No. God does not force salvation upon people. If that was the case, then everyone would be saved. Remember, in Matthew 7, there are those who thought they were in God's good graces but the LORD said to them to depart from him because they worked iniquity (sin). This is all in context to when Jesus then says that they that do what He says is likened to building your house on a Rock versus those who don't (which likened to building your house on the sand).
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W
Is sin simply separation from God, or does sin cause separation from God?
If God hates sin, and God is omnipotent -- why [did/does He] allow sin to exist?
1. God created everything and everything was good.
2. God made available a tree of knowledge available which, if used, would make man die. -- Why would God do this?
1. I didn't ask to be born, God created me through my parents decision (and the decisions of many parents before mine).
2. Why then, are we all born sinners? Born separated from God? Born into condemnation and death?
3. How does God's incarnate (Jesus) death and resurrection reconnect us to God?
Ultimately, leads me to some difficult questions:
Why does God create us, damn us, then demand our worship eternally? -- We didn't ask for any of this -- None of this was by our own doing. -- God is the ultimate responsible being -- He is just as much responsible for all that is evil as He is responsible for all that is good.
If God hates sin, and God is omnipotent -- why [did/does He] allow sin to exist?
1. God created everything and everything was good.
2. God made available a tree of knowledge available which, if used, would make man die. -- Why would God do this?
1. I didn't ask to be born, God created me through my parents decision (and the decisions of many parents before mine).
2. Why then, are we all born sinners? Born separated from God? Born into condemnation and death?
3. How does God's incarnate (Jesus) death and resurrection reconnect us to God?
Ultimately, leads me to some difficult questions:
Why does God create us, damn us, then demand our worship eternally? -- We didn't ask for any of this -- None of this was by our own doing. -- God is the ultimate responsible being -- He is just as much responsible for all that is evil as He is responsible for all that is good.
W
Matthew 5:21-26 ESV
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.
Deuteronomy 5:17
"You shall not murder."
Romans 13:8-10 ESV
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
English Standard Version uses "murder" in place of "kill" almost everywhere -- just a friendly FYI.
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.
Deuteronomy 5:17
"You shall not murder."
Romans 13:8-10 ESV
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
English Standard Version uses "murder" in place of "kill" almost everywhere -- just a friendly FYI.
W
umm, GypsyRebel, "murder" and "kill" mean the same exact thing. To murder IS to kill. And to kill IS to murder. It makes no difference whether the bible says murder or kill, it's the same exact thing.. 
Perhaps for purposes of this thread, murder and killing are one-and-the-same but in a Court of Law there are stark differences between the two.
Another thought to consider: Murder always involves killing, but killing does not always involve murder. For example, when we slaughter livestock for food -- this is killing, and not murder.
While God does execute Judgment upon evils within this world by using His ministers of justice (Such as unbelieving authorities in various governments, such as the army and the police - See Romans 13), all sin will eventually be judged by God at the Judgment. God's actual physical judgment on sin is not in conflict with the Biblical teaching on how sin separates a person spiritually from God. For...
Sin is separation from God:
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29
Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord
Isaiah 57:17 ESV
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Job 27:8-9 GNV
For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?
Zechariah 7:13 KJ2
Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.
Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT
Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.
Jeremiah 14:10-12
Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
Isaiah 58:9 HCSB
At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,
Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me
Psalm 34:15-16
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Sin is separation from God:
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29
Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord
Isaiah 57:17 ESV
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Job 27:8-9 GNV
For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?
Zechariah 7:13 KJ2
Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.
Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT
Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.
Jeremiah 14:10-12
Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
Isaiah 58:9 HCSB
At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,
Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me
Psalm 34:15-16
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
W
Not sure if you are planning to address any of my other questions or not, but all I got from this is: Sin = separation from God.
I understand this.
What I do not understand, is why God allowed us to become sinners. For example, if I pick up a dog from the animal shelter, put the dog in a fenced yard, put two water bowls in the yard, and tell the dog NOT to drink out of one, but it's okay to drink out of the other. The dog will inevitably drink from both bowls at some point. If God is perfect, if God cannot make mistakes, if God is all-powerful, and all-knowing... why then, did he allow us to become sinners? Why even allow the temptation? If sin (separation from God) leads to death (an eternal death of fire and brimstone) -- why such a severe punishment, when it was never our choice to be created in the first place?
Are you catching my drift? Are you understanding what it is that I am wrestling with here?
I understand this.
What I do not understand, is why God allowed us to become sinners. For example, if I pick up a dog from the animal shelter, put the dog in a fenced yard, put two water bowls in the yard, and tell the dog NOT to drink out of one, but it's okay to drink out of the other. The dog will inevitably drink from both bowls at some point. If God is perfect, if God cannot make mistakes, if God is all-powerful, and all-knowing... why then, did he allow us to become sinners? Why even allow the temptation? If sin (separation from God) leads to death (an eternal death of fire and brimstone) -- why such a severe punishment, when it was never our choice to be created in the first place?
Are you catching my drift? Are you understanding what it is that I am wrestling with here?
I believe God allowed evil to exist so that true love can exist. For true love cannot exist if we were all forced to love Him. Anyways, I go more into detail into explaining in my post here as for the existence of evil (if you are interested).
As for Eternal Conscious Torment. Well, I believe the Bible teaches Dualistic Conditionalism (Which is under the umbrella of Conditiional Immortality). This is the belief that Hell (Hades) is a real place but it is more like a really bad prison and not a torture chamber. For the man who was in the place called "Torments" was not screaming mindlessly like a person would be if they were engulfed in flames. For if somebody was held down in a campfire there is no way that such a person could carry on a normal conversation with others. In other words, the rich man was being tormented by the heat of the flame in front of him in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. Also, the Lake of Fire is a place where the wicked will be destroyed both body and soul. For Jesus said fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire. Meaning, God is going to punish all people fairly for their sins and He is not going to punish people beyond what the crime calls for. For God is fair in His judgments.
Anyways, to learn more with Scripture on this, check out this thread here.
As for Eternal Conscious Torment. Well, I believe the Bible teaches Dualistic Conditionalism (Which is under the umbrella of Conditiional Immortality). This is the belief that Hell (Hades) is a real place but it is more like a really bad prison and not a torture chamber. For the man who was in the place called "Torments" was not screaming mindlessly like a person would be if they were engulfed in flames. For if somebody was held down in a campfire there is no way that such a person could carry on a normal conversation with others. In other words, the rich man was being tormented by the heat of the flame in front of him in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. Also, the Lake of Fire is a place where the wicked will be destroyed both body and soul. For Jesus said fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire. Meaning, God is going to punish all people fairly for their sins and He is not going to punish people beyond what the crime calls for. For God is fair in His judgments.
Anyways, to learn more with Scripture on this, check out this thread here.
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G
I too have asked this question. The only answer I got was God grants us free will. The right to choose which we want to do.
Whether we want to walk in the paths of righteousness and open our hearts and minds to the one and only one who will love us.
But on a side note: every time I post anything on what I believe on here I'm told I'm wrong so. Take it as you will.
Whether we want to walk in the paths of righteousness and open our hearts and minds to the one and only one who will love us.
But on a side note: every time I post anything on what I believe on here I'm told I'm wrong so. Take it as you will.
I won´t say "you´re wrong"... If I said, Won´t I be ONE of those who have tried to "control" YOUR FREE WILL, by the way?
Yet, I´m scared:
a) Another Gypsy?
b) A Rebel?
I´m scared! (and it´s -also- that exercise of FREE will)
Nice to see more "REBELS" here.
Yet, I´m scared:
a) Another Gypsy?
b) A Rebel?
I´m scared! (and it´s -also- that exercise of FREE will)
Nice to see more "REBELS" here.
I am confused, why are you Scared?
I LONG to be with my LORD, and I am ready to go with Him at any moment,
YET, because I still her, I know HE has work for me to do, and doing His will brings JOY!
I have that genuine INNER PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST, that comes
only when you Surrender Completely to HIM as Master of your life, which is what LORD means.
When we bow to HIM as Lord, GOD in the Flesh, and as MY KING, all kinds of wonderful
things inside out human born again spirits.
Galatians 5:22-25 (NRSV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit.
umm, GypsyRebel, "murder" and "kill" mean the same exact thing. To murder IS to kill. And to kill IS to murder. It makes no difference whether the bible says murder or kill, it's the same exact thing..
I beg to differ with you.
An Officer of the Law has to Kill in the line of Duty occasionally, and so does a member of our US Military, so does an armed man, protecting his life and his family's lives, in a home invasion. NOT ONE OF THEM HAS COMMITTED MURDER. Murder involves the motive HATE:
1 John 3:15 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
If you think you do not believe in bearing arms to protect, life and property, this may change your mind:
Luke 22:36 (NET)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] He said to them, "But now, the one who has a money bag must take it, and likewise a traveler's bag too. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.
The SWORD was the Self-Defense Weapon of Choice in the time of Christ, and CHRIST certainly expected them to USE IT if they were attacked. Today the most common weapon of Choice certainly is the handgun. YES, I am a member of the NRA, trained in weapons safety by them, and by the US Military. AND YES, in a home invasion, I certainly would not hesitate to use it.
THEN:
NOW:
As for my opinion of Conscientious Objector status, I think this pretty much erases it:
Romans 13:1-8 (NET)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment
[SUP]3 [/SUP] (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] for it is God's servant for your good.
But if you do wrong, be in fear;
for it does not bear the sword in vain.
It is God's servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath of the authorities but also because of your conscience.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For this reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants devoted to governing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Pay everyone what is owed: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Should they continually insist that they are Conscientious Objectors, there is always a need for MEDICS on the Front Line.
My opinion of so-called gun accidents, is that they are in reality VIOLATIONS of GUN SAFETY RULES.
DO NOT confuse rules for personal conduct, with rules for governmental conduct; THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
SELF DEFENSE IS NOT MURDER:
[video=youtube;_NJQK2BscIg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg#t=10[/video]
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Many years ago two parents were having difficulty feeding their children so one of their children, a 13 year old boy, hung himself so that his brothers and sisters would have enough to eat.
Everyone who wants to call that sin, have at it. I call it heroism. His death was misguided and unnecessary, but it was heroism nonetheless. I look forward to meeting him in the Kingdom.
Everyone who wants to call that sin, have at it. I call it heroism. His death was misguided and unnecessary, but it was heroism nonetheless. I look forward to meeting him in the Kingdom.
Then you deserve a better answer to why GOD allowed Satan to bring sin into this world, and allows us the free will to CHOOSE WHOM WE WILL SERVE. The answer is much more simple than you might imagine.
1 Peter 4:11 (ISV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Whoever speaks must speak God's words. Whoever serves must serve with the strength that God supplies, so that in every way God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. Glory and power belong to him forever and ever! Amen.
Leviticus 10:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD spoke, saying: 'By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified.' " So Aaron held his peace.
Sure GOD could have created us without the ability to sin, but that would make us biological robots programmed by GOD; and there would BE NO GLORY GOING TO GOD, if we could ONLY FUNCTION as programed. It is when WE CHOOSE, to LOVE HIM, and CHOOSE to OBEY HIM because we LOVE HIM, that GOD IS GLORIFIED. It literally is part of GOD's NATURE, that HE MUST BE GLORIFIED.
1 Peter 4:11 (ISV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Whoever speaks must speak God's words. Whoever serves must serve with the strength that God supplies, so that in every way God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. Glory and power belong to him forever and ever! Amen.
Leviticus 10:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD spoke, saying: 'By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified.' " So Aaron held his peace.
Sure GOD could have created us without the ability to sin, but that would make us biological robots programmed by GOD; and there would BE NO GLORY GOING TO GOD, if we could ONLY FUNCTION as programed. It is when WE CHOOSE, to LOVE HIM, and CHOOSE to OBEY HIM because we LOVE HIM, that GOD IS GLORIFIED. It literally is part of GOD's NATURE, that HE MUST BE GLORIFIED.