Are We Really Predestined?

[MadParrotWoman]

I've been hearing a lot this past week about being chosen by God, for those of us who lack confidence and self-worth it's pretty amazing to think that He thinks us special enough to have singled us out for salvation, above others we see as somehow superior, or better than ourselves.

Personally I don't think I can believe we are chosen, if it were so that would mean that the unsaved were always predestined for Hell...now the God I know would hardly do that - would He? If God has pre-chosen some and not others where is the choice in that? That isn't free will is it! Also what would be the point in reaching out to the unsaved if ultimately the outcome has already been decided? Despite my misgivings though it does seem like God is speaking to me through what I'm hearing and seeing and that he would seem to be saying I have been chosen..

I'd be interested to gauge others' views on this important predestination topic because a lot gets talked about on the OSAS topic yet this one seems to be a neglected topic.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

My understanding of such things as "election", "predestination" and "foreknowledge" can pretty much be summed up in the example of Noah's Ark:

Noah's Ark was God's "elected" means of salvation.

Noah's Ark was "predestined" to rise above the flood waters and to rest atop the mountains of Ararat.

God, in His "foreknowledge", knew who would and wouldn't board the Ark, yet Noah was a preacher of righteousness and all were invited aboard the same.

Turning this to Christ:

Christ is God's "elected" means of salvation.

Christ was "predestined" to be raised up far above all principality and power and might and dominion and to be seated at the right hand of the Father.

God, in His "foreknowledge", knows who will receive Christ and who will ultimately reject Him, but God will still see to it that everybody receives an invitation via hearing the gospel and having an opportunity to respond to the same.

 

[Blain]

I was actually talking to God about this very thing yesterday. Think of this say we believe that we are predestined which means some are created for heaven others are created for hell well then that would mean that if everything is set in stone then I can be destined for heaven while you no matter what you do are destined for hell. Based on fathers nature alone I know this isnt true I dont even need scripture to understand this isnt true, if God is love then does making children to be destined for hell sound loving at all? I am sure there are plenty of scriptures to seem like predestination is true but to know scripture alone isnt enough you have to know who God is to know his nature and to have a heart of love in the first place or else it will be like us humans we have eyes that see we see cars we see the sky we see ppl yet in truth we are blind because we dont really see what God sees.

Thus in the same way if we dont know God's nature and if our hearts have no love in them we will be blind as to what the scriptures actually say. Here is my belief I may be wrong but this is what my heart tells me. I believe that free will has the power to change ones fate. we may be heading for hell and our future is hell it is our fate our eternal destiny but every action has a consequence good or bad say we for whatever reason choose the right path-heaven instead of the left path which we have been following-Hell then our fate changes.

I believe that God desires all to be saved that Jesus died for all ppl which wouldnt make sense if only some of us could be saved. in the end I think it comes down down choices not fate

 

[VioletReigns]

I was actually talking to God about this very thing yesterday. Think of this say we believe that we are predestined which means some are created for heaven others are created for hell well then that would mean that if everything is set in stone then I can be destined for heaven while you no matter what you do are destined for hell. Based on fathers nature alone I know this isnt true I dont even need scripture to understand this isnt true, if God is love then does making children to be destined for hell sound loving at all? I am sure there are plenty of scriptures to seem like predestination is true but to know scripture alone isnt enough you have to know who God is to know his nature and to have a heart of love in the first place or else it will be like us humans we have eyes that see we see cars we see the sky we see ppl yet in truth we are blind because we dont really see what God sees.

Thus in the same way if we dont know God's nature and if our hearts have no love in them we will be blind as to what the scriptures actually say. Here is my belief I may be wrong but this is what my heart tells me. I believe that free will has the power to change ones fate. we may be heading for hell and our future is hell it is our fate our eternal destiny but every action has a consequence good or bad say we for whatever reason choose the right path-heaven instead of the left path which we have been following-Hell then our fate changes.

I believe that God desires all to be saved that Jesus died for all ppl which wouldnt make sense if only some of us could be saved. in the end I think it comes down down choices not fate

I don't know if all what you said is true because I'm not sure myself. But your comment, "Based on Father's nature alone I know this isn't true. I don't even need scripture to understand this isn't true", is such a profoundly true statement and I agree with you. I do measure everything according to the nature of the Lord.

And as for it coming down to our choices or our fate (predestination), my hope and trust for all people is in the Lord. If a thousand fall into one belief on my left and ten thousand fall into another belief on my right, I don't accept any opinion. Not even my own. My eyes are on God and I know by His nature He is faithful, loving, merciful, mighty, forgiving, amazing and can do the impossible in spite of our doubt.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

I was actually talking to God about this very thing yesterday. Think of this say we believe that we are predestined which means some are created for heaven others are created for hell well then that would mean that if everything is set in stone then I can be destined for heaven while you no matter what you do are destined for hell. Based on fathers nature alone I know this isnt true I dont even need scripture to understand this isnt true, if God is love then does making children to be destined for hell sound loving at all? I am sure there are plenty of scriptures to seem like predestination is true but to know scripture alone isnt enough you have to know who God is to know his nature and to have a heart of love in the first place or else it will be like us humans we have eyes that see we see cars we see the sky we see ppl yet in truth we are blind because we dont really see what God sees.

Thus in the same way if we dont know God's nature and if our hearts have no love in them we will be blind as to what the scriptures actually say. Here is my belief I may be wrong but this is what my heart tells me. I believe that free will has the power to change ones fate. we may be heading for hell and our future is hell it is our fate our eternal destiny but every action has a consequence good or bad say we for whatever reason choose the right path-heaven instead of the left path which we have been following-Hell then our fate changes.

I believe that God desires all to be saved that Jesus died for all ppl which wouldnt make sense if only some of us could be saved. in the end I think it comes down down choices not fate

I would agree with this Blain, what would be the point of being predestined for Hell? Would a loving God to that? Doesn't sound like the God I know.

 

[BarlyGurl]

I've been hearing a lot this past week about being chosen by God, for those of us who lack confidence and self-worth it's pretty amazing to think that He thinks us special enough to have singled us out for salvation, above others we see as somehow superior, or better than ourselves.

Personally I don't think I can believe we are chosen, if it were so that would mean that the unsaved were always predestined for Hell...now the God I know would hardly do that - would He? If God has pre-chosen some and not others where is the choice in that? That isn't free will is it! Also what would be the point in reaching out to the unsaved if ultimately the outcome has already been decided? Despite my misgivings though it does seem like God is speaking to me through what I'm hearing and seeing and that he would seem to be saying I have been chosen..

I'd be interested to gauge others' views on this important predestination topic because a lot gets talked about on the OSAS topic yet this one seems to be a neglected topic.

As someone who for a LONG time could not receive salvation because the "predestined" pretty much made me believe I wasn't one of the elect... I take no pleasure in considering the arguments that will ensue here. I DO encourage the mature to engage in boldly proclaiming "ALL men/women are so invited"... come drink the living water.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

As someone who for a LONG time could not receive salvation because the "predestined" pretty much made me believe I wasn't one of the elect... I take no pleasure in considering the arguments that will ensue here. I DO encourage the mature to engage in boldly proclaiming "ALL men/women are so invited"... come drink the living water.

BG, That is of people and not God, people are flawed. You found salvation when you looked to God, keep looking to Him.

 

[Adelissa]

I was taught in college that there are two predestinations. The first is that God has predestined us all for heaven, the second is what we all know as predestination where God specifically created some of us for Hell. I believe in the first, not the second. I believe God destined all to come to Him. Our free will got in the way. All the way back to Adam and Eve we have illustrations of free will. You can still find comfort that Jesus died for you, even if you were the only person on earth. His love knows no bounds. Place your worth in that, we are all special to God.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Romans 9:14-23[SUP]14 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Romans 9:14-23[SUP]14 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

And upon whom will God show mercy? I think that Jesus answered that question for us:

"And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." (Luke 18:9-14)

 

[Braylay]

I know i am...

I don't know about ya'll

 

[Joidevivre]

And why would God take the time in Deut. to place before the people blessings and curses - and ultimately it would be their own choice which they would receive? "Choose this day who you will follow" certainly respects our free will, doesn't it?

What if we are predestined to be brought into knowledge of Christ - and then our own choice takes over? A little of both?

Yet, I am also very aware of the posting of InSpiritandTruth. That is why this question will be struggled with throughout all the generations.

I think there is a spiritual dimension we just don't see - like we are all looking into these things as in a glass darkly.

I don't need to know, nor do I want to spend my time debating this in general. It hardly encourages spiritual growth and we only need to do what Jesus said "Go and make disciples..." We just have a part to play.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

And why would God take the time in Deut. to place before the people blessings and curses - and ultimately it would be their own choice which they would receive? "Choose this day who you will follow" certainly respects our free will, doesn't it?

What if we are predestined to be brought into knowledge of Christ - and then our own choice takes over? A little of both?

Yet, I am also very aware of the posting of InSpiritandTruth. That is why this question will be struggled with throughout all the generations.

I think there is a spiritual dimension we just don't see - like we are all looking into these things as in a glass darkly.

I don't need to know, nor do I want to spend my time debating this in general. It hardly encourages spiritual growth and we only need to do what Jesus said "Go and make disciples..." We just have a part to play.

Joi, I believe that spiritual growth comes with understanding. I'm merely trying to understand. It's the same with the OSAS topic, to understand this is to grow, no one gains knowledge by omission.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Yet, I am also very aware of the posting of InSpiritandTruth. That is why this question will be struggled with throughout all the generations.

I cannot answer for him in that I don't know why he posted what he posted, but I do know why others have regularly cherry-picked that portion of scripture out of the overall epistle to the Romans and that is try to make it sound like God randomly chooses some and rejects others. All that that scripture is saying is that the only way that any of us can be saved is via God's mercy and the same is available unto all who humble themselves before the Lord and ask for the same. God is no respecter of persons.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Romans 9:14-23[SUP]14 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Romans 8:29-33[SUP] "[/SUP]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
[SUP]32 [/SUP]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

 

[shotgunner]

I'm going to share something that the Lord spoke to me. Just take it as having come from a man, but a man who believes he hears from God. That's the only way I mean this. It lines up with scripture but I don't have scripture to prove it.

I asked God once about Judas. I asked how Judas could be held responsible for what he did when it had been prophesied in Isaiah long before he was even born. The Lord explained to me that he lives outside time as we know it. God is present in all times at once being both the Alpha and Omega, first and last, beginning and end. God told me that Isaiah saw in him the choice that Judas made as he was making it. Judas always had a choice though. The same happened with John when he saw a future time in God and wrote the book of Revelations.

That means that God can see the choices we make in a future time, and do for us now,based on choices that in this time we haven't even made yet. Basically it boggles the mind

Again this is just my words so take it for what it's worth and what you paid for it.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

I'm going to share something that the Lord spoke to me. Just take it as having come from a man, but a man who believes he hears from God. That's the only way I mean this. It lines up with scripture but I don't have scripture to prove it.

I asked God once about Judas. I asked how Judas could be held responsible for what he did when it had been prophesied in Isaiah long before he was even born. The Lord explained to me that he lives outside time as we know it. God is present in all times at once being both the Alpha and Omega, first and last, beginning and end. God told me that Isaiah saw in him the choice that Judas made as he was making it. Judas always had a choice though. The same happened with John when he saw a future time in God and wrote the book of Revelations.

That means that God can see the choices we make in a future time, and do for us now,based on choices that in this time we haven't even made yet. Basically it boggles the mind

Again this is just my words so take it for what it's worth and what you paid for it.

What about Pharaoh - did he have a choice or did God simply harden his heart to further His cause?

 

[crossnote]

I was actually talking to God about this very thing yesterday. Think of this say we believe that we are predestined which means some are created for heaven others are created for hell well then that would mean that if everything is set in stone then I can be destined for heaven while you no matter what you do are destined for hell. Based on fathers nature alone I know this isnt true I dont even need scripture to understand this isnt true, if God is love then does making children to be destined for hell sound loving at all? I am sure there are plenty of scriptures to seem like predestination is true but to know scripture alone isnt enough you have to know who God is to know his nature and to have a heart of love in the first place or else it will be like us humans we have eyes that see we see cars we see the sky we see ppl yet in truth we are blind because we dont really see what God sees.

Thus in the same way if we dont know God's nature and if our hearts have no love in them we will be blind as to what the scriptures actually say. Here is my belief I may be wrong but this is what my heart tells me. I believe that free will has the power to change ones fate. we may be heading for hell and our future is hell it is our fate our eternal destiny but every action has a consequence good or bad say we for whatever reason choose the right path-heaven instead of the left path which we have been following-Hell then our fate changes.

I believe that God desires all to be saved that Jesus died for all ppl which wouldnt make sense if only some of us could be saved. in the end I think it comes down down choices not fate

You said 'you actually talked with God yesterday'.
So Blain, is the rest of what you wrote what He told you? If so, I guess we should just close our bibles.
Oh, but you later say, 'I may be wrong, this is what my heart tells me'.
Ok, now that is authority enough over God's Word!! (shakes head in disbelief).

 

[dcontroversal]

MADPARROT....this is the basis of predestination....Before the casting down of the world, God predetermined that ALL who came to him through JESUS (biblically) would be received as full grown children and joint heirs of the Kingdom with Christ....God knew who would believe and who would not before he cast down the world.....that is how I view it....not that God said person A gets to be saved and person B tough luck....God has testified through creation and the invisible things, he has given men the ability to believe, he would have all men to be saved and come to the truth, he has made it a free gift based upon grace and faith...he has done everything possible but believe for you.....EVEN JUDAS had a choice, but God knowing the choices he would make before he made them was able to write what was written before Judas even came on the scene!

 

[dcontroversal]

What about Pharaoh - did he have a choice or did God simply harden his heart to further His cause?

Pharaoh had a choice, but God knowing what choices he would make chose to help facilitate the end result by hardening Pharaoh's heart.....No matter what happened Pharaoh was not going to let them go.....today believers do the same thing...they are not that faithful, have a difficult time, blame God and harden themselves against God.........