Is the Prophet lying?

[KennethC]

Kenneth
How many times can I stumble and still be forgiven? I seriously want to know.

Don't you see how silly it is to put a limit on the grace of God?

I am not putting a limit on God's grace, what I am trying to point out to you and others is that there is a big difference in a stumble and a continuous willful sinning.

Stumble does not mean you constantly commit the same sin/s over and over and over again, it means you mess up from time to time. You still when you confess/repent of your sin/s it has to be a real sincere repentance, which means you can not continue to commit that sin.

We can not use the 70 x 7 passage to excuse a sinful behavior to continue, and that by no means is what that passage is saying !!!

 

[valiant]

I am not putting a limit on God's grace, what I am trying to point out to you and others is that there is a big difference in a stumble and a continuous willful sinning.

Stumble does not mean you constantly commit the same sin/s over and over and over again, it means you mess up from time to time. You still when you confess/repent of your sin/s it has to be a real sincere repentance, which means you can not continue to commit that sin.

We can not use the 70 x 7 passage to excuse a sinful behavior to continue, and that by no means is what that passage is saying !!!

So you are saying that if a Christian backslides and partakes in a number of wilful sins there is no more forgiveness available for him?

Scripture certainly does not say that.

We can certainly use the 70 x 7 passage to indicate that even after wilfully sinning continually for 490 times we can be assured of God's forgiveness if we seek Him.

 

[oyster67]

The writer to the Hebrew was speaking to JEWISH BRETHREN. You are giving your own definition to the term to suit your own convenience. The writer to the Hebrews was NOT addressing ME (even though SOME of what he says applies to me), for I was never in the position he speaks of.

But even when Paul used the term to Gentiles it signified the outward church some of whom would be unsaved. They made the profession of being brethren and were seen and treated as such. That is why some of them had to be warned. . We do the same today. We address our whole church as 'brethren' even though we know that some are unsaved. It is not our position to disinherit our listeners.

It is possible to be a 'brother' without being saved. What it signifies is sympathy with the church by those who profess to be members.

So YOUR definition of who are brethren is false. It was certainly not taught to you by the Holy Spirit.

Early Church = Jewish Brethren.

If you are not in the Church, you need to get in the position of on your knees in prayer. This inspired Scripture is addressing all Christians of all ages.

No, we do not address those who have not been born again as spiritual brothers. There is a world of difference between being on the membership role at a physical church house and being a member of the real Church; the Bride of Christ.

His definition of brethren is correct.

 

[valiant]

Early Church = Jewish Brethren.

If you are not in the Church, you need to get in the position of on your knees in prayer. This inspired Scripture is addressing all Christians of all ages.

No, we do not address those who have not been born again as spiritual brothers. There is a world of difference between being on the membership role at a physical church house and being a member of the real Church; the Bride of Christ.

His definition of brethren is correct.

Thank you God. I didn't know you chatted on this site LOL

But it seems you can't interpret this Scripture correctly, so maybe, just maybe, you are not God after all

I will guarantee that you have called men brother who turned out not to be Christians. So you deny yourself.

LOL how can early church mean Jewish brethren? you are inconsistent.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Jesus said, "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

He also said, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

What about what Jesus said? He said He gave His life for many. Is many all?

Many is ALL! All is not some. Maybe I should start a thread, "Is Jesus a liar?".
(John 12:32 [AKJV])
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.
(1Cor 15:22 [AKJV])
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(Rom 5:15 [20cNT])
But there is a contrast between Adam’s Offence and God’s gracious Gift. For, if by reason of the offence of the one man the whole race died, far more were the loving-kindness of God, and the gift given in the loving-kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, lavished upon the whole race.
(Rom 5:18 [20cNT])
Briefly then, just as a single offence resulted for all mankind in condemnation, so, too, a single decree of righteousness resulted for all mankind in that declaration of righteousness which brings Life.

 

[Dan58]

So to you the Prophet of God is lying?

No, I agree that John observed "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), but I couple that statement with John's preaching "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2). The two go hand in hand. So I disagree with your assumption that every sin is unconditionally excused. Both verses are true, Jesus takes away sin when believers repent of them.

If that condition is not applicable, then there's no problem with me going out and robbing a dozen banks and murdering a few people along the way. All future sin is taken away right? No remorse, conscience, or repentance is necessary. OSAS has that guarantee, my ticket to heaven is punched, I can do no wrong, party hardy. I just think that's a dangerous philosophy to live by, God is not mocked, the hypocrite who willfully sins may have some disappointing news come judgement day. jmo

 

[oyster67]

Thank you God. I didn't know you chatted on this site LOL

But it seems you can't interpret this Scripture correctly, so maybe, just maybe, you are not God after all

I will guarantee that you have called men brother who turned out not to be Christians. So you deny yourself.

LOL how can early church mean Jewish brethren? you are inconsistent.

Being a Jew does not mean you have rejected Jesus as you Lord and Savior, no more than being French or German or American does.

I rejoice that you have found me to be Christ-like, PTL!

 

[KennethC]

So you are saying that if a Christian backslides and partakes in a number of wilful sins there is no more forgiveness available for him?

Scripture certainly does not say that.

We can certainly use the 70 x 7 passage to indicate that even after wilfully sinning continually for 490 times we can be assured of God's forgiveness if we seek Him.

What does our Lord Jesus say about continuing to willfully sin;

Matthew 7:21-23


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ye that work iniquity.

[/FONT]
Work iniquity means they continued to be sinful in nature, as Jesus was showing here these here tried to continue to serve both Him and sins. He did exactly what He said He would do in Matthew 10:33 that if you deny Him, He will deny you. Which is what He did to them by saying He never knew them, that is denying them !!!

 

[shotgunner]

No, I agree that John observed "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), but I couple that statement with John's preaching "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2). The two go hand in hand. So I disagree with your assumption that every sin is unconditionally excused. Both verses are true, Jesus takes away sin when believers repent of them.

If that condition is not applicable, then there's no problem with me going out and robbing a dozen banks and murdering a few people along the way. All future sin is taken away right? No remorse, conscience, or repentance is necessary. OSAS has that guarantee, my ticket to heaven is punched, I can do no wrong, party hardy. I just think that's a dangerous philosophy to live by, God is not mocked, the hypocrite who willfully sins may have some disappointing news come judgement day. jmo

Herein lies the fallacy. Those who believe OSAS cannot exist think that if it's true you get a free license to sin as much as you want, so a saved person can kill, steal, rape and pillage till their hearts content. That's not true at all, saved people don't do that, and it's a false assumption to think they do. It is an impossibility for a saved person to sustain the same relationship to sin that they had before salvation. Yes, they will still sin, but not with the same relationship they had before. Thank God for his Grace!

 

[ember]

Russel, it seems you just have a different take on basic scripture.

Like this quote I found on your thread on the trees in the garden


I'll go out on a limb here and say that you just may way out there...period

The trees spoken of go back to the Garden of Eden, which means they were thousands of years old. These were not men because men are mentioned in the text. These were beyond men and existed in the Garden of Eden. When Adam was told to tend to the trees of the Garden, he was tending to teachers who bore fruit [teachings]. When Eve brought Adam fruit to eat, it was teachings. The trees are angelic beings who are over countries and existed from the time of the Garden of Eden.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

I am not putting a limit on God's grace, what I am trying to point out to you and others is that there is a big difference in a stumble and a continuous willful sinning.

Stumble does not mean you constantly commit the same sin/s over and over and over again, it means you mess up from time to time. You still when you confess/repent of your sin/s it has to be a real sincere repentance, which means you can not continue to commit that sin.

We can not use the 70 x 7 passage to excuse a sinful behavior to continue, and that by no means is what that passage is saying !!!

(Ezek 18:26 [AKJV])
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done shall he die.
(Prov 24:16 [AKJV])
For a just man falls seven times, and rises up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
The 70x7 is giving allowance for those who are weak and struggling to achieve, but their heart is set toward God.
Correct! There is willful sinning. Willful sinning is the act of a sinner or the wicked. The sinner can be won back, but the wicked are over the edge.

 

[Magenta]

Many is ALL! All is not some. Maybe I should start a thread, "Is Jesus a liar?".
(John 12:32 [AKJV])
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.
(1Cor 15:22 [AKJV])
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(Rom 5:15 [20cNT])
But there is a contrast between Adam’s Offence and God’s gracious Gift. For, if by reason of the offence of the one man the whole race died, far more were the loving-kindness of God, and the gift given in the loving-kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, lavished upon the whole race.
(Rom 5:18 [20cNT])
Briefly then, just as a single offence resulted for all mankind in condemnation, so, too, a single decree of righteousness resulted for all mankind in that declaration of righteousness which brings Life.

Jesus is the one who said many, not all, in that Scriptural passage. Why ask if He is a liar? That just seems, oh, blasphemous maybe, though I cannot even think of a proper word to call that question, it is just too contemptible to contemplate.

On the other hand I have wondered about this. You know, how every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is LORD. There it is clearly articulated that ALL will confess Jesus as LORD, just as the all men will be drawn to Him and made alive in Him assert. Are you a universalist, then?

 

[shotgunner]

What does our Lord Jesus say about continuing to willfully sin;

Matthew 7:21-23




Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Work iniquity means they continued to be sinful in nature, as Jesus was showing here these here tried to continue to serve both Him and sins. He did exactly what He said He would do in Matthew 10:33 that if you deny Him, He will deny you. Which is what He did to them by saying He never knew them, that is denying them !!!

Jesus said he never knew them, because he never knew them. Look at what the scripture says. They did many mighty works in His name, but He didn't know them. They went about trying to establish their own righteousness by their mighty works in Jesus's name but they had no relationship with Him. Jesus didn't know them because they had relied on themselves rather than on Him.

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus said he never knew them, because he never knew them. Look at what the scripture says. They did many mighty works in His name, but He didn't know them. They went about trying to establish their own righteousness by their mighty works in Jesus's name but they had no relationship with Him. Jesus didn't know them because they had relied on themselves rather than on Him.

He likes to use this out of context to prove they lost salvation...half a dozen people have called him on it and the simple fact that his stance makes Jesus out to be a liar...Jesus said CLEARLY, that he never KNEW them...had they been saved at one time he would have most assuredly KNOWN THEM.......

 

[RussellJBenigno]

So which is it? you seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Did Jesus die for all sin of the whole world or not?

Are you now saying we can lose salvation once we repented? If thats the case, then jesus did not pay for every sin now did he?

You are misunderstanding because your idea of repentance is not the one Jesus uses. Repentance is the act of turning back toward God and is a positive action. It is a 180' turn toward God. Which means we had started with God to begin with and went in another direction. God has reconciled all mankind to Himself [through the death of Christ], but mankind needs to set their direction toward God so they don't walk away from the reconciliation. This is why we who are His servants are given the mission of reconciliation and call men back to their Father [Prodigal Son story the Gospel in a nut shell].

 

[Angela53510]

Why START with the premise that people oppose 'the things of God' (man I dislike that generic what has become a phrase meaning all enclusive spiritual knowledge) without thinking

You start your conversation with me with a statement, in which it appears I am included, that automatically dictates all answers must submit to your conclusions.

Really? I never buy that sort of thing

I would like to know why you refer to John as THE Prophet...instead of patting me on the head and saying :

For our purposes he is The Prophet at the moment. A prophet sent to prepare the way of the Messiah.

I know why John was sent, so don't patronize me, OKAY?

Ember, you are a wonderful person, so don't take this wrong.

John the Baptist, the cousin of Jesus who was sent to prepare the way of the Lord, is NOT the same person as the John, Jesus' beloved disciple who wrote the books of John, 1, 2 & 3 John and Revelation.

How do I know this?

Because John the Baptist was murdered by King Herod in Mark 6:14-29. Long before most of the books John wrote happened, and before he wrote those books, esp. Revelation, which was the last book of the NT and probably written around 90 AD.

It is a common mistake, though. Same name, different person!

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Yes that passage is talking to believers, and not unbelievers who have not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord yet.

Then it goes down to speaking on from verse 22 to 25 about repentance (true heart) and baptism (clear conscious), and keeping our confession in Him without wavering. Push others toward doing good works instead of telling others they are worthless, and also assembling together for exhortation and worshiping.

Then after doing all of that in the faith if we continue to sin willfully (deliberately) there remains no more sacrifice of the Lord to give us remission of sins. For those who continue down that path of deliberate sins are trampling on the Son of God.

Parallel that with Galatians where Paul told those Galatians who left the gospel of Christ to go back to justification by the law, that Christ has become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4).

This is what Hebrews 10:26 is saying that Christ sacrifice is no longer any effect for those who deliberately continue to sin, to give them remission of those sins.

Yes! The Book of Hebrews was written to believers as evidenced by verses encouraging believers in the faith.
(Heb 10:23 [AKJV])
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

 

[KennethC]

Jesus said he never knew them, because he never knew them. Look at what the scripture says. They did many mighty works in His name, but He didn't know them. They went about trying to establish their own righteousness by their mighty works in Jesus's name but they had no relationship with Him. Jesus didn't know them because they had relied on themselves rather than on Him.

They continued to live a sinful lifestyle !!!

That is plain and simple as it clearly shows in that last scripture they continued to work iniquity, which means they continued to be sinful as well. They thought they could serve both Him and their sins both, they found out differently !!!

The mentions of the works they did in His name was a plea after they were told they were not going to get eternal life, just like those in Matthew 25 that asked why they were not getting eternal life. They believed in Jesus but did not walk properly in the faith, and Jesus told those because they denied others they denied Him.

They were not relying on those works to get them into heaven, they were only referring to them because they found that were not going to get eternal life.

Did Jesus say in His response it was because of trying to earn salvation ???? No, He said it was because they continued to work iniquity (sinful, lawlessness).

 

[Angela53510]

No, I agree that John observed "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), but I couple that statement with John's preaching "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2). The two go hand in hand. So I disagree with your assumption that every sin is unconditionally excused. Both verses are true, Jesus takes away sin when believers repent of them.

If that condition is not applicable, then there's no problem with me going out and robbing a dozen banks and murdering a few people along the way. All future sin is taken away right? No remorse, conscience, or repentance is necessary. OSAS has that guarantee, my ticket to heaven is punched, I can do no wrong, party hardy. I just think that's a dangerous philosophy to live by, God is not mocked, the hypocrite who willfully sins may have some disappointing news come judgement day. jmo

Once again, I obviously need to point out that John the Baptist, who spoke in Matt 3:2 above, and also in Mark 1, about repenting, is NOT the same person as the John who wrote the books of John, 1,2 &3 John and Revelation.

John the Baptist dies - murdered by Herod, very early in the book of Mark - chapter 6 and Matt 14.

Logic dictates that if he was dead, he did NOT write the book of John, which details past the resurrection, nor the John epistles, which were written after the crucifixion and resurrection, and Revelation which was written around 90 AD.

Basic Bible knowledge!

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Jesus is the one who said many, not all, in that Scriptural passage. Why ask if He is a liar? That just seems, oh, blasphemous maybe, though I cannot even think of a proper word to call that question, it is just too contemptible to contemplate.

On the other hand I have wondered about this. You know, how every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Jesus is LORD. There it is clearly articulated that ALL will confess Jesus as LORD, just as the all men will be drawn to Him and made alive in Him assert. Are you a universalist, then?

No! Just following what's written. Universalism contains the idea that people like Hitler and oboma will be saved no matter what they do. They don't have to do any turning toward God [repentance]. Universalism says that even satan will be restored in the end. The scripture makes it clear satan will be destroyed. So! No ! I am not a universalist.