Sanctification

[Skinski7]

after Paul spends 8-9 verses telling us that we are dead, have died, been crucified, share in death -- we come to Romans 6:11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

why do you think he has to tell us to consider ourselves dead? We have to believe. We have to truly believe that we are dead to sin. If we don't then sin will rule over us.
maybe it's not so obvious?
maybe sin in the flesh still wars against us, trying to deceive us to obey it, even though it has no more dominion over us? Sin is not a substance of the flesh. SIN IS A CHOICE. SIN IS A MORAL ISSUE. Sin is not a flesh issue. We are TEMPTED via the lusts of the flesh but sin involves FREE AGENCY, sin involves CHOICE.

Paul personifies sin in order to give a vivid description to the reader. Just because someone personifies something or describes something in a certain way does not mean it is literal. The sun rises in the morning but it doesn't literally because the earth is turning. Wisdom is personified as a Woman in proverbs, that does not mean that Wisdom is literally a Woman. When Paul speaks of "sin in me" he is speaking of the "strong enslaving desire which overpowers the mind." In other words the sinner is ADDICTED and cannot break free of the addiction despite mentally wanting to.

why should Paul - or anyone else - have to encourage us to rid ourselves of sin, if it is impossible for us to commit any sin in the flesh? Why the strawman? I have never claimed is it impossible to commit any sin in the flesh. Sinning is a CHOICE and we all have the ability to choose. to stumble and serve that dead, carnal nature? Why the strawman? I have never claimed one cannot serve the carnal nature. Serving carnality IS NOT stumbling, it is a choice. The word stumble implies and accident. One does not fornicate or get drunk by accident, it is an act of the will. why encourage me to avoid temptation, unless i will be tempted? WHY THE STRAWMAN? I have never claimed that temptation is ongoing? why do i have an Advocate in my Lord, if i have no need of one? We have an advocate for sins of ignorance. Read the context of 1John chapters 1 and 2.

if i think i am already perfected, maybe i am setting myself up to doubt my Perfector when i find that i "do the things which i do not want to do" Doing things you don't want to do is attributed to the wretched man whom is carnal and sold under sin. Clearly you believe that that salvation of God leaves you carnal and sold under sin, in a totally wretched state. That is an utter denial of the salvation of the Bible. Honestly, what kind of salvation leaves you a slave, carnal, wretched, serving Satan?

Sin has not more dominion over a Christian in the context of righteousness via the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ as opposed to being governed by outward rules and regulations.

You cannot pick and isolate snippers of Paul's writings. Paul is presenting a very thoughtful description of how salvation works.

Romans 6 is the HOW
Romans 7 is the WHY
Romans 8 is the MEANS

In Romans 6 Paul describes the shift from a "service of sin" to a "serving of righteousness" through the new birth. He explains that such a shift involves FAITH ie. BELIEF AND ACTION.

In Romans 7 Paul explains the reason WHY it has to work this way. The law in and of itself is only external instruction which points to righteousness, and in doing so it makes the stark contrast between unrighteousness and righteousness. The wretch is carnal and sold under sin (the very opposite of being saved) and even though the wretch upholds the law of God in his mind he cannot find the MEANS to extricate himself from his wretched predicament (in other words he is a sin addict who hates his addiction).

In Romans 8 Paul explains the MEANS of how salvation works via the Spirit. It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death and those whom walk after the Spirit have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in them. This is exactly what Jesus taught about inward righteousness being wrought through abiding in Him.

The wretched man of Romans 7 is not abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. The wretched man of Romans 7 has not been set free from the law of sin and death and he has not had the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him. The wretched man is CARNAL AND SOLD UNDER SIN.

To make the claim that Paul is speaking, in Romans 7, of the present Christian experience is to grossly distort the writings of Paul as well as to argue in favour of a salvation which leaves one in the service of Satan. It is absurd and one can only attempt to uphold such a view by ignoring much of the Bible and by focusing on a very few isolated verses which are stripped of their context.

 

[slave]

i feel like everything that i do that falls short of God's glory is sin.

now ask me what i think i do that measures up to God's glory (?!)

rather, ask me how great is the mercy of the Lord!!

Or ask yourself how dead are you in sin? That of the cross of Christ's death atoned to you in Gods offering of grace, thru the life you now are in thru Christ. Is your History His? You are not a lava lamp of good and evil co-existing, you are a new man altogether dead to the old one. You had asked earlier, What was the trouble we face in ceasing in sin? It is the reality of the flesh that no longer rules but that Satan appeals to as we have had it's experiential influence over us in the past. It is altogether still a battle. Yet instead of it's inevitable doom over us in debate, it is in an inherent inevitable victory we find ourselves as the alien on Satans temptation, as common to our understanding as it is, is altogether now dead in it's power: we travel thru the moment feeling real battle, but come out the other end with not a touch on us! We need not fight for victory, nor can we, as you would agree, but we need not expect anything short of complete victory either. For as we live in coexistence to Christ in His history of our death and placement unto God, God delivers the victory unscaled. Unblemished and holiness has rendered a testimony. The testimony of Christ's resurrection, in us!~

 

[psalm6819]

Your behaviour is what God is going to judge you on. In other words, what you DO matters.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

If you are a worker of iniquity who "trusts in Jesus" then you will be just one of the MANY who stand rejected by Jesus because you refused to actually repent of evil.

Claims to being "grateful to Jesus and not myself" are irrelevant as to what I was posting about. That is pure misdirection apparently wrought to avoid what I actually wrote. I am grateful to God.

Misdirection? I don't claim to be grateful to Jesus, I am. God judges me in Christ not by your standards

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Ok then, answer this.

Have genuine Christians ceased from the service of sin?

In the spirit?Yes
In the flesh?No

 

[slave]

Misdirection? I don't claim to be grateful to Jesus, I am. God judges me in Christ not by your standards

But God doesn't judge you in Christ unless you are in the Christ He judges, to stand next to him in judgement won't work, to stand next to Him complementing the God who judges won't work. To stand next to Jesus and claim how weak you are and how strong both Jesus and God are won't work. To take Gods free gift of His Son and to apply yourself to His History in believing and receiving Christ unto the new spiritual reality of the new you self esteem God sheds upon you--- will!, but thru the process it will also change you from within before you reach God's pearly gates of judgement. Being grateful to Jesus needs to be thankful for Jesus. For anything in you outside of Him isn't going to work.

 

[shotgunner]

Sin has not more dominion over a Christian in the context of righteousness via the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ as opposed to being governed by outward rules and regulations.

You cannot pick and isolate snippers of Paul's writings. Paul is presenting a very thoughtful description of how salvation works.

Romans 6 is the HOW
Romans 7 is the WHY
Romans 8 is the MEANS

In Romans 6 Paul describes the shift from a "service of sin" to a "serving of righteousness" through the new birth. He explains that such a shift involves FAITH ie. BELIEF AND ACTION.

In Romans 7 Paul explains the reason WHY it has to work this way. The law in and of itself is only external instruction which points to righteousness, and in doing so it makes the stark contrast between unrighteousness and righteousness. The wretch is carnal and sold under sin (the very opposite of being saved) and even though the wretch upholds the law of God in his mind he cannot find the MEANS to extricate himself from his wretched predicament (in other words he is a sin addict who hates his addiction).

In Romans 8 Paul explains the MEANS of how salvation works via the Spirit. It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death and those whom walk after the Spirit have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in them. This is exactly what Jesus taught about inward righteousness being wrought through abiding in Him.

The wretched man of Romans 7 is not abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. The wretched man of Romans 7 has not been set free from the law of sin and death and he has not had the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him. The wretched man is CARNAL AND SOLD UNDER SIN.

To make the claim that Paul is speaking, in Romans 7, of the present Christian experience is to grossly distort the writings of Paul as well as to argue in favour of a salvation which leaves one in the service of Satan. It is absurd and one can only attempt to uphold such a view by ignoring much of the Bible and by focusing on a very few isolated verses which are stripped of their context.

Why do you keep speaking of the righteousness of the law? No one can be made righteous by the law.
Romans 3:19-22King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

The law was given to make sinful men aware of their sins and aware of their need for a savior. Righteousness can only come by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus didn't come to enable us to keep the law. He kept the law for us so that we might be made righteous in Him. Not so we can keep on sinning but for us to accept our new identity created in Him unto good works.


You say
The wretched man of Romans 7 is not abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. The wretched man of Romans 7 has not been set free from the law of sin and death and he has not had the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him. The wretched man is CARNAL AND SOLD UNDER SIN.

How can that be when
Romans 7:22King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man

You see the inward saved ,born again man wants to serve God and delights in his laws.

Romans 7:25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh isn't born again, it's dead because of sin.

Romans 8:1King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

When you see therefore stop to see what it is there for. It is referring to the previous verse 25 of Romans 7.
This man is saved because with the mind he serves the law of God and there is no condemnation. The phrase "who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit" is not even in the original text . Look it up!!

The flesh is sinful and cannot be saved. The problem you have is that you have no understanding of the separation of spirit and flesh. I am not my flesh. My flesh which is sinful is dead but my Spirit which agrees with the law of God is alive and because of that there is no condemnation.

Romans 8:10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[BarlyGurl]

...<head on desk>... all the excuses people have for continuing to walk in sin.... So sad... so very very sad.

 

[KennethC]

Kenneth c wrote.
a handful on here who have said they and we all will continue to sin every single day and even multiple times a day.

I would be one of those but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been a change. For instance, I don't believe that a drug addict and thief could continue to be a drug addict and thief after they were saved, at least not for long. They simply cannot sustain the same relationship to sin that they had before being saved. If they can then there has been no heart change and no salvation.

Possibly the confusion comes about because of our definitions of sin. Paul tell us that anything that is not of faith is sin. I see God as such a Holy and perfect God, so perfect that any sin no matter how insignificant makes us unworthy of Him. That's why we need the sacrifice of Jesus and why we must receive His grace. It's Jesus who makes us worthy.

Yes, I sin every day. When I ignore prayer time, or speak an angry word to my children or wife, thousands of things every day make me a sinner who must rely on grace. I don't go around committing adultery or stealing, nor do I consume the drugs I did before I was saved. It would be impossible for me to be a Christian and still do those things.


We also have to understand that baby Christians have to grow up, to have their minds renewed to God's word, particularly those who were never taught any Christian morals. Not saying morals save, just that for those the Holy Spirit is continually working on them and if they are really saved, they cannot and will not continue to sustain the same relationship to sin that they had before salvation. That's why we can't be so quick to judge. Only God knows the heart and only He sees when those we deem unsaved cry on their knees over their sins desperately wanting to be free.

That is what I have been saying all along, but the thing that gets lost in reading and understanding others is that rebuking and reproving is not judging and condemning if done in the proper manner.

I know some see it that way especially those who do not like their sinful ways to be brought to light, but that rebuking and reproving if done in a gentle manner with the truth from the scriptures is not judging another or condemning them.

I understand the struggling of those who are still weak in the faith, but we can not just sit back and let them continue to think we will always be weak and struggle every day like that. The Holy Spirit is sent to strengthen us where we are weak, that means to help us to stop committing those sinful ways we were in and still struggle with.

If no change in ones life is made from their former self to their new born again nature, than they are not born again as those fruits will show a change in their life.


Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

 

[shotgunner]

That is what I have been saying all along, but the thing that gets lost in reading and understanding others is that rebuking and reproving is not judging and condemning if done in the proper manner.

I know some see it that way especially those who do not like their sinful ways to be brought to light, but that rebuking and reproving if done in a gentle manner with the truth from the scriptures is not judging another or condemning them.

I understand the struggling of those who are still weak in the faith, but we can not just sit back and let them continue to think we will always be weak and struggle every day like that. The Holy Spirit is sent to strengthen us where we are weak, that means to help us to stop committing those sinful ways we were in and still struggle with.

If no change in ones life is made from their former self to their new born again nature, than they are not born again as those fruits will show a change in their life.


Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

You see, I knew we could get on the same page eventually. We just look at the same thing from slightly different angles.

What I try to do is not to always point out sins, though that can also be necessary, but to teach the new birth. When a man is saved, his Spirit is born again, created in the image and likeness of God. Old things have passed away, behold all things have become new, and all things are of God. However he still has the same mind and body as before. He will want to serve God but his thinking about right and wrong hasn't changed and his body still craves the same sinful things as before. This man now has to renew his mind to the Word of God. He will only change his actions when he changes his thinking and he must consider his body dead and not obey it in it's lusts. Sometimes this is a process but he will grow and he will produce fruit if he is connected to the vine.

 

[KennethC]

You see, I knew we could get on the same page eventually. We just look at the same thing from slightly different angles.

What I try to do is not to always point out sins, though that can also be necessary, but to teach the new birth. When a man is saved, his Spirit is born again, created in the image and likeness of God. Old things have passed away, behold all things have become new, and all things are of God. However he still has the same mind and body as before. He will want to serve God but his thinking about right and wrong hasn't changed and his body still craves the same sinful things as before. This man now has to renew his mind to the Word of God. He will only change his actions when he changes his thinking and he must consider his body dead and not obey it in it's lusts. Sometimes this is a process but he will grow and he will produce fruit if he is connected to the vine.

The helper is here among us as we are not alone in this journey in the faith.
Some do not want to accept that guidance and the purpose of the Holy Spirit, for I have even seen some on here say that the Holy Spirit will not guide us in all truth. But that is exactly what John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27 says !!!

I don't deny the struggles that we can still have why walking it the faith and stumbling back in a sin, but what gets under my skin is when I hear some of these others say everyday sinning will always be apart of our life and anybody who disagrees with them is a liar. That is completely false and they can not speak for others like that, because I am one that can state truthfully thanks be to the Holy Spirit I do not sin everyday. I know by Him there have been days that I haven't sinned, but there are times that I also struggle still and I admit that.

 

[posthuman]

...<head on desk>... all the excuses people have for continuing to walk in sin.... So sad... so very very sad.

*sigh* admitting that i find in myself qualities that do not measure up to the unspeakable majesty of the Almighty is not "making excuses" for continuing to walk in sin.

it's just the honest result of brutal self-examination.

& i'm not "picking a verse out of context here and there" (i know you're not one who's said that BarlyGurl) when i point out that the considerable amount of encouragement to keep ourselves from sin and to strive to live righteous lives in the scripture necessarily presupposes that we need encouragement to do such things, and that all the instruction to forgive each other, rebuke and gently restore one another presuppose that we are liable to do things requiring forgiveness, worthy of rebuke, and to find ourselves needful of restoration.

at the end of the day, and at the beginning of the day, we are not saved by what we have done, but by what Christ has done for us.
we have Him to thank, not ourselves, and great cause for joy & gratitude! excuse me if i don't feel like patting myself on the back. honestly, i ought to be groveling instead -

i saw a turtle crossing the road yesterday, and i didn't stop to pick it up and carry it to safety! that was sin. praise God, i went back that way later, and there was no carcass! i believe He kept the poor little guy. i did pray for the thing. i passed a fallen tree blocking the road this morning and didn't stop to clear the path! that was sin; i should have removed what was a danger to others. praise God! i was remorseful, and a few hours later passed by the same way & the tree was still there - the Lord was patient with me and allowed me to assuage the guilt i felt inside by stopping the second time and dragging it out of the path. He even kept the road clear of other traffic while i was doing this, for my safety, though i didn't ask Him to - and also so no one else knew about this good thing i had done, so i wouldn't be tempted by pride.

and a worse thing?
here is a thread where some of my family are trying to encourage us not to sin, and me, oaf that i am, i mess it all up talking about the powerful work of grace that is righteousness by faith, through the cross of Jesus Christ. and i do it in such a blundering, unskillful way, that they get upset instead of thankful, and the whole thing devolves, where it should have been turned into praise. yeah, i blame myself. my foolishness, my inability to speak meeting the standards with which Jesus spoke.

sorry. i continue to fail to measure up to His indescribable glory. wretched man that i am, who will save me from this body of death?

))
praise God, my Redeemer lives!
apalutrosis - i am no longer on the market - now if i can just find my way to the parking lot, i'm expecting a ride to show up . . .

 

[psalm6819]

But God doesn't judge you in Christ unless you are in the Christ He judges, to stand next to him in judgement won't work, to stand next to Him complementing the God who judges won't work. To stand next to Jesus and claim how weak you are and how strong both Jesus and God are won't work. To take Gods free gift of His Son and to apply yourself to His History in believing and receiving Christ unto the new spiritual reality of the new you self esteem God sheds upon you--- will!, but thru the process it will also change you from within before you reach God's pearly gates of judgement. Being grateful to Jesus needs to be thankful for Jesus. For anything in you outside of Him isn't going to work.

The Christ I am in promises to save me and keep me. I believe Him not those who seek to condemn me.

 

[posthuman]

Or ask yourself how dead are you in sin?

100%

That of the cross of Christ's death atoned to you in Gods offering of grace, thru the life you now are in thru Christ. Is your History His? You are not a lava lamp of good and evil co-existing, you are a new man altogether dead to the old one. You had asked earlier, What was the trouble we face in ceasing in sin? It is the reality of the flesh that no longer rules but that Satan appeals to as we have had it's experiential influence over us in the past. It is altogether still a battle.

yes

Yet instead of it's inevitable doom over us in debate, it is in an inherent inevitable victory we find ourselves as the alien on Satans temptation, as common to our understanding as it is, is altogether now dead in it's power: we travel thru the moment feeling real battle, but come out the other end with not a touch on us!

YES

We need not fight for victory, nor can we, as you would agree, but we need not expect anything short of complete victory either. For as we live in coexistence to Christ in His history of our death and placement unto God, God delivers the victory unscaled. Unblemished and holiness has rendered a testimony. The testimony of Christ's resurrection, in us!~

YES!

 

[BarlyGurl]

Posthuman... Nope... I wouldn't say you picked any verses out of context... but your post spring boarding off my comment and specifically addressing me, does seem sorta mocking. If you REALLY feel SINFUL for not helping a turtle across the road... I feel bad for you... alas... I think you are just W_A_Y out of the ballpark in your supposition regarding the intention of MY POST... and that is kinda FUNNY!

 

[KennethC]

The Christ I am in promises to save me and keep me. I believe Him not those who seek to condemn me.

We must remember one of the ways that the Lord Jesus Christ keeps us in Him is by having others call us out when we are walking improperly by the faith. This is not a condemning process if done properly, but it is done in love for correction !!!

 

[posthuman]

Posthuman... Nope... I wouldn't say you picked any verses out of context... but your post spring boarding off my comment and specifically addressing me, does seem sorta mocking. If you REALLY feel SINFUL for not helping a turtle across the road... I feel bad for you... alas... I think you are just W_A_Y out of the ballpark in your supposition regarding the intention of MY POST... and that is kinda FUNNY!

it was more springboarding off of your head on the desk than anything else

and my laziness not going back to quote the specific "picking verses" quip.
more sin! i put a stumblingblock in front of BarlyGurl, and i was slothful!

i honestly did feel convicted about the turtle. i know i should help turtles across the road. i was on flex-time and there was no good reason i couldn't have stopped. i fretted all day and went back that way after work to see if it had been killed there - i don't know why, i guess so i could cry the rest of the way home if it had? but it wasn't - so i sang some praise instead, because God had heard my prayers for it!

i should have known, and not doubted - i had read this that morning:

I know all the birds of the hills, and all that moves in the field is mine.
(Psalm 50:11)
​

but i was afraid He would use it to illustrate to me that i should stop & act when i feel the Spirit prick, and not just continue on my way.

 

[BarlyGurl]

K... that's great post... how about working up that sort of dramatic urgent furvor and concern for your fellow mankind and let God take care of the creeping things?

 

[shotgunner]

The helper is here among us as we are not alone in this journey in the faith.
Some do not want to accept that guidance and the purpose of the Holy Spirit, for I have even seen some on here say that the Holy Spirit will not guide us in all truth. But that is exactly what John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27 says !!!

I don't deny the struggles that we can still have why walking it the faith and stumbling back in a sin, but what gets under my skin is when I hear some of these others say everyday sinning will always be apart of our life and anybody who disagrees with them is a liar. That is completely false and they can not speak for others like that, because I am one that can state truthfully thanks be to the Holy Spirit I do not sin everyday. I know by Him there have been days that I haven't sinned, but there are times that I also struggle still and I admit that.

Kenneth
the only difference of opinion I have with that is that I feel that if I am not every second totally devoted to God with all my strength, all my mind, all my soul, and all my heart, then I'm guilty of sin. The thing is though I'm really free from sin ,but not because I can keep myself free but because of my faith in God's grace. To judge myself free by what I can accomplish is impossible because of my first statement, but to judge myself free and righteous because of Jesus is just and right because of his perfection.

 

[posthuman]

K... that's great post... how about working up that sort of dramatic urgent furvor and concern for your fellow mankind and let God take care of the creeping things?

next time i see a man or woman trying to cross the road, and i know they are unlikely to make it without meeting death, for sure!

(something smells like allegory in here . .)

 

[Utah]

There is a time for reproofing and time for encourage, but both are important.

Reproofing is more appropriate and effective with people who know you well and respect you. If you want to reproof folks on the internet it helps to have a friendly, trusting relationship with them because they'll understand that your words are an act of love rather than Pharisaic vomit. That said however, if you are dealing with Pharisees, then by all means, reproof at will.