Beware of Armstrongism

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

2. No conduct that is offensive or counterproductive to fellowship.

We like to welcome all to Christian Chat, but if anyone is not here for fellowship
(or for wanting to know about Christianity), but simply for disrupting fellowship, offending people,
whatever, then that person is not welcome.

you are offending me by asking this question over and over,
you where told several times, but your eyes and ears are not open.

I will not ask again for you to stop harassing me about this question.

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

[SUP]It is significant to me that many who claim the Old Covenant elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, clean and unclean meats and physical circumcision still apply explicitly or implicitly accuse other Christians of being in sin.

The writings of the Apostle Paul indicate that this is not a new thing; those who claim the Old Covenant and ceremonial and ritualistic elements of it continue to apply to New Covenant Christians have been around since his day:

Galatians 4:21-31 21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[SUP][a][/SUP] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now you,[SUP][b][/SUP] brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Another thing that is abundantly clear to me are the ones who are teaching the false gospel, which focuses on these Old Covenant elements rather than placing one's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, rather than other Christians, who they accuse of teaching a false form of Christianity .

Many Sabbathkeepers believe that both Catholics and Protestants are following a false gospel which causes them to worship on Sunday, in violation of the Saturday Sabbath.

These verses are used often by some Sabbathkeepers to indicate that other Christians are following a false gospel:

Galatians 1:6-9 [SUP]6 [/SUP]I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— [SUP]7 [/SUP]not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

These very verses were constantly used within Armstrongism to teach that regular Christianity was teaching a false gospel that was against God's law, particularly the Old Covenant elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, and clean and unclean meats. How could I be so blind as not to see that they in fact were the ones teaching the false gospel that the book of Galatians addresses? Galatians is not about antinomianism; it is about insisting that elements of the Old Covenant apply to New Covenant Christians.

Here are other verses that talk about Judaizers attempting to do the same thing:

Galatians 5:1-12 1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Philippians 3:1-3 1Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

The Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic elements, including the Sabbath, annual festivals and clean/unclean meat laws were meant to draw a distinction between Israel and the surrounding nations. That is one of the reasons why the Old Covenant law was abolished in Christ:

Ephesians 2: 11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Note that the Old Covenant law was abolished to unite both Jews and Gentiles. It does not say that the Gentiles were required to observe the Old Covenant law; it says that the Old Covenant law was abolished.

It was meant, in part, to distinguish Israel from the neighboring nations, and it has this same effect in the body of Christ. Those who are "Torah Observant" accuse those who are not of being in sin, either explicitly or implicitly, due to these ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Sabbath, annual festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws.

I know this myself because I judged non-Sabbathkeepers, and everyone outside of my group, as being unsaved and still in their sins and following a false Christianity due to the teachings of Armstrongism. That's something I've repented of, and I will never again be associated with any Sabbathkeeping group for this reason.

Other groups may not go to the extent that I did with total denial of the salvation of others, but they infer that they are living in sin and are less obedient and pleasing to God than the non-Torah observer.

I would encourage everyone to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and not be caught up in this error of the Galatians. This error is being taught by groups such as Armstrongite churches, Seventh Day Adventists, and many Hebrew Roots groups.

I believe the bigger danger is some groups within the Hebrew Roots Movement. My understanding is that the roadmap in many cases leads to individuals accepting full Judaism and denying any Christian profession they had. This problem has been commented upon by Dr. Michael Brown and others. Some believers ultimately end up denying the Trinity and the full deity of Jesus Christ in favor of a Unitarian Monotheism view of God's nature. In addition, they begin to deny the writings of the Apostle Paul (which are obviously in conflict with their views) and accept false writings such as the Kabbala.

I would suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff if anyone is troubled by those who claim these elements of the Old Covenant still apply. It is very good at covering the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

Re: In defence of Armstrongism

since Armstrongism is dead, and has no defence,

I think it fair to here there side, from one of there main groups.

https://www.facebook.com/PhiladelphiaTrumpet

disclamer:I have never been in any of these groups church
by the way, and not indorcing it , but showing the other side.

They give a very good view what is going on in the world,
and would suggest this to anyone willing to hear, like this one

https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/12819.18.0.0/pope-calls-for-new-world-government

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

Re: In defence of Armstrongism

The site that is referenced in this post is one of the cultic groups that claims Herbert Armstrong's mantle of authority now.

As mentioned above, they deny the Trinity, require Sabbathkeeping, festival observance and clean/unclean meat law observance as a condition of salvation, and believe that they are God beings in embryonic state to be born into the Godhead at the resurrection.

I wouldn't recommend giving them the time of day. They are just one of about a dozen Armstrongite groups claiming Herbert Armstrong's prophetic and apostolic office. He declared himself to be an apostle on the same order as the Twelve and the apostle Paul, and said he was the Elijah to Come just prior to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. He also prophecied Christ's return in 1975..didn't happen..false prophet.

These guys are just a bunch of Armstrong clones.

prove-all said:

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

I would recommend you sparkman, to read this I just found,
something I will have to read also, to see what it says in this artical here

Herbert Armstrong: He Was Right

https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/...an-catholicism/herbert-armstrong-he-was-right

disclamer:I have never been in any of these groups church
by the way, and not indorcing it , but showing the other side.

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

I have reported this posting of material from Armstrongite sources.

prove-all said:

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

sparkman said:

are you afried of people hearing the other side of the debate.

you started this thread to bash them, is it not only fair to hear what is there view?

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

Why don't you post links to articles where they claim they are God beings in embryonic form, to become members of the Godhead in the resurrection?

Or links to the articles where they call Protestant Christianity a counterfeit Christianity?

prove-all said:

convallaria · Jul 11, 2015

Willie-T said:

Hi Willie T
I believe cult membership entails abuse in many forms. It could be that he is still experiencing triggers from his bad experience which make him fearful of and sensitive to the issues he listed. Speaking as one who suffered other kinds of abuse, it does make everything look black...particularly when you are coming out of it

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

sparkman said:

mabe since you where ten years in this so called colt,
you never heard of there view of [Our Awesome Universe Potential] booklet?

do you really what me to post more links, so you can tell on me again,

is this a trick question?

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

No, I don't want you to post more links. I wouldn't go to them anyways. I've had enough of deception. Jesus is enough for me, not the deranged teachings of an ignorant man.

prove-all said:

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

here is my former posts on this subject, you must have missed

#27
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hy-did-god-create-universe-2.html#post2157068

prove-all said:

#19
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117074-why-did-god-create-universe.html#post2156984
the universe, the world to come, I could only imange..

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. …
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host
of them by the breath ofHis mouth. … For He spoke, and it was
done; He commanded, and it stood fast...........read more

#20
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117074-why-did-god-create-universe.html#post2156985
How can scientists never consider the possibility that God created all of this?
“[T]heir eyes they have closed” (Matthew 13:15).
These scientists are studying God’s creation—and their eyes are closed!
They choose to exalt the creation above the magnificent Creator.................read more

#21
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hy-did-god-create-universe-2.html#post2156988
In the first chapter, the Moffatt translation of the Bible renders the
Greek word translated “all things” as “the universe.”
In other words, for those willing to believe what God says, He says that
He has decreed the entire universe—with all its galaxies, its countless suns
and planets—everything—will be put under man’s subjection.......................read more

#22
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hy-did-god-create-universe-2.html#post2156991

In Isaiah 51:16, God says, “And I have put my words in thy mouth,
and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand,
that I may (plant the heavens), and lay the foundations of the earth,
and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.”......................read more

sorry if it offends anyone, but I can only imagine..........................

sparkman · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

I see you're back to posting things from Armstrongite cult websites:

https://www.thetrumpet.com/literature/read/6532.6.0.4/why-the-universe?print

prove-all said:

here is my former posts on this subject, you must have missed

#27
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hy-did-god-create-universe-2.html#post2157068

#19
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117074-why-did-god-create-universe.html#post2156984
the universe, the world to come, I could only imange..

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. …
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host
of them by the breath ofHis mouth. … For He spoke, and it was
done; He commanded, and it stood fast...........read more

#20
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117074-why-did-god-create-universe.html#post2156985
How can scientists never consider the possibility that God created all of this?
“[T]heir eyes they have closed” (Matthew 13:15).
These scientists are studying God’s creation—and their eyes are closed!
They choose to exalt the creation above the magnificent Creator.................read more

#21
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hy-did-god-create-universe-2.html#post2156988
In the first chapter, the Moffatt translation of the Bible renders the
Greek word translated “all things” as “the universe.”
In other words, for those willing to believe what God says, He says that
He has decreed the entire universe—with all its galaxies, its countless suns
and planets—everything—will be put under man’s subjection.......................read more

#22
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hy-did-god-create-universe-2.html#post2156991

In Isaiah 51:16, God says, “And I have put my words in thy mouth,
and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand,
that I may (plant the heavens), and lay the foundations of the earth,
and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.”......................read more

sorry if it offends anyone, but I can only imagine..........................

prove-all · Jul 11, 2015

Re: in defence of Armstrongism

sparkman said:

-you asked me to post info on it , only happy to oblige you, even made that disclamer.

[Why don't you post links to articles where they claim they are God beings in embryonic form,
to become members of the Godhead in the resurrection?]

Budman · Jul 11, 2015

sparkman said:

I'm sorry it took me so long to reply. I just rediscovered the thread.

I was a member from 1982-1986. It seems the spell was broken soon after HWA died.

sparkman · Aug 10, 2015

I found this article which came from the Lakeland Ledger, May 12, 1984.

The evidence regarding the incestuous activities of Herbert Armstrong related to the molestation of his daughter, Beverly.

If I had known about this, I would have never become a member of Worldwide Church of God. I heard rumors of this, but to find the evidence is shocking. I thought these things were just rumors.

I'd suggest that anyone considering an Armstrongite group like Restored Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, or United Church of God to consider the source of their doctrine. A man of such low moral integrity would not be used by God to restore the "true faith" as he claimed to.

Magenta · Aug 10, 2015

God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise;
God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Powemm · Aug 10, 2015

1 corrinthians 1:25

Magenta · Aug 10, 2015

Powemm said:

For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom,
and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

sparkman · Aug 10, 2015

Magenta said:

That's a misapplication of the concept. Child molesters lose their right to proclaim the gospel and to be a pastor.

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