to sin?

Question #10. How can a believer be truly born again, changed, and different if they are not really changed and different from the world?

You know what I think of when I read these questions?

Can you take a cookie from the cookie jar without your mommy killing you? If yes, then you are condoning stealing. How about lying? Can you lie without your daddy whacking off your head with a chainsaw? Yes? Then what's to stop you from lying?

Sin has consequences for a believer. Just not the horribly grave one you are trying to assign to it.

 

[atwhatcost]

Pssst. Posthuman didn't play the first part of your origami fortune telling game. Why are you torturing him with your second part anyway? Seems unfair.

My apologize. I was a little behind in my reading. Posthuman did play the game. Sorry.

 

[atwhatcost]

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. He is long suffering towards them. I am trying to walk in the Lord's footsteps and be patient with people as I tell them the truth of the Scriptures.

Oh, and to answer your question: No, I was not kidnapped by a cult or anyone. Jesus is the one who stole my heart and it is to Him I live (according to His Word).

Meh. Your god sits back while you will to not perish. Not scriptural, but there's the game.

I really do hope the true God reveals this to you.

 

[posthuman]

My apologize. I was a little behind in my reading. Posthuman did play the game. Sorry.

well you were pretty much right - i didn't play the game, not really. i didn't follow the rules; i just toyed with the game pieces.

here's a more advanced origami cross for us to all to learn after we mastered the last one:



[video=youtube;S3huO4WLZXI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3huO4WLZXI[/video]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I'll answer you questions, but not respond to your "commentary" after each one, Jason, because each comment you make is overcome by the true understanding of the Gospel

Question #1. Can you be out of fellowship and still be saved?

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 certainly proves biblical that it can be, when it is related to "the rest of the story" in 2 Corinthians 2:2-7. You don't appear to be able to grasp that nothing you do is sufficient to earn your salvation, or maintain it. You are still flesh, and the flesh is sinful, and will not go to heaven. As long as you live in the flesh, you awaken to every day facing a choice of death or life -- the death of the flesh, or the life of the Spirit, Who (presumably) abides in you as a believer.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates God revives the "old man." Instead you are a new (spiritual) creation. Hence, the choice. The new spiritual self does not sin. It is incapable of it. When you live in the Spirit of life, you are perfect. But we never live there nonstop. We revert to living in our "death of the flesh," and the body is already condemned. But not the soul, which is sanctified by its union with the Spirit through the human spirit.

Hebrews 4, NASB
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.​

The word of God, interpreted through the Holy Spirit, literally frees the soul from its bondage to sin and death, exposing it to the law of Spirit and life. Thus, what the flesh does is not able to severe the work of Christ from the life of the believer. To be sure, sin has consequences even for the believer, in this life. But nothing can snatch the believer from the hands of Christ, or the Father. Not even the believer him/herself.

Question #2. Can you die in unrepentant sin (like lying, lusting, and hating) and still be saved?

Yes. For the same reasons expressed above.

Question #3. Was not the first lie in the Garden by the devil saying that Eve will not die similar to the OSAS proponent today saying they will not die?

No. The devil denied spiritual death of the unbeliever, which is what God meant when He said "You will surely die."

Question #4. How is saying you cannot stop sinning in line with Jesus telling the woman caught in the act of adultery, to: "Sin no more."?

You don't understand what we say. No one says "You cannot stop sinning." Because you can, if you manage to live full-time in the life of the Spirit. But no one can. They will relapse. If you look at the life of the believer, however, over the span of time, you will see that the sins become fewer, they become less intentional, they become less in severity. That is because sanctification takes time -- a lifetime. And no one ever gets it perfect. Only Jesus did -- but then again, He was God. We are not.

Question #5. How can all future sin be forgiven you if you have to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin?

That represents a misunderstanding of why we confess. It is not to "cleanse" ourselves. That was done at the cross, and it was applied when we believed. Confession is to restore the broken fellowship -- sin being able to interrupt our communion with God, not because He turns His back on us, because we, through the guilt we feel over our sin, turn our backs on Him. Confession clears our conscience and enables us to "clear the air" between us and God and get on with our lives. It is an acknowledgment of our inability to live perfectly, and enables us to stop beating ou9rselves up over that inability.

Question #6. Do you believe the good fruit of the believer is from God or of the believer?

God, the Holy Spirit. Our best efforts are but filthy rags.

Question #7. What is better? To do good or to do evil? Do you think God wants us to live Holy as an example of being good?

Question from ignorance of what you argue against, i.e., eternal security. What God wants from us, ideally, and what we are capable of, practically, are two different things, and God knows this. Otherwise, sanctification would not be progressive and life-long.

Question #8. How do you uphold goodness or morality with your belief in OSAS? Do you believe the Prodigal Son was still saved when he went Prodigal?

That's two questions (as have been others I've answered, but I've ignored the second among others because they are asked provocatively rather than for seeking knowledge). However, I'll answer both here.

#8(a): Eternal security is the assurance that we are saved now, and our good works "which God prepared beforehand" (Ephesians 2:10) are done to glorify Him and give Him love, adoration, and, foremost, our very lives, because of what He has done for us.

#8(b): Obviously the Prodigal was still saved. His father called him "son" when he returned. He was never outside the family. He was never disowned. He was never really in doubt of where home was. So it is with the Christian. Nothing he can do will separate him from the love of God.

Question #9. How can God being our Father condone his children to sin if you would not condone or allow your child to sin?

You utterly and completely fail to grasp the father/son relationship that illustrates God's love for the believer. I love my kids. They're adults now, but I never disowned them because of what they did. I lovingly chastised them. I didn't have to adopt them after their misbehaviors, because they didn't separate themselves from the family. Disappointed, yes. Angered, on occasion. Saddened, many times. But I never filed a court document to severe our relationship, and nothing they ever did caused me to decide they had severed themselves form my love. I always loved them, and a couple times that was extremely difficult. And I'm just a man. Imagine how truly foreign it would be for God to consider "disowning" someone for whom His Son died!

Question #10. How can a believer be truly born again, changed, and different if they are not really changed and different from the world?

The believer feels regret and guilt for his/her sin, whereas before he/she never considered such emotions. The believer wants desperately to restore God's confidence in him/her, without realizing that confidence is never lost. The believer wants to change, wants the sin to be removed, wants to grow in Christ.

Please explain to me how you can characterize this as "not really changed and different"? These last two questions convince me more than ever, Jason -- and I say this in love -- that you need Christ in your life. You do not know Him. If you did, such questions would never even occur to you.

 

[ServantStrike]

well you were pretty much right - i didn't play the game, not really. i didn't follow the rules; i just toyed with the game pieces.

here's a more advanced origami cross for us to all to learn after we mastered the last one:

You know I always liked the celtic cross. It's like a fancier version of a normal cross.

I have an iron one over my bed... it's well secured though as if it falls on me in the night... curtains for me. I hope I don't sin before an earth quake... the cross is well secured but you never know.

 

[Jason0047]

Then we're all in quite a bit of trouble.

Every sin is willful, every single one.

I'd better not commit a sin while driving, if I have a car accident and don't have time to repent, I'm destined for eternal damnation. All of those years of attempting to live for Christ are all wasted in one unintentional foul word before a head on collision.

Yes, while driving you have to be fearful of the LORD if you sin and if your not sorrowful over it to repent because we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if we are not to fear?

 

[Jason0047]

You know I always liked the celtic cross. It's like a fancier version of a normal cross.

I have an iron one over my bed... it's well secured though as if it falls on me in the night... curtains for me. I hope I don't sin before an earth quake... the cross is well secured but you never know.

I believe the circile added to the cross (Hence making it a celtic cross) is pagan in origin. We can observe a pattern of false religions in the past and compare their false artwork and match it up with those who falsely worship today with such false icons. Sun worship is popular amongst the pagans thru out time and such symbols can be seen in such false relgions as Catholicism (even though they do not worship the sun). In fact, the Celtic cross is even used by the Catholic Church. So if that is the case, why would I want to associate with something that they use? Anyways, here is a picture of the circle (sun) brought down below the cross.

 

[Jason0047]

I'll answer you questions, but not respond to your "commentary" after each one, Jason, because each comment you make is overcome by the true understanding of the Gospel

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 certainly proves biblical that it can be, when it is related to "the rest of the story" in 2 Corinthians 2:2-7. You don't appear to be able to grasp that nothing you do is sufficient to earn your salvation, or maintain it. You are still flesh, and the flesh is sinful, and will not go to heaven. As long as you live in the flesh, you awaken to every day facing a choice of death or life -- the death of the flesh, or the life of the Spirit, Who (presumably) abides in you as a believer.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates God revives the "old man." Instead you are a new (spiritual) creation. Hence, the choice. The new spiritual self does not sin. It is incapable of it. When you live in the Spirit of life, you are perfect. But we never live there nonstop. We revert to living in our "death of the flesh," and the body is already condemned. But not the soul, which is sanctified by its union with the Spirit through the human spirit.

Hebrews 4, NASB
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.​

The word of God, interpreted through the Holy Spirit, literally frees the soul from its bondage to sin and death, exposing it to the law of Spirit and life. Thus, what the flesh does is not able to severe the work of Christ from the life of the believer. To be sure, sin has consequences even for the believer, in this life. But nothing can snatch the believer from the hands of Christ, or the Father. Not even the believer him/herself.

Yes. For the same reasons expressed above.

No. The devil denied spiritual death of the unbeliever, which is what God meant when He said "You will surely die."

You don't understand what we say. No one says "You cannot stop sinning." Because you can, if you manage to live full-time in the life of the Spirit. But no one can. They will relapse. If you look at the life of the believer, however, over the span of time, you will see that the sins become fewer, they become less intentional, they become less in severity. That is because sanctification takes time -- a lifetime. And no one ever gets it perfect. Only Jesus did -- but then again, He was God. We are not.

That represents a misunderstanding of why we confess. It is not to "cleanse" ourselves. That was done at the cross, and it was applied when we believed. Confession is to restore the broken fellowship -- sin being able to interrupt our communion with God, not because He turns His back on us, because we, through the guilt we feel over our sin, turn our backs on Him. Confession clears our conscience and enables us to "clear the air" between us and God and get on with our lives. It is an acknowledgment of our inability to live perfectly, and enables us to stop beating ou9rselves up over that inability.

God, the Holy Spirit. Our best efforts are but filthy rags.

Question from ignorance of what you argue against, i.e., eternal security. What God wants from us, ideally, and what we are capable of, practically, are two different things, and God knows this. Otherwise, sanctification would not be progressive and life-long.

That's two questions (as have been others I've answered, but I've ignored the second among others because they are asked provocatively rather than for seeking knowledge). However, I'll answer both here.

#8(a): Eternal security is the assurance that we are saved now, and our good works "which God prepared beforehand" (Ephesians 2:10) are done to glorify Him and give Him love, adoration, and, foremost, our very lives, because of what He has done for us.

#8(b): Obviously the Prodigal was still saved. His father called him "son" when he returned. He was never outside the family. He was never disowned. He was never really in doubt of where home was. So it is with the Christian. Nothing he can do will separate him from the love of God.

You utterly and completely fail to grasp the father/son relationship that illustrates God's love for the believer. I love my kids. They're adults now, but I never disowned them because of what they did. I lovingly chastised them. I didn't have to adopt them after their misbehaviors, because they didn't separate themselves from the family. Disappointed, yes. Angered, on occasion. Saddened, many times. But I never filed a court document to severe our relationship, and nothing they ever did caused me to decide they had severed themselves form my love. I always loved them, and a couple times that was extremely difficult. And I'm just a man. Imagine how truly foreign it would be for God to consider "disowning" someone for whom His Son died!

The believer feels regret and guilt for his/her sin, whereas before he/she never considered such emotions. The believer wants desperately to restore God's confidence in him/her, without realizing that confidence is never lost. The believer wants to change, wants the sin to be removed, wants to grow in Christ.

Please explain to me how you can characterize this as "not really changed and different"? These last two questions convince me more than ever, Jason -- and I say this in love -- that you need Christ in your life. You do not know Him. If you did, such questions would never even occur to you.

Claiming that I need Christ in my life does not make such a statement true. What is the real test or way that we can have an assurance of knowing Christ? Read 1 John 2:3. It says he that keeps his commandments knows him; And 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. Also, see John 14:23 and John 14:15. But thank you for answering my questions. When I have time later, I will try and answer in love with Scripture in return.

May God bless you.
And may His love shine upon you.

 

[posthuman]

I believe the circile added to the cross (Hence making it a celtic cross) is pagan in origin.

you know i believe the English language is pagan in it's origin. tower of Babel et al.

we can always find something evil to make accusations about, if we are always focused on the wrong, rather than the right.

but i know a God who has taken captive all things and made them servants of His glory.

 

[Jason0047]

I mean, most people today think Jesus is white and European looking even. But this is from Catholicism yet again (And their artwork).

Jesus was Jewish and mid-tone in color and he had Jewish features. However, most just have beliefs that are not even in the Bible today.

For does one honestly think they can really get away with doing evil and it being acceptable to God?

How on Earth do you know about good versus evil when you watch a movie or turn on the news? Do you ever think that an axe murderer is saved secretly by Jesus? No. Of course not. We know that such an evil is really bad. Well, God has a really bad list of sins that he does not find acceptable. Paul mentions them many times. He says be not deceived. The unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Then Paul lists such sins such as hate, murder, adultery, theft, lying, and drunkenness.

Be not deceived.

Those were Paul's words.

 

[Jason0047]

you know i believe the English language is pagan in it's origin. tower of Babel et al.

we can always find something evil to make accusations about, if we are always focused on the wrong, rather than the right.

but i know a God who has taken captive all things and made them servants of His glory.

No, dear sir. Who confounded the languages and made them different? God did. Yes, English came about much later, but it was God who made the different languages at the Tower of Babel and it was God that brought understanding to all the different languages in the church in Acts chapter 2.

 

[ServantStrike]

well you were pretty much right - i didn't play the game, not really. i didn't follow the rules; i just toyed with the game pieces.

here's a more advanced origami cross for us to all to learn after we mastered the last one:

View attachment 129712

Neat!

Mine came out looking like a crane though... not the bird either... an actual crane.

 

[Magenta]

Then we're all in quite a bit of trouble.
Every sin is willful, every single one.
I'd better not commit a sin while driving, if I have a car accident and don't have time to repent, I'm destined for eternal damnation. All of those years of attempting to live for Christ are all wasted in one unintentional foul word before a head on collision.

It can't be unintentional and willful at the same time...

 

[ServantStrike]

Yes, while driving you have to be fearful of the LORD if you sin and if your not sorrowful over it to repent because we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if we are not to fear?

I pray for people who cut me off when I'm driving. I pray for God to bless them and their families.

I do try not to sin, saved or not.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

I mean, most people today think Jesus is white and European looking even. But this is from Catholicism yet again (And their artwork).

You have a source for this assumption?

 

[ServantStrike]

It can't be unintentional and willful at the same time...

You are correct. Very astute observation. My choice of wording was not a good one.

There is a difference between sinning with one's hand held high and sinning in the heat of the moment. I've done both though!

It is good that I am saved so I turn and repent of my ways when I stray.