I don't think anyone is maligning those who have the true gift of tongues, only trying to let those who think that it is necessary to speak in tongues to be saved that it is not a necessity. 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 was mentioned and I would add 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 as proof that not everyone needs to speak in tongues. (7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.) Also we are told that all believers with different gifts make up the body of Christ and not all can be a hand or a foot or tongue.
For those who say they were saved before they spoke in tongues....
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This is perfectly true. No man is a Christians who has not been born of the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. But it says nothing about tongues.
Why don't you emphasise the previous verse? There was a rushing mighty wind and tongues of fire settled on each of them. THAT was the major experience, the one that counted.
The term 'filled (pimplemi, NOT pleroo) with the Holy Spirit' is always used in the NT to give the reason for inspired words. Thus Zacharias and Elizabeth were 'filled (pimplemi) with the Holy Spirit' and prophesied (no tongues there). The emphasis in verse 4 is on the fact that unusually they spoke in tongues. Being filled with the Holy Spirit EXPLAINED the source of the tongues. The tongues were NOT a sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit. They were the sign of the reversion of what happened at Babel. But how were they able to speak in tongues? Answer, through a special activity of the Holy Spirit as with Zecharias and Elizabeth. The MAJOR experience of the Apostles was being turned into God's Temple through wind and fire.
No confusion. At Pentecost they WERE natural languages. All around heard the Apostles speaking in their own languages.
1 This is glossolalia and is totally different to what happened at Pentecost. This is praying to God in a language no one understands (when it is not faked or spurious)
this is called twisting the Scriptures. At Pentecost they did not hear babble. They heard and understood their own languages. You are being deceitful here.
.. And what does Acts 2.38 ff say about tongues? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.They were not required or expected to speak in tongues.
Why in this UNIQUE case was the Spirit not given in full power?. They were of course born of the Spirit when they believed (if any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His). What they did not receive was an effusion of the Holy Spirit.
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The Spirit is never automatic. But tell me. How could they hav become Christians if they had not received the Spirit? If any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His.
Now why did this happen only in the case of the Samaritans and of the disciples of John the baptist? Because in both cases there was a danger that they would form a separatist movement. Thus God ensured that they received their effusion of the Holy Spirit at the hands of the Jerusalem apostles.
Buixt the Samaritans did NOT speak in tongues. They prophesied. Prophesy is a different gift and is NOT in tongues. Thus your whole case for tongues collapses.
Why don't you emphasise the previous verse? There was a rushing mighty wind and tongues of fire settled on each of them. THAT was the major experience, the one that counted.
The term 'filled (pimplemi, NOT pleroo) with the Holy Spirit' is always used in the NT to give the reason for inspired words. Thus Zacharias and Elizabeth were 'filled (pimplemi) with the Holy Spirit' and prophesied (no tongues there). The emphasis in verse 4 is on the fact that unusually they spoke in tongues. Being filled with the Holy Spirit EXPLAINED the source of the tongues. The tongues were NOT a sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit. They were the sign of the reversion of what happened at Babel. But how were they able to speak in tongues? Answer, through a special activity of the Holy Spirit as with Zecharias and Elizabeth. The MAJOR experience of the Apostles was being turned into God's Temple through wind and fire.
No confusion. At Pentecost they WERE natural languages. All around heard the Apostles speaking in their own languages.
1 This is glossolalia and is totally different to what happened at Pentecost. This is praying to God in a language no one understands (when it is not faked or spurious)
this is called twisting the Scriptures. At Pentecost they did not hear babble. They heard and understood their own languages. You are being deceitful here.
.. And what does Acts 2.38 ff say about tongues? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.They were not required or expected to speak in tongues.
Why in this UNIQUE case was the Spirit not given in full power?. They were of course born of the Spirit when they believed (if any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His). What they did not receive was an effusion of the Holy Spirit.
.
The Spirit is never automatic. But tell me. How could they hav become Christians if they had not received the Spirit? If any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His.
Now why did this happen only in the case of the Samaritans and of the disciples of John the baptist? Because in both cases there was a danger that they would form a separatist movement. Thus God ensured that they received their effusion of the Holy Spirit at the hands of the Jerusalem apostles.
Buixt the Samaritans did NOT speak in tongues. They prophesied. Prophesy is a different gift and is NOT in tongues. Thus your whole case for tongues collapses.
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I think maybe go back and read the posts: some of them were pretty bad, especially the one that posted nonsense and thought it was smart to do so.
The point the original post was making was that we have to move in the Spirit - the flesh, and especially the religious flesh, profits nothing. The latter is probably even more DANGEROUS than nothing, being lukewarm: Jesus said I would that they were hot or cold, and that those that are lukewarm He will spew out of His mouth.
I accept that contentment with what we receive is a very good thing, but is not good to encourage people to quench their own desire in the Lord and to stop reaching forward for what He wants to teach us and to give us. We surely need all the help we can get.
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
The point the original post was making was that we have to move in the Spirit - the flesh, and especially the religious flesh, profits nothing. The latter is probably even more DANGEROUS than nothing, being lukewarm: Jesus said I would that they were hot or cold, and that those that are lukewarm He will spew out of His mouth.
I accept that contentment with what we receive is a very good thing, but is not good to encourage people to quench their own desire in the Lord and to stop reaching forward for what He wants to teach us and to give us. We surely need all the help we can get.
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
K
As I mentioned in another post,it seems to me we're dealing with a "Jesus Only" here.They believe you must speak in tongues to be saved. The Bible does not say that.Also they baptize in Jesus name only.Unless I miss my guess that is what we have here.Not to be confused with the AofG pentecostals who do not teach that you must speak in tongues to be saved.
Our pastor preached a sermon on this once and he was actually addressing people in our own church. He was talking about how some people run around and shout and speak in tongues but can't be bothered to speak 2 words to their brother or sister sitting right next to them. He then said that it doesn't do any good to fall out in the floor if you get back up just as mean and hateful as you were before.
Problem is posts like those we are reading from Saint-John just simply drive people away from what is a genuine thing. Yes its not a salvation issue, if you don't want it, then that's fine, but I do it when prompted it is a wonderful thing and from Holy Spirit,, but I do not spend all my time obsessing about it or go to a church where we just simply spend half the time wallowing in self edification and "look at how great we are" which many of these churches have become.
We have a couple of people who will give a couple of messages from God each year in church, they come with an instant translation from someone else, anyone who just stands up and starts shouting out in tongues just for the sake of it will get a little talking to by the leadership.
We have a couple of people who will give a couple of messages from God each year in church, they come with an instant translation from someone else, anyone who just stands up and starts shouting out in tongues just for the sake of it will get a little talking to by the leadership.
I believe sometimes speaking in tongues is a direct conversation between that person and God and is not intended to be understood by others... if it is done during the praise and worship part of the service then I don't see a problem with it. if someone were to interrupt the pastor wwhile preaching then that would be out of order
E
dude, you have serious issues.
People got saved all over the OT. Paul told Timothy he knew how to get saved by the word of God before acts was even written.
God created all languages, they are his, When we speak to him in the language HE GAVE US, It honors him, and draws us closer to him. Speaking to him in babble will never bring yu closer to God. or make you saved.
W
Romans 16:17 ESV
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
Titus 1:9 ESV
He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Titus 2:1 ESV
But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
Titus 1:9 ESV
He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Titus 2:1 ESV
But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
Yes, I was terrified, because as I said, I did not know what was happening to me, or what it meant, or who was doing it, or for what reason. I had experienced God before, but I was not a believer. Scripture told me what happened, and I posted the verses from Colossians 2:11-15~
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your (my) whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were (I was) circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Spiritual circumcision is performed by the Spirit of God. The pain associated with spiritual circumcision isn't generally physical pain, but as a spiritually sensitive person, I felt it happen. More often than not it is an emotional struggle to yield to God. I could not yield until well after the fact. I looked for answers to what happened to me and nobody could answer my questions, nobody could come close to explaining it except what I found in Scripture, and it was for that reason that I did eventually yield to God. Even so, I have only just recently come to a fuller understanding of it. And it is not something I talk about much because I get that many would not understand. There are Christians who really reject the supernatural elements of their faith.
Here is a page on spiritual circumcision http://www.worldbibleinstitute.org/circumsicion.htm
Some of my testimony about it http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119124-crucified-upside-down.html#post2210022
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
Yes, I was terrified, because as I said, I did not know what was happening to me, or what it meant, or who was doing it, or for what reason. I had experienced God before, but I was not a believer. Scripture told me what happened, and I posted the verses from Colossians 2:11-15~
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your (my) whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were (I was) circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Spiritual circumcision is performed by the Spirit of God. The pain associated with spiritual circumcision isn't generally physical pain, but as a spiritually sensitive person, I felt it happen. More often than not it is an emotional struggle to yield to God. I could not yield until well after the fact. I looked for answers to what happened to me and nobody could answer my questions, nobody could come close to explaining it except what I found in Scripture, and it was for that reason that I did eventually yield to God. Even so, I have only just recently come to a fuller understanding of it. And it is not something I talk about much because I get that many would not understand. There are Christians who really reject the supernatural elements of their faith.
Here is a page on spiritual circumcision http://www.worldbibleinstitute.org/circumsicion.htm
Some of my testimony about it http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119124-crucified-upside-down.html#post2210022
E
you have no biblical basis for stating a person is not saved if they do not speak in tongues...your proof texts as per your op do not say what you are trying to make them say
what about all the other gifts? if we don't exhibit any, does that mean we are not saved?
if a person only prays in tongues and does not speak and interpret in church, then they are not building up the body, they are building up themself in the spirit which is fine, but where is their gift if they can only speak in tongues?
what you are saying can be understood as enthusiasm, but it is not universally applicable and does not line up with the Bible
You are a misguided man who does not rightly divide the word of God. But even though, my response was an insult and I should not have let satan have my tongue for that moment! I apologize to you and everyone who sees this! I am the child of the Almighty God Jesus Christ! This is NOT who I am when I walk in the spirit but it is who I was before God saved me and what I came from! I Stand! In the name of Jesus Christ I take my rightful place back as the one who has put all malice and hateful thoughts down! I stand! I stand in the gap for you . I pray that you seek the Lord to know his truths written in his word and not the lies of the one who comes as an angel of light to lie to you and get you off track. By the grace of our King Jesus Christ the Lamb of God I pray you are taught by the Holy Spirit. The Lord rebuke the spirit behind your error! In the name of Jesus I pray . I will STAND. Amen!
L
Sorry, but tongues are not about salvation, but are a tool used by God as a witness.
Not all Believers speak in tongues.
In fact, Paul tells the Church to focus on gaining the greater gifts... of which tongues is NOT!
The whole concept is just nonsense.
I am not a cessationist, but fully expect and anticipate the miraculous moving of God, and have witnessed it over and over.
However, turning the gift of tongues into a necessary sign of salvation is such utter evil garbage, and MUST be refuted and rooted out.
It is a disgusting theology.
Not all Believers speak in tongues.
In fact, Paul tells the Church to focus on gaining the greater gifts... of which tongues is NOT!
The whole concept is just nonsense.
I am not a cessationist, but fully expect and anticipate the miraculous moving of God, and have witnessed it over and over.
However, turning the gift of tongues into a necessary sign of salvation is such utter evil garbage, and MUST be refuted and rooted out.
It is a disgusting theology.