Sanctification

[Michael47]

You are poorly informed to the extreme of what the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches.This is the Gospel:

Titus 2, NASB
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Titus 3
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Note particularly those last three verses. Works have nothing to do with it, good or bad. It is justification by grace -- nothing else! You foolishly deny what the Bible teaches in favor of a "gospel" of men who want to mislead you into legalism and ungodly doctrines.

As to the deeds accomplished in the first eight verses quoted above, note the first words: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men ... " It is not by anything we do, but by God's grace that we are saved. Look at v. 14: " ... who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed ... "

That's not just some empty promise! That is Jesus promise to us! "Every lawless deed" literally means EVERY! LAWLESS! DEED! None stand! Past! Present! Future! Wiped away by the blood of Christ! AND YET YOU DENY THIS?? How foolish do you need to be, to ignore God's very words?

The rest of v. 14: " ... and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." "Zealous" -- the Greek zeloteß (zelotes): "One burning with zeal; a zealot; used of God as jealous of any rival and sternly vindicating his control; most eagerly desirous of, zealous for, a thing." There is no requirement for obedience in that passage, only zealousness for a God so great that, by His grace He reached down and saved us when we did not deserve it!

Romans 5
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

Perhaps you can tell me why a God so great that He would save us even "while we were yet sinners" would then cast aside when we act like we naturally are? Your "gospel" is foolishness!

Salvation has been redefined, in their minds, to being some abstract concept or notion. This abstract concept or notion is premised purely on this invention of "Jesus paying the price owed" (which is not in the Bible).[/quote[]You've just denied the Gospel as clearly stated in God's word and therefore disqualified yourself from having any ability to participate in this discussion.

John 19
30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. ​

I know you've heard what I'm about to post said before, but what I've emboldened and underlined above tells me this is another biblical truth you unreasonably reject. The Greek to telestai (to telestai) translates to the English "It is finished!' But, it also is seen written across ancient Roman tax bills -- ironically, in red ink! -- to mean "paid in full." Tell me, Skin, what was He saying when He said those words from the cross?

This is what always happens when God’s people get their eyes off the basic truth of the gospel. The simplicity of the message of the cross does not split Christians apart. To the contrary, it binds them together. It is the glue that unites the church. Yet here you are, among others, being divisive, attempting to persuade us that sinless perfection in not only possible, but necessary. You lie, because you yourself have been lied to by others. Shake off the scales from your eyes! Awaken to the light!

You prattle on about "the service of sin" and can't even find that phrase in the Bible. "The service of sin" is not possible in the Christian. Sin is possible, but not the "service" of of it. Service, in the Bible and in the sense to which you refer to it, is latreia (latreia) refers only to the service and worship of God. Forms of it refer to public service, such as a tax collector or government official.

You accuse Christians of being able to alternately love Jesus and serve Him, and then offer that same kind of service to sin? Worship sin? Live sin? It is an ignorant thought, devoid of any knowledge of the action of the Holy Spirit within the true believer. In short, with a believer, it is impossible to be so double-minded, as James would call him/her.

Yet Christians do sin. That much is clear in John's first epistle.

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;​

John says he is writing to that believers may not sin, but follows that with " ... if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father ... " and He is Christ Jesus. So again, Skin, your "gospel" is sadly lacking in biblical truth. For it is obvious that Jesus Christ is not an Advocate for the sinning unbeliever. He must be an Advocate, therefore, to the believing Christian who falters. Making you dead wrong.

You have no response for this. I already know that. You will bluster, misquote or quote out of context, obfuscate, twist, even lie. But you have no response. Again, shake off the scales from your eyes! Awaken to the light! Be saved! For at this moment, you are not.

If someone is "Zealous for good works" why are they accused of a works salvation?

 

[KennethC]

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and wherein ye stand ;
2 By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:




that is the gospel message which saves; to believe in Jesus. I do my best and He does the rest, not my fiflthy rag righteousness.

Yes but the parts of that they maybe quoted but still seem to get overlooked are these:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye havereceived , and wherein ye stand ;
2 By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed invain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


In which we stand and believed in vain parts is in reference to the difference of those who hear the truth and act on it, or those who don't act on it are the one's who believed in vain.

We can not take this passage and the one's in John and say simply believe, for you also have to take Luke 6:46-49, James 1:21-27, and 1 John 2-4 also into account.

 

[psalm6819]

Ok....tho the questions are still unanswered

What questions do you have? I came to CC for encouragement and fellowship.

 

[BarlyGurl]

What questions do you have? I came to CC for encouragement and fellowship.

>>>>Seems to me Psalm, If you have the HS and a Pastor which you feel is adequate... then you have no reason to be commenting here. Why are you even enjoining yourself to the discussion? Looks like it is just to oppose those who recognize "the body" extends beyond themselves and whatever local corporate leader you infer we should be under submission to????<<<<

 

[seed_time_harvest]

When it comes to salvation it is by grace through faith and then there is sanctification/living holy which a born-again person will seek in order to purify themselves, but JESUS said first make the cup clean on the inside and of course only GOD can clean the inside.

Some look at the scriptures in error trying to make our salvation dependent on what we do in the flesh, but JESUS said first make the cup clean on the inside.

A person that has received salvation won't willfully sin(we love GOD because he first loved us) they will seek to purify themselves talking about sanctification in the body and our bodies have not been glorified yet.

If a person has a desire to willfully sin then I would say that they don't have this hope in them.


and under grace when we sin and confess our sin then GOD is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[psalm6819]

>>>>Seems to me Psalm, If you have the HS and a Pastor which you feel is adequate... then you have no reason to be commenting here. Why are you even enjoining yourself to the discussion? Looks like it is just to oppose those who recognize "the body" extends beyond themselves and whatever local corporate leader you infer we should be under submission to????<<<<[/QUOTE

I'm sorry that you are still angry. if you choose not to accept my apology but continue to attack it is better that I just not respond.

 

[psalm6819]

Yes but the parts of that they maybe quoted but still seem to get overlooked are these:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye havereceived , and wherein ye stand ;
2 By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed invain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


In which we stand and believed in vain parts is in reference to the difference of those who hear the truth and act on it, or those who don't act on it are the one's who believed in vain.

We can not take this passage and the one's in John and say simply believe, for you also have to take Luke 6:46-49, James 1:21-27, and 1 John 2-4 also into account.

I like and respect you, Ken, so we will have to agree to disagree.

I would just say this the Father sacrificed the most precious thing, Jesus for us, so we could be His sons and daughters.

After paying that do you think we have no value?

When your children are disobedient do you disown them? I think not, we correct them with love as many times as necessary.

God has greater love for us than we have for our children, 'we can forgive our children for their mistakes and even disobedience.

Do we have greater love than the Father?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

If someone is "Zealous for good works" why are they accused of a works salvation?

Reread the post. The answer is contained therein. Specifically, at the definition of zelotes in the Greek.

 

[shotgunner]

Yes but the parts of that they maybe quoted but still seem to get overlooked are these:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye havereceived , and wherein ye stand ;
2 By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed invain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


In which we stand and believed in vain parts is in reference to the difference of those who hear the truth and act on it, or those who don't act on it are the one's who believed in vain.

We can not take this passage and the one's in John and say simply believe, for you also have to take Luke 6:46-49, James 1:21-27, and 1 John 2-4 also into account.

Yes, salvation is more than simply believing. Even the demons believe and tremble. True faith will produce works but works is only a fruit of true faith. Works are not an ingredient necessary to saving faith.

Look at these scriptures and perhaps they will shed some light.

Romans 4:1-13King James Version (KJV)4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Abraham wasn't justified because of his obedient act of circumcision. Abraham was Justified by faith alone. His righteous act was a result of his justification, a seal of his righteousness, which was his before he performed the act.

 

[Skinski7]

Let us reason together Vigilant and anyone else who chooses to read this.

You are poorly informed to the extreme of what the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches.This is the Gospel:

Titus 2, NASB
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Titus 3
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
​

Note particularly those last three verses. Works have nothing to do with it, good or bad. All you are doing is snipping portions of scripture, heaping rhetoric on those portions, whilst blatantly ignoring other portions.

Jesus Himself said...

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Strive - agōnizomai
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

Your implication puts Paul in opposition to Jesus even though elsewhere in Paul's writings he wrote...
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul wrote that statement in the context of how he approaches people with the Gospel both Jew and Gentile. He speaks of how he STRIVES (the same word as Jesus used and he specifically states that he does so in order to obtain an incorruptible crown. He speaks of keeping his body under subjection lest by any means, even though he has preached to others, he be rejected.

People like you Vigiliant completely ignore that and you focus in on this "not of works" and you dig through the Bible trying to find snippets that support you.

In Titus we read (from your own quote)...

Titus 2, NASB
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

Here we read that the grace of God has appeared to all men, the grace of God which brings salvation to all men. Shall we snip verse 11 and use it to promote universal salvation? Of course not. This grace brings with it INSTRUCTION, we are instructed to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age.

To deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live righteously involves DOING SOMETHING Vigilante. Jesus preached DOING.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

I have quoted those words of Jesus in this thread previously and they are simply IGNORED by people like you. You don't comment on them at all. You obviously reject those words as having anything to do with your eternal destiny.

It is not legalism to suggest that we have to DO what Jesus commanded people to do.

Obedience to Jesus is not legalism. The legalism criticised in the Bible was the contention that people had to keep the rites and rituals, rules and regulations of the Mosaic law. In Galatians Paul is addressing people who were promoting physical circumcision as being something mandatory. Yet people like you stretch the context of legalism, as expressed in the Bible, in such a broad way where you mean DO NOTHING. Jesus nor Paul preached DO NOTHING.

Jesus preached HEAR AND DO. Why don't you? Why are you opposed to HEAR AND DO? You are opposed to the very teachings of Jesus.

This quote from Paul...

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

....in no way cancels out HEAR AND DO. Paul is speaking that the mercy that God offers is undeserved. God has not saved anyone simply because of something they previously did, no, God has saved people according to His mercy via the MEANS of regeneration and renewal. Yet you snip those verses and imply with rhetoric that it means we DO NOTHING which is a complete contradiction of not only Paul but also of Jesus.

Jesus preached HEAR AND DO. That means we are to listen to the instructions of Jesus and then DO them if we want to live. It is that simple.

It is justification by grace -- nothing else! Justification by grace simply means that the forgiveness of sins is via the transformation wrought through the power of the grace of God. It does not mean God forgives you whilst you are still wicked.
God reckons genuine faith as righteousness because a genuine faith is representative of a condition of the heart, it is a state of wholehearted faithfulness of God. This is why Paul connects the faith that is reckoned as righteousness (Rom 4:5) with a walk of faith (Rom 4:12) and also mentions that faith, instead of voiding the law, upholds it (Rom 3:31).

Yet you contend for the very opposite because you promote a mere MENTAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of something apart from any connected DOING. That is why you have argued previously that one can engage in willful rebellion to God and still be reckoned as righteousness because of this grace you believe in. Are you willing to refute my contention here? Go ahead.

I contend that you believe that a Christian can willful engage in rebellion to God (ie. do evil knowingly) and still remain in a justified state. In other words you believe that a Christian can sin and not surely die because you think grace somehow cloaks that sin. Would you care to DIRECTLY refute my contention of what you believe here?

You foolishly deny what the Bible teaches in favor of a "gospel" of men who want to mislead you into legalism and ungodly doctrines. Be specific please. What legalism do I preach? I contend that people MUST forsake all known evil and yield themselves to the righteousness of God through the Spirit whereby they love one another with pure hearts fervently. Is that really ungodly to you?

I contend that a fornicator, thief, liar, cheat, pornographer, pornography viewer, child molester, fraudster, lover of pleasure more than a lover of God, etc. MUST forsake their wickedness BEFORE God will forgive them. Is such a thing really ungodly to you?

I contend that we must lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness in order to receive the implanted word which can save our souls. Is that ungodly to you?

As to the deeds accomplished in the first eight verses quoted above, note the first words: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men ... " It is not by anything we do, but by God's grace that we are saved. Look at v. 14: " ... who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed ... " Yes the grace of God has APPEARED freely to all men. Yet Paul writes...

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

In other words the grace of God can be received in vain, or to no working effect. There must be a WORKING TOGETHER WITH GOD in order for grace to be effective unto salvation. That is what "saved by grace through faith means."

It was MANDATORY for Noah to build the Ark. If Noah has simply "trusted in God" and yet disobeyed the instruction to build the Ark he would have drowned even though God's grace had been freely provided.

Why do you ignore that and contend for "DO NOTHING"?

Jesus preached HEAR AND DO, not DO NOTHING. Yet you disregard the words of Jesus and contend for the opposite. Why? Have you lost all semblance of reasoning capacity? Is it possible to reason this out? Jesus did in fact preach "hear and do," is it not logical that that implies that we have to DO something as opposed to DO NOTHING?

That's not just some empty promise! That is Jesus promise to us! "Every lawless deed" literally means EVERY! LAWLESS! DEED! None stand! Past! Present! Future! The Bible does not say that future or present ongoing sins are already forgiven anywhere. You say this and it is only rhetoric. Somehow you take Tit 2:14 and are use it as a proof text that future sins are forgiven in advance. To do that you have surely thrown all reason to the wind.

Peter wrote...

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

The purging is of old sins. The context of that passage is "adding to the faith" ie. an ongoing growing in grace and knowledge.

Your contention is that future sins are forgiven in advance yet the Bible says...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Perhaps you justify ignoring that Proverb because it is Old Testament. Well here is a New Testament passage...Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Here Paul has connected...

Walking after the Spirit <---------> No Condemnation <---------> Being In Christ Jesus. <--------> Righteousness of the law fulfilled unwardly.

You cannot insert ongoing wickedness in that context and somehow still contend for "no condemnation" and remain in the realm of reason.


Wiped away by the blood of Christ! AND YET YOU DENY THIS?? How foolish do you need to be, to ignore God's very words? You are the one who ignores the Bible because you treat it like a menu and snip little portions. Paul wrote this...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Beign redeemed from every lawless deed is a reference to escaping the service of sin. In other words Jesus rescues us from an enslaved state to sin and purifies us whereby we have become a very peculiar people who are zealous for doing the right thing.

The rest of v. 14: " ... and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." "Zealous" -- the Greek zeloteß (zelotes): "One burning with zeal; a zealot; used of God as jealous of any rival and sternly vindicating his control; most eagerly desirous of, zealous for, a thing." There is no requirement for obedience in that passage, only zealousness for a God so great

Vigilant, Paul wrote...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Do you really think that an individual redeemed from all iniquity, made pure, and is thus zealous of rightousness can be in disobedience to God?

Think about that. Peter connected the purification of the soul to obedience to the truth...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Yet here you are contending that Tit 2:14 has no implaction towards obedience being a requirement? You have thrown reason right out the window.

Jesus preached HEAR AND DO and HEAR AND DO implies OBEDIENCE TO JESUS.

Yet here you are contending against any notion that we MUST obey Jesus and you call it legalism.

 

[Skinski7]

...cont...

that, by His grace He reached down and saved us when we did not deserve it!

Romans 5
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

Perhaps you can tell me why a God so great that He would save us even "while we were yet sinners" would then cast aside when we act like we naturally are? Your "gospel" is foolishness. Jesus Christ died for us (died for Paul and his contemporaries as you and me were not alive then). Jesus dying for Paul and his contempories whilst they were still in rebellion to God does not mean that future sins are forgiven in advance, it simply means God took the initiative in providing a means of salvation to sinners.

We ACT how we CHOOSE to act. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldy lusts and to live soberly, uprightly in the present age. If you want to "act wicked" and then make an excuse that "that is how I naturally am" then you have obviously never repented of your evil and just choose to continue in it. The Bible speaks of laying aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, have you done that Vigiliant? This is the kind of question I often ask people like you which is generally NEVER answered. I wonder if you will directly answer it this time.

Did you lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive the implanted word which saves the soul? Did you hear and do?

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Salvation has been redefined, in their minds, to being some abstract concept or notion. This abstract concept or notion is premised purely on this invention of "Jesus paying the price owed" (which is not in the Bible).

You've just denied the Gospel as clearly stated in God's word and therefore disqualified yourself from having any ability to participate in this discussion.

John 19
30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. ​

"It is finished" is not "price paid that was owed." Here again is just another example of the Bible saying one thing whilst you imply another. "It is finished" was a reference to this...

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

The death of Jesus HAD NOTHING to do with paying any sin debt that was owed. God freely forgives the sins of those who truly come clean before Him and repent. An individual paying your fine on your behalf does not mean that the fine was forgiven, it means the fine was paid in full.

The Bible says not a word anywhere about Jesus paying any sin debt owed on behalf of the sinner. Believe the Bible, not the rhetoric and stories made up by men.

I know you've heard what I'm about to post said before, but what I've emboldened and underlined above tells me this is another biblical truth you unreasonably reject. The Greek to telestai (to telestai) translates to the English "It is finished!' But, it also is seen written across ancient Roman tax bills -- ironically, in red ink! -- to mean "paid in full." Tell me, Skin, what was He saying when He said those words from the cross?I told you and I will again quote what the Bible specifically states...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus died in order to become the mediator of the New Testament a Testament dedicated with His blood. The New Testament offers redemption of the transgressions committed under the Old Covenant (ie. Rom 3:25 - old sins) and is the means by which we can approach God and be reconciled, hence...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Yet that is not the Gospel you contend for is it?

Instead you contend that Jesus "paid your sin debt" as your substitute whereby all sins, past, present and future are PAID FOR IN FULL and thus ongoing sin and future sin can no longer condemn you. Even through the Bible does not teach any such thing anywhere, proven by the fact that you nor anyone can quote a single Bible passage, you are still committed to this elaborate way of teaching that one can sin and not surely die.

This is what always happens when God’s people get their eyes off the basic truth of the gospel. The simplicity of the message of the cross does not split Christians apart. To the contrary, it binds them together. It is the glue that unites the church. Yet here you are, among others, being divisive, attempting to persuade us that sinless perfection in not only possible, but necessary. You are the one that brings up "sinless perfection" as a strawman when I imply no such thing.

I contend for heart purity and a walk according to the Spirit through repentance and faith. You are the one who tries to smear such a thing as this thing you call "sinless perfection."

God does not require "sinless perfection." God requires sincerity and purity of heart. God requires that we love Him with all our heart, soul and mind and that we love our neighbour as ourselves. That is what God requires. Why not address that instead of some strawman phrase utilised to misdirect and belittle?
You lie, because you yourself have been lied to by others. Shake off the scales from your eyes! Awaken to the light!

You prattle on about "the service of sin" and can't even find that phrase in the Bible.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

"The service of sin" is not possible in the Christian. Sin is possible, but not the "service" of of it. Service, in the Bible and in the sense to which you refer to it, is latreia (latreia) refers only to the service and worship of God. Forms of it refer to public service, such as a tax collector or government official.

The Greek term is doulos it it can be found in...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The term also pertains to serving God...

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Paul connects "service" to "obedience." We belong to whom we yield ourselves to. Yet you claim that the "service of sin" is not found in the Bible?

You accuse Christians of being able to alternately love Jesus and serve Him, and then offer that same kind of service to sin? No I have not. Quote me making that accusation.

You just make things up.

I contend that a genuine Christian serves God and DOES NOT serve sin. In other words, I contend that a genuine Christian does not yield themselves to unrighteosuness but instead yields themselves to righteousness. In other words a Christian HEARS AND DOES as opposed to HEARING AND NOT DOING.

We cannot serve two masters. An individual who yields themselves to sin yet thinks they are serving Jesus is a deceived non-Christian for we are slaved to whom we obey, either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. We either obey God or we don't, there is no middle ground.

Worship sin? Live sin? It is an ignorant thought, devoid of any knowledge of the action of the Holy Spirit within the true believer. In short, with a believer, it is impossible to be so double-minded, as James would call him/her.

Yet Christians do sin. That much is clear in John's first epistle.

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
​

That is a contradiction. To claim that one cannot be double minded and then to claim that a Christian can engage in sin implies double mindedness. Sin is a CHOICE. Getting drunk or fornicating is a CHOICE and involves free agency conducted through the MIND. In order to yield oneself to sin one must have their MIND set to do so. One does not trip over and engage in adultery, it is an act of the will.

The context opf 1Joh 2 is clearly that of SINS OF IGNORANCE not rebellion to God. Jesus did not cleanse us that we can engage in rebellion to God with some kind of license to get away with it upon a mere confession. Jesus cleanses people so that they may remain clean, that is what a redemption from all iniquity and being made pure is all about.

People like you selectively snip portions of 1John out of their context and use it to justify ongoing wickedness. The context of 1Joh 1:8-10 is COMING CLEAN WITH GOD and WALKING IN THE LIGHT, not ongoing wickedness. In other words, John is teaching that in order to be truly cleansed of our sins we have to come clean with God about them, not hide them. He is not teaching that a Christian will always be wicked, that is ridiculous.

We have an advocate for wrong done through ignorance, not for willful sin. The Bible plainly states that if we willfully sin after recieving a knowledge of the truth, having been sanctified, that no sacrifice remains for sin. You teach the opposite that the sacrifice always remains and that future sins are forgiven in advance. You don't believe the Bible.

A Christian is manifest to the world by the very fact that they do not sin (ie. willful sin) and instead DO righteousness. It is the children of the devil who DO unrighteousness because they are slaves to whom they obey (Rom 6:16).

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

You don't believe the above passage and nor do very many professing Christians.

The above passage speaks of the children of God ARE MANIFEST in that they DO NOT COMMIT SIN. That means the children of God do not yield themselves to unrighteousness. The children of God are a NEW CREATION and WALK ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT whereby the righteousness of God is fulfilled in them. CONDUCT is a reflection of the inward state of the heart. This is what Jesus was speaking about in the Sermon on the Mount, we have to be PURE if we are going to see God.

Modern Christianity is totally perverted and preaches a CLOAK for ongoing wickedness. That is why the churches are full of sinful conduct. The gospel being preached in the churches is false. True gatherings of real Christians are very few and far between. The vast majority of professing Christian's are sin defenders who believe in a magic provisional cloak which they think covers their ongoing wretchedness before God. You Vigilant are clearly one of them and I am trying to appeal to your reason.

I have been very specific in addressing all your points to demonsrtate that everything you contend for is infected with deadly error.

John says he is writing to that believers may not sin, but follows that with " ... if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father ... " and He is Christ Jesus. So again, Skin, your "gospel" is sadly lacking in biblical truth. For it is obvious that Jesus Christ is not an Advocate for the sinning unbeliever. He must be an Advocate, therefore, to the believing Christian who falters. Making you dead wrong.

Your issue here is that you make no distinction between "willful sin" (ie. rebellion) and "sins of ignorance." Thus you advocate that ALL SIN is covered by the magic provision you believe in (ie. past, present and future sin paid for). The Bible states that no sacrifice remains if we willfully sin after coming to a knowledge of the truth (cleansed and sanctified) but only a fearful expectation of judgement. You cannot engage in rebellion to God and not surely die, the rebellious will be destroyed and that is a certainty.

You have no response for this. I already know that. You will bluster, misquote or quote out of context, obfuscate, twist, even lie.

Jesus was a preacher of righteousness and he preached HEAR AND DO. You are not a preacher of righteousness and you do not preach HEAR AND DO. YOu contend for "confess, trust and recieve" and "sin you will and sin you must." That is not a misquote and that is not a lie, it is not obfuscation, it is not twisting, and it is not blustering. You use such terms, I suspect, as an attempt to pre-emptively negate any response I would perhaps make. Well that is on you.

But you have no response. Again, shake off the scales from your eyes! Awaken to the light! Be saved!For at this moment, you are not.

...cont...

 

[Skinski7]

Also, just to repeat as I would like you to directly answer it...

We ACT how we CHOOSE to act. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldy lusts and to live soberly, uprightly in the present age. If you want to "act wicked" and then make an excuse that "that is how I naturally am" then you have obviously never repented of your evil and just choose to continue in it. The Bible speaks of laying aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, have you done that Vigiliant? This is the kind of question I often ask people like you which is generally NEVER answered. I wonder if you will directly answer it this time.

Did you lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive the implanted word which saves the soul? Did you hear and do?

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


It is questions like that which people like you hide from because they blatantly expose how erroneous it it to contend that one can be saved and engaged in wickedness at the same time.

 

[KennethC]

Yes, salvation is more than simply believing. Even the demons believe and tremble. True faith will produce works but works is only a fruit of true faith. Works are not an ingredient necessary to saving faith.

Look at these scriptures and perhaps they will shed some light.

Romans 4:1-13King James Version (KJV)4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Abraham wasn't justified because of his obedient act of circumcision. Abraham was Justified by faith alone. His righteous act was a result of his justification, a seal of his righteousness, which was his before he performed the act.

The problem with stating it that way though is that now you would be pitting Paul's words against James, as Apostle James also uses Abraham as an example in his teaching of faith without works is dead.

[h=1]James 2:21-24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only[/h]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

The problem with stating it that way though is that now you would be pitting Paul's words against James, as Apostle James also uses Abraham as an example in his teaching of faith without works is dead.

Which is nothing more than a clear indication you don't understand what James is saying. He teaches not works necessary for faith and salvation, but works as a result of salvation. But you've held to this false teaching for so long, my one little note isn't going to change your mind, just as the dozens if not hundreds of Scriptures I've posted for you haven't changed your mind.

Which leads me to the conclusion regarding your own relationship with Christ that I've reached about Jason, and about Skinski. Truth is spiritually discerned. So be it.

 

[BarlyGurl]

>>>>Seems to me Psalm, If you have the HS and a Pastor which you feel is adequate... then you have no reason to be commenting here. Why are you even enjoining yourself to the discussion? Looks like it is just to oppose those who recognize "the body" extends beyond themselves and whatever local corporate leader you infer we should be under submission to????<<<<[/QUOTE

I'm sorry that you are still angry. if you choose not to accept my apology but continue to attack it is better that I just not respond.

Um... you are the one who is "perceiving" anger... the comment and questions are a legitimate QUERY to your previous comments. You can apologize all you want... but since I have been neither angry nor offended... seems mute. There is NO ATTACK... unless of course that is how you perceive any/all question or comment directed to you which for <whatever> any reason <you perceive> doesn't give you warm fuzzies?

So I thanks for the presumptive and deflective... NON ANSWER.... and no further response regarding the ENTIRE matter is absolutely fine with me.

 

[shotgunner]

The problem with stating it that way though is that now you would be pitting Paul's words against James, as Apostle James also uses Abraham as an example in his teaching of faith without works is dead.

James 2:21-24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only

Yes, but at the same time you can't pit James's words against Paul. You must interpret so that they are both correct and clarify each other to bring a farther understanding than either can alone.


If you look closely into the original texts you will see that James is simply saying that if a man truly has faith that is alive , that faith will produce works.

You have a deep conviction that Christians can't just continue in the same sins with no conviction at all, and no repentance, and call themselves Christians. That is absolutely correct and honorable on your part to want to help them. You are just looking at it the wrong way.

They don't do good works and resist sin to be qualified to be saved. That would be salvation by works and many scriptures clearly state that we are saved by grace through faith. To believe that works are part of salvation rather than a result of it you have to throw away all those scriptures. Again, take the meaning that comes from making all scriptures agree with each other. Christians do good works resist sin because they are saved. Salvation is a heart change to desire the things of God, not just words you repeat so that you can sin all you want and still get to Heaven.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Yes, but at the same time you can't pit James's words against Paul. You must interpret so that they are both correct and clarify each other

Well said.
Scripture should harmonize.

 

[KennethC]

Which is nothing more than a clear indication you don't understand what James is saying. He teaches not works necessary for faith and salvation, but works as a result of salvation. But you've held to this false teaching for so long, my one little note isn't going to change your mind, just as the dozens if not hundreds of Scriptures I've posted for you haven't changed your mind.

Which leads me to the conclusion regarding your own relationship with Christ that I've reached about Jason, and about Skinski. Truth is spiritually discerned. So be it.

James is showing they go hand and hand to prove a true faith in the Lord, as a man who just claims they have faith but their actions show differently then their faith is a dead faith or in other words they have a false profession of faith.

For if a person is truthfully born again and saved their actions will be proof that they are !!!

 

[KennethC]

Yes, but at the same time you can't pit James's words against Paul. You must interpret so that they are both correct and clarify each other to bring a farther understanding than either can alone.


If you look closely into the original texts you will see that James is simply saying that if a man truly has faith that is alive , that faith will produce works.

You have a deep conviction that Christians can't just continue in the same sins with no conviction at all, and no repentance, and call themselves Christians. That is absolutely correct and honorable on your part to want to help them. You are just looking at it the wrong way.

They don't do good works and resist sin to be qualified to be saved. That would be salvation by works and many scriptures clearly state that we are saved by grace through faith. To believe that works are part of salvation rather than a result of it you have to throw away all those scriptures. Again, take the meaning that comes from making all scriptures agree with each other. Christians do good works resist sin because they are saved. Salvation is a heart change to desire the things of God, not just words you repeat so that you can sin all you want and still get to Heaven.

I do not pit James against Paul as if one takes and reads all that Apostle Paul has said then they will see that even he emphasized the fruits of the Spirit that will be evident in all born again believers life.

They go hand and hand with one another as a true faith will be an active faith full of the fruits of the Spirit, yes they are the product of a true faith but they also prove that one's faith is a true faith in the Lord. For if your faith in Jesus is real you will do as the scriptures say; you will be obedient, keep His commandments, follow His teachings, and push people to walking properly in the faith and doing good works also.

There are those around that want to take and just erase the walk in the faith away as not required/needed, but by doing that you go against what the bible says that those who are truly born again their walk will match the faith. We can not continue to act the same way we were before we were born again, and that means one's actions and speech will change because of the Holy Spirit's guidance.

If there is no change than that is clear that the Holy Spirit is not abiding in them guiding them to walk properly in the faith !!!

 

[KennethC]

Well said.
Scripture should harmonize.

Jesus said every branch that does not produce fruit will be cut off and burned.........John 15:2

If those fruits of the Holy Spirit does not follow in one's life that claim they believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior then the bible shows they have a false profession of faith that has no foundation in Him.

Luke 6:46-49 our Lord Jesus gives us two examples, one is a true faith in Him and the other is a false profession of faith in Him.