If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[elf3]

It can't be unintentional and willful at the same time...

I think what he means is that we are sinful by nature so we have a natural condition to sin. But being a Christian we don't willfully sin so it would be unintentional. For example I don't swear but sometimes I unintentionally swear. So because of my sin nature the "word" came out but in normal everyday talk I don't swear. I think that might be what he means.

 

[Magenta]

You are correct. Very astute observation. My choice of wording was not a good one.

Thank you, you are a gentleman to admit your mistake

There is a difference between sinning with one's hand held high and sinning in the heat of the moment. I've done both though!

Ah, I see, the difference being premeditation?

It is good that I am saved so I turn and repent of my ways when I stray.

Amen.

 

[ServantStrike]

I believe the circile added to the cross (Hence making it a celtic cross) is pagan in origin. We can observe a pattern of false religions in the past and compare their false artwork and match it up with those who falsely worship today with such false icons. Sun worship is popular amongst the pagans thru out time and such symbols can be seen in such false relgions as Catholicism (even though they do not worship the sun). In fact, the Celtic cross is even used by the Catholic Church. So if that is the case, why would I want to associate with something that they use? Anyways, here is a picture of the circle (sun) brought down below the cross.

I'm well aware. There was quite a bit of paganism that slipped into Christianity under Rome.

You're talking to a guy who agonized over purchasing a Scofield KJV because he didn't want someone else's notes clouding his judgment. Plus I don't agree with Scofield on some points, but I digress.

I think what he means is that we are sinful by nature so we have a natural condition to sin. But being a Christian we don't willfully sin so it would be unintentional. For example I don't swear but sometimes I unintentionally swear. So because of my sin nature the "word" came out but in normal everyday talk I don't swear. I think that might be what he means.

You are correct. Although in my case I have sinned intentionally. The difference is between something that happens in the heat of the moment and in something that you think/pray about and do any way. Human beings are pretty wretched aren't they?


Before the legalists can interject. Hebrews 10
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[elf3]

Part of the problem Jason is that because someone doesn't agree with you they cannot be a Christian. Because I believe in OSAS in your mind I am commiting a major sin against God. My best friend does not believe in OSAS but yet I know they are saved by the blood of Christ. It is not your unbelief in OSAS that will save you as my belief in OSAS will not save me. You have a major mixed up theology if you believe anything besides or added too the blood of Christ will save you from eternal hell.

 

[Mitspa]

The "willful" sin of Hebrews 10...is the sin of unbelief...returning to the law..rejecting the Spirit of Grace

The book is called "Hebrews" the whole point of the book is to warn the "Hebrews" from turning from faith and grace back to the law of Moses....any sincere believer ...pray about what Im saying and God will show you what I am saying is true.

 

[Magenta]

Human beings are pretty wretched aren't they?

Ugh, and again I say unto you, ugh.

 

[ServantStrike]

The "willful" sin of Hebrews 10...is the sin of unbelief...returning to the law..rejecting the Spirit of Grace

The book is called "Hebrews" the whole point of the book is to warn the "Hebrews" from turning from faith and grace back to the law of Moses....any sincere believer ...pray about what Im saying and God will show you what I am saying is true.

I probably should have qualified that statement better shouldn't I?

You are correct. As I pointed out, I had to post it before a legalist used it against me

But I have indeed sinned willfully. I have not always felt immediately compelled to turn back either, but God will not allow one of His to remain in that situation.



The main problem I see with dismissing OSAS is all of the confused doctrine that comes along with it. That verse in Hebrews is often used to support the claim that you aren't always saved. It makes no sense to me, as it would indicate that God would allow one of us to be redeemed, only to lose us from His hands again. It's a contradiction from what Christ Himself said.

Look at this lovely verse in John 10
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.

Hey, that verse also shoots down the whole non-Trinitarian argument too doesn't it?

 

[elf3]

I probably should have qualified that statement better shouldn't I?

You are correct. As I pointed out, I had to post it before a legalist used it against me

But I have indeed sinned willfully. I have not always felt immediately compelled to turn back either, but God will not allow one of His to remain in that situation.



The main problem I see with dismissing OSAS is all of the confused doctrine that comes along with it. That verse in Hebrews is often used to support the claim that you aren't always saved. It makes no sense to me, as it would indicate that God would allow one of us to be redeemed, only to lose us from His hands again. It's a contradiction from what Christ Himself said.

Look at this lovely verse in John 10
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.

Hey, that verse also shoots down the whole non-Trinitarian argument too doesn't it?

If OSAS is not true then God lied in verse 28. It also means that God is not powerful enough to protect His "flock". Not to mention that it would mean He wasn't too worried about us if we could just "slip" through His fingers.

 

[elf3]

Oh and don't worry too much about legalism because the legalistic argument is circular in motion. They will always either end up at the starting point without answering or contradict themselves every single time. This has been seen many times here on CC.

 

[Mitspa]

I probably should have qualified that statement better shouldn't I?

You are correct. As I pointed out, I had to post it before a legalist used it against me

But I have indeed sinned willfully. I have not always felt immediately compelled to turn back either, but God will not allow one of His to remain in that situation.



The main problem I see with dismissing OSAS is all of the confused doctrine that comes along with it. That verse in Hebrews is often used to support the claim that you aren't always saved. It makes no sense to me, as it would indicate that God would allow one of us to be redeemed, only to lose us from His hands again. It's a contradiction from what Christ Himself said.

Look at this lovely verse in John 10
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.

Hey, that verse also shoots down the whole non-Trinitarian argument too doesn't it?

Sure...our conscience becomes defiled when we "willfully" sin..and that causes us a sense of separation from the Lord and the life that is in the Spirit...The Lord will correct us if we will not correct ourselves....but Heb 10 is not speaking of giving ourselves to sinful lust in the sense that legalist would understand...legalism itself is a carnal lust.

 

[ServantStrike]

Sure...our conscience becomes defiled when we "willfully" sin..and that causes us a sense of separation from the Lord and the life that is in the Spirit...The Lord will correct us if we will not correct ourselves....but Heb 10 is not speaking of giving ourselves to sinful lust in the sense that legalist would understand...legalism itself is a carnal lust.

This is true.

Like in this verse in Luke 11
45Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. 46And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. 47Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers


That's not a KJV thing either, lawyers is the preferred word in most of the translations I can pull up. Here it would of course mean teachers of the law, since this is a repetition of matthew 23

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Ugh, and again I say unto you, ugh.

Romans 3:10 (although this is also in Ecclesiastes and the Psalms)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


You know, the BDF is fun in small doses!

 

[PopClick]

I believe the circile added to the cross (Hence making it a celtic cross) is pagan in origin. We can observe a pattern of false religions in the past and compare their false artwork and match it up with those who falsely worship today with such false icons. Sun worship is popular amongst the pagans thru out time and such symbols can be seen in such false relgions as Catholicism (even though they do not worship the sun). In fact, the Celtic cross is even used by the Catholic Church. So if that is the case, why would I want to associate with something that they use? Anyways, here is a picture of the circle (sun) brought down below the cross.

I'm a little concerned that the name Jason may have pagan origins. Something about the goddess of healing and the Argonauts and... stuff. I think you ought to look into it.

 

[wattie]

Your biological family-

You are born into it.

Christianity-- when you are converted you are born again into God's Family.


okay.. now

There is absolutely NO WAY you can undo your biological connection to your family. Only physical death.

Why would God's Family be different? (And the fact is.. physical death does not sever your connection with God-- unless of course you never got converted)

Why would God.. actually remove your status at being born into His Family?

If He would do this.. His love is LESS than that of your own parents!

He would have a lesser view of family than that of a biological family.


When your dad is doing his job- when you struggle.. rebel etc... he doesn't leave the family! He commits.

Same with mum.. if she is doing her job.. when you struggle.. rebel etc.. she doesn't leave the family! She commits.

That is a functional family and real love.

Of course both mum and dad or one of them, if they were doing there job.. would rebuke and correct the child.

And of course..

God does this with His children!

The analogy is the same.

Even when the child rebels themselves.. and leave the family home.. the biological connection still remains. And the parents are still the parents of the child.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 3:10 (although this is also in Ecclesiastes and the Psalms)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

You know, the BDF is fun in small doses!

I am quite enjoying my time here so far; truly it is like a picnic compared to the last couple of sites I was on over the last eight years. Heh, yes, not one righteous... I was trying to be a bit humorous in my response to you. Human nature really is wretched, I agree. God saved a wretch like me!

 

[tourist]

I'm a little concerned that the name Jason may have pagan origins. Something about the goddess of healing and the Argonauts and... stuff. I think you ought to look into it.

I saw the movie 'Jason and the Argonauts' years ago. I agree, it is pagan. Decent flick though.

 

[ServantStrike]

I am quite enjoying my time here so far; truly it is like a picnic compared to the last couple of sites I was on over the last eight years. Heh, yes, not one righteous... I was trying to be a bit humorous in my response to you. Human nature really is wretched, I agree. God saved a wretch like me!

Indeed.

I always did love that tune.

Your response was quite humorous. I used that verse as a tongue in cheek response. It's a great verse.


I'm reminded of a celtic punk song.

You were faithful at the wedding feast, but now wasted in the road


You know, with all the retching, and wreches and what not. I'd post it but apparently rock music is of satan or something.. I love that debate

 

[psalm6819]

There is no reason to get smart with me; And I am not out to condemn you but to save you by the real power of the gospel in God's Word. For God will only want you to do what is good and right and to promote only that.

You can't save anyone Jason. Jesus does that. Does anyone run to your gospel of condemnation?

I think not.

I am truly sorry that you are afraid of your Abba. That doesn't translate Holy One of Israel or LORD of Hosts,

It means Daddy, childlike. Daddy always corrects and forgives. Daddy doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Daddy always come when you need help. Children are humble, Jason and meek.

You should take your eyes off yourself and look at Daddy.

 

[Jason0047]

Not sure how people can't see it. If God were to allow you to get away with horrible or serious sins, then why doesn't he save everyone who does the same kind of evil? What honestly makes you different than the unbeliever? Just a belief on Jesus? Does it sound like Jesus and the apostles made excuses for sin? For there are only a small set of verses that you can twist that appears to say believers are sinful and yet saved despite their sinfulness. However, the Bible does not say that, though.

God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

If you were to make a list out of the Commands and Teachings in the New Testament, you would see that things are not the way you would like them to be. For there is no such thing as a sin and still be saved doctrine.

 

[Jason0047]

You can't save anyone Jason. Jesus does that. Does anyone run to your gospel of condemnation?

I think not.

I am truly sorry that you are afraid of your Abba. That doesn't translate Holy One of Israel or LORD of Hosts,

It means Daddy, childlike. Daddy always corrects and forgives. Daddy doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Daddy always come when you need help. Children are humble, Jason and meek.

You should take your eyes off yourself and look at Daddy.

Again with the false accusations. Where did I say I would save someone of my own power? Please go back and read what I wrote and get clarity on what I actually said.

 

[dcontroversal]

Not sure how people can't see it. If God were to allow you to get away with horrible or serious sins, then why doesn't he save everyone who does the same kind of evil? What honestly makes you different than the unbeliever? Just a belief on Jesus? Does it sound like Jesus and the apostles made excuses for sin? For there are only a small set of verses that you can twist that appears to say believers are sinful and yet saved despite their sinfulness. However, the Bible does not say that, though.

God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

If you were to make a list out of the Commands and Teachings in the New Testament, you would see that things are not the way you would like them to be. For there is no such thing as a sin and still be saved doctrine.

You lack of reasoning skills go unsurpassed and you have no clue.....Paul said it clearly...Jesus saves sinners of whom I AM CHIEF...not WAS CHIEF...PRESENT TENSE I AM CHIEF....actually the only (no such thing doctrine) is the foolishness which you spew!