If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[Jason0047]

Question #2. Can you die in unrepentant sin (like lying, lusting, and hating) and still be saved?

Yes. For the same reasons expressed above.

What is the point of even accepting God if one is just going to be like the world and unchanged? Do you have a sense of morality? What things are acceptable to you and unacceptable to you as far as right and wrong go? Do you have no moral compass? Do you think God is unjust or unrighteous whereby He will allow you to get away with evil yet He does not let the unbeliever get away with evil? Does that not sound like you are making God out to be a respecter of persons? Does that not sound like you are ignoring God's goodness by allowing your evil or rebellion to slide with no remorse or effort on your part to change?

Paul says,
​

"Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).​

Paul says, and such WERE (Past tense) some of you. Meaning you used to do those types of sins before you became a believer, but you are not supposed to be that way anymore (after having believed).

Paul also essentially says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Most OSAS Proponents I have talked with have either flat out denied certain words of Jesus (as applying to us) and many say living holy is not necessary in being a true child of God.

Question #3. Was not the first lie in the Garden by the devil saying that Eve will not die similar to the OSAS proponent today saying they will not die?

No. The devil denied spiritual death of the unbeliever, which is what God meant when He said "You will surely die."

​

That doesn't make sense. A believer (or person who had fellowship with God) is not an unbeliever if they had a one time moment of unbelief or doubt. Peter was not labeled as an unbeliever, nor was his discipleship revoked because he had a moment of unbelief whereby he could not continue to walk on the water. An unbeliever is somebody who persists in unbelief despite the truth. An unbeliever is someone generally who has never known the LORD or it is someone who has apostasized.

Adam and Eve did not become unbelievers or persist in following a false road of salvation. They had a momentary lapse of falling into committing a sin that would place all of mankind in sin. They died spiritually the very day the LORD said they would. God said, in that day you will die. They didn't die physically. They died spiritually. Remember, there body was not immortal unless they ate of the tree of life. Adam and Eve broke the Commandment of God. They sinned. 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law. That is what they did. They transgressed the Law and the devil lied to them saying they would not die (But they did die). This is the same lie that is being pushed by OSAS proponents today. They are saying you can sin and still be saved. You shall not die. Words that are echoed by the serpent all the way back in the beginning.
​

 

[49]

Jason, I have been following this thread a few days and will not post my belief(s) as I do not feel God or anything pertaining to God is an arguable topic. I do want to ask you one question though...are you perfect and do not sin?

 

[Joidevivre]

Question #8. Do you believe the Prodigal Son was still saved when he went Prodigal?

He was still his father's son. And you know what drew him back? He knew that He was still loved - and would be accepted even as a sinner. In fact, the father ran to meet him half way. He must have been watching.

And so does my heavenly Father do so to me when I wander away. He watches, and once you know His love, you will return to it. All else will seem empty once you know!

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, I have been following this thread a few days and will not post my belief(s) as I do not feel God or anything pertaining to God is an arguable topic. I do want to ask you one question though...are you perfect and do not sin?

One has to first believe those Scriptures (that teach you in how to stop sinning) and learn to apply them properly with the LORD's help in order to stop sinning. This would include myself. I am on the path of righteousness and not sin. The goal is to stop sinning. Have you ever really sat and just meditated on 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and Romans 6:14? Was Jesus lying to the woman caught in the act of adultery when he said to her to.... "sin no more"? Also, it does not matter if nobody on the planet currently keeps God's Word. It is true regardless of what man does. For we know that men's thoughts were evil continually before the global flood destroyed them. Does that sound like God wants you to continually do evil? I say thee not. Also, Jesus said to the Pharisees that he that sins is a slave to sin. Does that sound like Jesus was giving them a compliment?

For if there was even a slim chance that you could stop sinning, wouldn't you want to learn about such a teaching in Scripture so as to please your LORD? Hence, why I challenge you to be fair and objective here in what the Scriptures actually say. Not what you want them to say. But what would God want you to do? And how does the Word sound as you read it plainly?

 

[49]

Sir, you still did not answer my question...are you perfect and do not sin?

 

[dcontroversal]

Jason, I have been following this thread a few days and will not post my belief(s) as I do not feel God or anything pertaining to God is an arguable topic. I do want to ask you one question though...are you perfect and do not sin?

There are a few on here who will say that they do not sin and or go months/years without sin.........

 

[BradC]

What is the point of even accepting God if one is just going to be like the world and unchanged? Do you have a sense of morality? What things are acceptable to you and unacceptable to you as far as right and wrong go? Do you have no moral compass? Do you think God is unjust or unrighteous whereby He will allow you to get away with evil yet He does not let the unbeliever get away with evil? Does that not sound like you are making God out to be a respecter of persons? Does that not sound like you are ignoring God's goodness by allowing your evil or rebellion to slide with no remorse or effort on your part to change?

Paul says,
​

"Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).​

Paul says, and such WERE (Past tense) some of you. Meaning you used to do those types of sins before you became a believer, but you are not supposed to be that way anymore (after having believed).

Paul also essentially says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Most OSAS Proponents I have talked with have either flat out denied certain words of Jesus (as applying to us) and many say living holy is not necessary in being a true child of God.

​

That doesn't make sense. A believer (or person who had fellowship with God) is not an unbeliever if they had a one time moment of unbelief or doubt. Peter was not labeled as an unbeliever, nor was his discipleship revoked because he had a moment of unbelief whereby he could not continue to walk on the water. An unbeliever is somebody who persists in unbelief despite the truth. An unbeliever is someone generally who has never known the LORD or it is someone who has apostasized.

Adam and Eve did not become unbelievers or persist in following a false road of salvation. They had a momentary lapse of falling into committing a sin that would place all of mankind in sin. They died spiritually the very day the LORD said they would. God said, in that day you will die. They didn't die physically. They died spiritually. Remember, there body was not immortal unless they ate of the tree of life. Adam and Eve broke the Commandment of God. They sinned. 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law. That is what they did. They transgressed the Law and the devil lied to them saying they would not die (But they did die). This is the same lie that is being pushed by OSAS proponents today. They are saying you can sin and still be saved. You shall not die. Words that are echoed by the serpent all the way back in the beginning.
​

Jason, because of your beliefs the following passage poses a huge problem for you. What has been accomplished through God's Son on behalf of sinful man and as man, who also became sin that those who believe might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Complete justification comes by faith and through the act of faith and not according to any deeds done or not done that are good or evil, therefore justification can not be cancelled or annulled by the same deeds whether they are good or evil. Justification is an act of perfect grace making a sinful man completely righteous by wiping away his sins and giving him a perfect standing before a holy and righteous God. This is all done through faith based upon the work of another (God's Son) and not a according to a single act or deed accomplished by the sinner.

Repentance of sin saves no one, only faith in the work of the cross saves a sinner. To acknowledge what Christ did on the cross is an acknowledgment of being a sinner and believing that work on the cross is turning to him for salvation. In that salvation of grace is the cleansing and forgiveness of all sin, justification from all sin and a gift of imputed righteousness that is the same righteousness that is in Christ. The believer reckons himself to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God through the righteousness that was imputed to him through Jesus Christ. The sinner who has now believed and received all these things by grace is sealed with the Holy Spirit presence who dwells within the believer until the day of redemption, who will never leave him or forsake him no matter what happens in his life. The Holy Spirit has a job to do in the life of every believer and will perform that work unceasingly.

 

[Jason0047]

Sir, you still did not answer my question...are you perfect and do not sin?

It's implied by what I said. I said God’s Word is true regardless of what man does. I said the goal is to stop sinning. This means that I have not reached perfection. However, today or tomorrow could be the day I will have the victory because Jesus works in me. For Jesus is manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

Now, before you even say it, how can I tell others to believe in Sinless Perfectionism when I have not totally ceased from sin yet? Well, I am not telling anyone to do something I have not done myself. What I am trying to get people to do is have BELIEF in those Scriptures that teach you can stop sinning. For obviously for many it is not going to be an overnight process to be perfect even if they do believe those Scriptures and work with the LORD to stop sinning. However, there are many Scriptures that talk about, though (of which I plan to create a thread at some point soon).

So my position is getting people to believe those verses on Sinless Perfectionism. My position is not saying they should immediately stop sinning because I have. Like I said, the Word is true regardless of what man does.

 

[BradC]

Jason, because of your beliefs the following passage poses a huge problem for you. What has been accomplished through God's Son on behalf of sinful man and as man, who also became sin that those who believe might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Complete justification comes by faith and through the act of faith and not according to any deeds done or not done that are good or evil, therefore justification can not be cancelled or annulled by the same deeds whether they are good or evil. Justification is an act of perfect grace making a sinful man completely righteous by wiping away his sins and giving him a perfect standing before a holy and righteous God. This is all done through faith based upon the work of another (God's Son) and not a according to a single act or deed accomplished by the sinner.

Repentance of sin saves no one, only faith in the work of the cross saves a sinner. To acknowledge what Christ did on the cross is an acknowledgment of being a sinner and believing that work on the cross is turning to him for salvation. In that salvation of grace is the cleansing and forgiveness of all sin, justification from all sin and a gift of imputed righteousness that is the same righteousness that is in Christ. The believer reckons himself to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God through the righteousness that was imputed to him through Jesus Christ. The sinner who has now believed and received all these things by grace is sealed with the Holy Spirit presence who dwells within the believer until the day of redemption, who will never leave him or forsake him no matter what happens in his life. The Holy Spirit has a job to do in the life of every believer and will perform that work unceasingly.

Here is the passage...

Rom 9:11-32

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[KennethC]

Really? Can you name the dates when you went through a whole 24 hour day without committing a single sin by thought, word, or deed?

Those dates should be burned in your mind because they would be absolutely monumental.

I mean, if I ever went through an entire day without a single sin, I would tattoo that date on my face, so I could see it every day when I look in the mirror.


Wait....is getting a tattoo a sin to you?



Dang.....sinned again.

There are a number of days that I have gone without sinning that day, as it becomes our new nature by the Holy Spirit to abstain from sinning having victory over sin.

I can also show you scripture that shows that a thought itself is not a sin but you would probably deny them and say that thoughts are sin. The confusion comes because of the phrase lustful thoughts in the bible, and this confuses people because they focus only on the word "thought" and forget about the preceding word lust/lustful and where it comes from; The heart !!!

If it comes from the heart it has turned into a feeling and not just a thought alone, and Apostle James clarifies this with James 1:14-16. When the thought has turned to felling it has conceived and given birth to sin, then when that sin get full grown again to control you again it leads to eternal death.

By the way getting a tattoo is an OT written ordinance of the Mosaic laws that do not apply in the new covenant !!!

 

[KennethC]

DUDE, your nothing but a joke...I have seen you on numerous occasions use those verses to try and prove one can lose salvation....everybody one here can see how you twist the scriptures and your own words when you get nailed.......keep on deceiving yourself in pride.....you will be abased in due time!

I am not using self pride and if you would step back take a deep breath and be open minded as Christians are suppose to be, and not just accept every whim you were taught then how you speak and treat others would be more in line with the love and mercy of God's grace.

There is another group out there that believes everything they are taught is true also, and that would be the RCC.
Instead of listening to others to show them the error in their doctrine they stay blind to the truth and flat out will not listen to pure undefiled scripture.

You keep saying everybody on here which is a complete exaggeration, as there are just as many on here that instruct the same way as I do as there almost is that side with you. We have been in a thread a couple of times where 4 or more people have called you out on a misunderstanding with scripture.

Your constant judging me and my character is not of the faith, and I will leave you with these final words from bible on a warning on this treatment of others you do:

Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am not using self pride and if you would step back take a deep breath and be open minded as Christians are suppose to be, and not just accept every whim you were taught then how you speak and treat others would be more in line with the love and mercy of God's grace.

There is another group out there that believes everything they are taught is true also, and that would be the RCC.
Instead of listening to others to show them the error in their doctrine they stay blind to the truth and flat out will not listen to pure undefiled scripture.

You keep saying everybody on here which is a complete exaggeration, as there are just as many on here that instruct the same way as I do as there almost is that side with you. We have been in a thread a couple of times where 4 or more people have called you out on a misunderstanding with scripture.

Your constant judging me and my character is not of the faith, and I will leave you with these final words from bible on a warning on this treatment of others you do:

Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Your assumptions are unfounded...I don't base what I believe on what other people teach and speaking of Catholicism...you are the only one between us that has been tainted with their heretical teachings.....most importantly the loss of eternal life and salvation that is found in Christ! And I have no problem judging you as a false teacher as your record of rejecting verb tense, definitions of words and context is clear to (most) on here!

 

[BradC]

There are a number of days that I have gone without sinning that day, as it becomes our new nature by the Holy Spirit to abstain from sinning having victory over sin.

I can also show you scripture that shows that a thought itself is not a sin but you would probably deny them and say that thoughts are sin. The confusion comes because of the phrase lustful thoughts in the bible, and this confuses people because they focus only on the word "thought" and forget about the preceding word lust/lustful and where it comes from; The heart !!!

If it comes from the heart it has turned into a feeling and not just a thought alone, and Apostle James clarifies this with James 1:14-16. When the thought has turned to felling it has conceived and given birth to sin, then when that sin get full grown again to control you again it leads to eternal death.

By the way getting a tattoo is an OT written ordinance of the Mosaic laws that do not apply in the new covenant !!!

Did you examine every thought and imagination to see whether it exalted itself against the knowledge of God and did you cast it down and not give place to it for not even a moment of consideration? To be lead by the Spirit is to not fulfill the lust of the flesh and to not mind high things or to get involved in matters that are too great for us.

 

[KennethC]

Did you examine every thought and imagination to see whether it exalted itself against the knowledge of God and did you cast it down and not give place to it for not even a moment of consideration? To be lead by the Spirit is to not fulfill the lust of the flesh and to not mind high things or to get involved in matters that are too great for us.

The Holy Spirit that is in me helps me to do this to cast down thoughts before they give birth to sin, do I some times here or there backslide and stumble? Yes I do as we all do, but nowhere in the bible does it say or show a born again believer who has the Holy Spirit in them will continue to sin everyday. That is a contradiction to one of the reasons the Holy Spirit was sent to us, and falls under the category of those who profess godliness but deny the power thereof.

We are told to turn away and not listen to those who act holy or under God's grace but deny the power to turn away from everyday sinful lifestyles.

 

[KennethC]

Your assumptions are unfounded...I don't base what I believe on what other people teach and speaking of Catholicism...you are the only one between us that has been tainted with their heretical teachings.....most importantly the loss of eternal life and salvation that is found in Christ! And I have no problem judging you as a false teacher as your record of rejecting verb tense, definitions of words and context is clear to (most) on here!

Did I say you believe Catholicism ????

No, what I said is that I compared your close mindedness to listen to others because of the teachings you went through with how closed minded most Catholics are to others because of there teachings they have been given.

I have not been tainted with their beliefs as your false allegations keep rolling of your tongue.

When I was in the Catholic church for 5 years I did nothing but call them out on what they taught, and left because it did not align with the bible. I was not influenced or tainted by that church !!!


Well we are told not to judge and especially when you are passing false judgment !!!

I am done with your false allegations !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Did I say you believe Catholicism ????

No, what I said is that I compared your close mindedness to listen to others because of the teachings you went through with how closed minded most Catholics are to others because of there teachings they have been given.

I have not been tainted with their beliefs as your false allegations keep rolling of your tongue.

When I was in the Catholic church for 5 years I did nothing but call them out on what they taught, and left because it did not align with the bible. I was not influenced or tainted by that church !!!


Well we are told not to judge and especially when you are passing false judgment !!!

I am done with your false allegations !!!

If you disagreed with the Catholics why did you stay 5 years? And actually we are told to judge ALL things by the word.....sorry if your offended Kenneth, but you regularly reject truth that proves you are in error.....receive it or not!

 

[psalm6819]

Really? What cannons? I do not own gun like weapons nor have I gone beyond what is written in God's Word. If you believe otherwise, you are going to have to provide post #'s, and then we can talk about it with God's Word; Otherwise you are just falsely accusing me for making things up when such a thing is not true.

Get your dictionary, canons not cannons.

 

[psalm6819]

I have to wonder why you are so hung up on "license to sin" is it your thought because you would run amok without all that fear of God's punishment that the rest of would? Haven't you ever loved someone so much that it is the desire of your heart to please them?

I obey from love and gratitude. The Holy Spirit deals gently with me, I am loved into submission.

Not slapped long the side of the head.

 

[dcontroversal]

Did I say you believe Catholicism ????

No, what I said is that I compared your close mindedness to listen to others because of the teachings you went through with how closed minded most Catholics are to others because of there teachings they have been given.

I have not been tainted with their beliefs as your false allegations keep rolling of your tongue.

When I was in the Catholic church for 5 years I did nothing but call them out on what they taught, and left because it did not align with the bible. I was not influenced or tainted by that church !!!


Well we are told not to judge and especially when you are passing false judgment !!!

I am done with your false allegations !!!

And for the record...you are as close minded as they come as many have shown you your errors and your reject and stand on your own opinion of the word......so while you point the finger friend...just remember that 4 are pointing right back at ya pal.....

 

[elf3]

When I came to Christ is was not me drawing to God but God drawing me to Him. John 6:65 "And He said "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father.". John 6:43 "Jesus therefore answered and said to them , "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.". John 10:28,29 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatched them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one.".

3 times Jesus tells us we are given to Him by the Father. Jesus also tells us that once given no one can snatch us out of His hands. So if we are given by God and no one can remove us from His hands what does that tell you? Does that then mean we are able to lose our salvation? How can we lose our salvation if we cannot remove ourselves from His hands? The term we use is "born again". How can one be "unborn"? If God chose me then I cannot unchoose God because once chosen He tells me that no one can remove me.

Those we see as "falling away" were never in God's hands to begin with. They put on a "good show" but we're never truly in Christ.

This is how I came to Christ, proven by Scripture. This is why I believe in OSAS proven by Scripture.