If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.
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S
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that Christian don't sin. What I am saying is that a Christian has their heart changed to not want to sin. They can still be lead by the flesh or tempted of Satan. A big part of what I try to do is to change people's thinking by teaching them who they are because of the new birth. A saved person who doesn't have their mind renewed to the truth of who they are in Christ and because of Christ is struggling against sin in their own power and will always loose. The act of sin by them doesn't make them a sinner any more than an act of righteousness by us can make us righteous.
S
For who can confess all their sins when they first come to God?
You are saying that all sins must be confessed before God to receive forgiveness. You are also saying that you cannot confess all sins when you come before God. Do you not see a problem here? What you are saying is that we cannot be forgiven when we first come to God.
Yes, we need to confess sins that God deals with us about but it is more because God wants us to acknowledge those sins as sin and get rid of them from our life, than about being forgiven. You have to understand that Salvation is by grace through faith,not by my ability to remember and confess every sin. You have placed salvation on Man's ability rather than on God's.
You are saying that all sins must be confessed before God to receive forgiveness. You are also saying that you cannot confess all sins when you come before God. Do you not see a problem here? What you are saying is that we cannot be forgiven when we first come to God.
Yes, we need to confess sins that God deals with us about but it is more because God wants us to acknowledge those sins as sin and get rid of them from our life, than about being forgiven. You have to understand that Salvation is by grace through faith,not by my ability to remember and confess every sin. You have placed salvation on Man's ability rather than on God's.
J
I like what J- wrote about the Trinity, that God is three in one, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I also like what he’s said about OSAS.
However, his use of verses to try to support a strict perfectionism in which one serious sin means loss of salvation is probably misleading. In a way, OSASers can use “strict perfectionists” as a strawman to support their OSAS claims, and a “strict perfectionist” can use OSASers as a strawman to support their perfectionist claims.
Somewhere inbetween God’s grace, mercy and judgment is being mocked. Obedience to Jesus’ words is very important, whether a person thinks he’s saved or not. However, the Lord’s prayer says, “forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors” shows that God is a merciful God, besides having righteous judgment. Revelation 22:12-16 – Jesus said --
OSASers and “strict perfectionists” need to consider both God’s mercy and judgment. Eternal life is at stake.
However, his use of verses to try to support a strict perfectionism in which one serious sin means loss of salvation is probably misleading. In a way, OSASers can use “strict perfectionists” as a strawman to support their OSAS claims, and a “strict perfectionist” can use OSASers as a strawman to support their perfectionist claims.
Somewhere inbetween God’s grace, mercy and judgment is being mocked. Obedience to Jesus’ words is very important, whether a person thinks he’s saved or not. However, the Lord’s prayer says, “forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors” shows that God is a merciful God, besides having righteous judgment. Revelation 22:12-16 – Jesus said --
OSASers and “strict perfectionists” need to consider both God’s mercy and judgment. Eternal life is at stake.
Common sense: why would a tree designed to bear fruit wait to do it in three years, without having something holding it back? Why would Christ be held back in any endeavor He claims as His will? For who could possibly claim to even hinder Christ's course of action? And if it is simply a bump in the road to you, how would that be able to be described as sin unconfessed? If sin is not a wrong doing and is a wrong being to God, how can the Scripture that says, "We cannot serve two Masters" be sidetracked at this fork in the road?
If I am sinning and still in Gods graces detaching myself from the need to a forward motion and a confessional conscience, how then is this any different to your original problem of being enslaved in sin once again destined to hell? If I am a sin being, how am I to mask this from the one who knows it, has answered it, and is waiting for you to apply yourself to His plan? God hasn't said, "You know something the plan needs an amendment, let's put grace in front of the work of the cross and the resurrection. This isn't about the do's and don'ts, it is much deeper than that! it's about the "whom" we belong to.
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine." John 7:17. Intellectual pursuit must stop and obedience must begin before understanding is given. Don't risk going from God uncovering your spirit of self-vindication and God creating a crisis of sensitivity in you over things you have never even thought of before, to an attempt to evade it- leaving behind a religious imposter.
God is calling us to examine things that at one time we shrugged our shoulders about. If we refuse to obey Him, this is why you have not grown thru it. As Jesus said, "First....go...." Even at the risk of being thought of as being fanatical, we must obey what God tells us. Just make sure it's God, by which spirit you rest in.
If I am sinning and still in Gods graces detaching myself from the need to a forward motion and a confessional conscience, how then is this any different to your original problem of being enslaved in sin once again destined to hell? If I am a sin being, how am I to mask this from the one who knows it, has answered it, and is waiting for you to apply yourself to His plan? God hasn't said, "You know something the plan needs an amendment, let's put grace in front of the work of the cross and the resurrection. This isn't about the do's and don'ts, it is much deeper than that! it's about the "whom" we belong to.
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine." John 7:17. Intellectual pursuit must stop and obedience must begin before understanding is given. Don't risk going from God uncovering your spirit of self-vindication and God creating a crisis of sensitivity in you over things you have never even thought of before, to an attempt to evade it- leaving behind a religious imposter.
God is calling us to examine things that at one time we shrugged our shoulders about. If we refuse to obey Him, this is why you have not grown thru it. As Jesus said, "First....go...." Even at the risk of being thought of as being fanatical, we must obey what God tells us. Just make sure it's God, by which spirit you rest in.
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Anyone who condones evil has no understanding. For Paul essentially says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). When a person says they can sin and still be saved, they are promoting a doctrine of un-Godliness. For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that says he knows Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. Paul said to be ye angry and sin not; And Paul said that we had written should be considered as the Lord's Commandments. God is Holy and He cannot continue to live in a believer forever if they push a doctrine that says they can sin and still be saved. God's grace does not cover willful rebellion done against Him.
It is written...
Job 28:28
"And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding."
It is written...
Job 28:28
"And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding."
E
To say Gods grace can fail. and one can earn salvation (not lose it) based on whatever it is one claims one must do to not lose it. is to mock Gods grace and mercy.
It states his grace and mercy only goes to a certain point, then it stops.. Which if this was the case, why did Jesus come and pay for sin. We could have saved ourselves by making sure we do not fall below that point where grace and mercy would fail.
It does not matter if one teaches perfectionism (sinless), or just do-goodism (obedience) they both mock the grace of God, and fail to realize the true justice of God. That ALL have sinned and fall short. all are sinning and falling short. and all will sin and fall short.
James tells us that if we commit one of the least of all sins, we are found guilty of the whole law. So one sin per day would make us fall short of the glory of God for that day, One sin per week would make us fall short that week. and so on and so forth.
If we claim we can go more than a week without any sin whatsoever, we do not understand what real sin is, what Gods righteous standard is, and are in serious danger of rejecting his grace. Not learning from his grace, and being useless to God in the spiritual war we all are entangled in.
John tells us in his epistle. as a baby we need to KNOW our sin is forgiven (perfect tense, once and for all for all time) otherwise we will never grow to be young men or fathers. (if we are saved at all)
We need to heed johns and James warnings, so we can move onto being young men, who have overcome satan.. otherwise, we will miss out on so much.
How can you ever improve if you do not actually believe you will fix the problem? Can an alcoholic improve and yet continue to still drink? Also, do you not believe you can die unrepentant sin (like lusting, hating, and lying) and still be saved? Others have admitted to that fact. Why are you not reproving them if you are in disagreement to such a thing (if that is the case)? Do you believe you can be out of fellowship and still be saved? Is not one out of fellowship because of sin? Is not one promoting a sin and still be saved doctrine by believing such things?
No, to say that current evil or sin is covered by God is to mock God's grace.
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness," (Jude 1:4).
"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts;...." (Jude 1:13-16).
It's not about you. It's about the LORD and allowing His righteousness to flow thru you. For if the LORD does live in you, then surely the fruit will follow, no?
In Romans 3:23, it says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This is the same thing that is said in verse 10. Why is this important to understand? Well, because if you asserting that the saint is still to remain in sin because of Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23, then you are also going to have to falsely assert that the saint in verse 11 also does not seek after God and that the saint has no understanding, too. So are you saying you have no understanding and that you do not seek after God? Well, if you believe verse 10 applies to the believer, then you also have to apply verse 11, too. But we know that this is not talking to the faithful saint but it is talking about how we all at one point in our lives had sinned in the past as unbelievers. For the believer, living in sin is a past thing and now they now live unto holiness (See Ephesians 4:17-27).
In James chapter 2, James is not concerned with making a point about how all have sinned so lets not care or worry about such a thing. On the contrary, James is making a point about how we should obey a law that folks were disobeying which is with them wrongfully having a respect of persons. For James says that if you break one law you break them all is in support of God's Law and it is not in the support of breaking God's Law. For why would God want you to break God's Law? Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Do you honestly think God would want you to sin? Utter non-sense.
If one is in a spiritual war they are going to need the armor of God, right? What was that one piece called? Oh, yes. That's right. The breast plate of righteousness. This is in additon to the helmet of salvation. Yes, it is not our righteousness, but it is the righteousness of God because Christ does the "good work" in you.
If you are referring to 1 John 2:12, it is in context to 1 John 2:4 that says, he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him.
How do you overcome satan?
"Be angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesians 4:26-27).
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. (James 4:7-8).
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness," (Jude 1:4).
"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts;...." (Jude 1:13-16).
It's not about you. It's about the LORD and allowing His righteousness to flow thru you. For if the LORD does live in you, then surely the fruit will follow, no?
In Romans 3:23, it says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This is the same thing that is said in verse 10. Why is this important to understand? Well, because if you asserting that the saint is still to remain in sin because of Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23, then you are also going to have to falsely assert that the saint in verse 11 also does not seek after God and that the saint has no understanding, too. So are you saying you have no understanding and that you do not seek after God? Well, if you believe verse 10 applies to the believer, then you also have to apply verse 11, too. But we know that this is not talking to the faithful saint but it is talking about how we all at one point in our lives had sinned in the past as unbelievers. For the believer, living in sin is a past thing and now they now live unto holiness (See Ephesians 4:17-27).
In James chapter 2, James is not concerned with making a point about how all have sinned so lets not care or worry about such a thing. On the contrary, James is making a point about how we should obey a law that folks were disobeying which is with them wrongfully having a respect of persons. For James says that if you break one law you break them all is in support of God's Law and it is not in the support of breaking God's Law. For why would God want you to break God's Law? Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Do you honestly think God would want you to sin? Utter non-sense.
If one is in a spiritual war they are going to need the armor of God, right? What was that one piece called? Oh, yes. That's right. The breast plate of righteousness. This is in additon to the helmet of salvation. Yes, it is not our righteousness, but it is the righteousness of God because Christ does the "good work" in you.
If you are referring to 1 John 2:12, it is in context to 1 John 2:4 that says, he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him.
How do you overcome satan?
"Be angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesians 4:26-27).
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. (James 4:7-8).
I am not afraid of THE truth. your questions are trap questions to push YOUR truth. but i'll go anyway. I do not believe in osas. we freely chose to accept Christ, we can reject also. but that is what it will take. a rejection. not a stumble. we all stumble in many ways, James said, but outright rejection. Titus 3 whole chapter sums it up nicely.
E
actually, that keeps people away from Christ, or keeps baby christians babys, Imagine being a new christian, only to realise you still sin every day (because yoru still learning) only to hear people like Jason condemn you. I mean why bother going on when you can;t live up to the unlivable standard Jason is demanding ( a standard he can not even life up to himself. yet he does not even know it!)
How can they be trap questions? I have had people ask me loaded questions (that imply a truth that does not exist) before. Is that what you are saying? Or do you think that the scenario of my questions are not possible? If so, then how? Please explain to me why you think they are trap questions.
I am confused as to why you hesitate to answer the questions then if you do not believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine. For surely if you do not believe in OSAS, then you would be on my side preaching against a sin and still be saved doctrine.
No, the KJV does not say stumble, it says offend.
"For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2).
For the context is saying if you offend in word. Actually this verse deals with how to stop sinning believe it or not. For if you speak in line with the faith and speak about doing righteous things then what you believe and say can bridle your whole body to walk correctly. It's called positive talk.
I agree Titus 3:5 and Titus 3:8 do sum it up nicely.
We are saved by God's grace and mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost.
Titus 3:5 says,
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;"
Which then produces the fruit of the Spirit in your life.
Titus 3:8 says,
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I desire that you affirm constantly, that they who have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."
For Ezekiel 36:26-27 says,
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them."
I am confused as to why you hesitate to answer the questions then if you do not believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine. For surely if you do not believe in OSAS, then you would be on my side preaching against a sin and still be saved doctrine.
No, the KJV does not say stumble, it says offend.
"For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2).
For the context is saying if you offend in word. Actually this verse deals with how to stop sinning believe it or not. For if you speak in line with the faith and speak about doing righteous things then what you believe and say can bridle your whole body to walk correctly. It's called positive talk.
I agree Titus 3:5 and Titus 3:8 do sum it up nicely.
We are saved by God's grace and mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost.
Titus 3:5 says,
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;"
Which then produces the fruit of the Spirit in your life.
Titus 3:8 says,
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I desire that you affirm constantly, that they who have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."
For Ezekiel 36:26-27 says,
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them."