To comfort those who speak in tongues

[WoundedWarrior]

I pray that Convallaria does not become discouraged, as a result of our words here.

I have now realized, that Convallaria intended this thread to be an encouragement for those who, like Timothy, have let their hearts sink and need to be uplifted or encouraged.

Now, we have seemingly turned this thread into a debate on whether some spiritual gifts are dead or not.

God: Help us. Soften the hearts of those who use strong words. Help us all to communicate with a kindness and gentleness which comes from your Spirit, Lord.

 

[convallaria]

Hang in there sister -- I know you have a sensitive heart.

Here's the best way I can find to explain this:

I was a part of a local church group for a period of near 20 years (yes, even recalling from childhood).
Not once, did I ever witness anyone speaking in tongues.

In fact, the ONLY time I have ever seen anything that could be referred to as speaking in tongues was when I went on a two-week trip to the island of Hispaniola. I can't remember if I was in Haiti or the Dominican Republic -- but I travelled there with my youth group. We spent time working there and also teaching. I recall meeting at a local church, this local church had a guest speaker (preacher) who was a Baptist (Southern, I think) missionary -- pretty charismatic, if I recall. Anyway, at least two or three of the "Blancos" (white people) who were with that Baptist Mission group began to supposedly "speak in tongues" -- to me (and nearly everyone who was with my group) it sounded like utter nonsense -- almost like a chant -- and none of us saw any purpose or benefit. We simply "wrote it off" or ignored it -- not as a condemnation, but more or less the same as you would if a parent was disciplining their child in public; something that did not go unnoticed, but was none of our business.

I am not one to judge these Baptist Mission people who were supposedly speaking in tongues.
I also did (do) not see how the Church was edified by those actions.

Does this help, a bit, with understanding why one might come to the conclusion that some "tongue-speaking" today might not be from God?

Hi WW, you have a gift for asking the right questions

Try this in 1 Cor 2:

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:



5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.



6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:



8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us


by his Spirit:

for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so


the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.



12 Now we have received,


not the spirit of the world,



but the spirit which is of God;


that we might know the things that are


freely given to us of God.


13 Which things also we speak,

not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,



but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;


comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:

for they are foolishness unto him:



neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things,


yet he himself is judged of no man.


16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Praise God.



I hope that helps WW, it is all so important, and is the only explanation of the difficulty that I can see.

 

[convallaria]

I pray that Convallaria does not become discouraged, as a result of our words here.

I have now realized, that Convallaria intended this thread to be an encouragement for those who, like Timothy, have let their hearts sink and need to be uplifted or encouraged.

Now, we have seemingly turned this thread into a debate on whether some spiritual gifts are dead or not.

God: Help us. Soften the hearts of those who use strong words. Help us all to communicate with a kindness and gentleness which comes from your Spirit, Lord.

Thank you and God bless you!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Gifts plural as in gifts of the Spirit plural, not as you say here, the gift (singular) of salvation. You subtracted an "S" to make your doctrine look right.

No, as it is fact a singular word in the Greek. It is Strong's #5486, carisma (charisma), which is actually the word "grace," i.e., the divine grace of God for salvation. It is you who seem to need to add to words, letters, thoughts, doctrines, etc., in order for signs-and-wonders gifts to still be active. That verse does not support your view. I'm sorry.

 

[convallaria]

Pffft! This was never about comforting those who speak in tongues. They get their comfort from God. All believers understand that. This was about you attacking those who don't speak in tongues. Get real!

And your new wine-skin is the same make and model as the world's wine-skin. Your wine is vinegar.

(This teddy bear has teeth.)

Wow I would hate to have YOUR eyeballs!

 

[kaylagrl]

To comfort those who speak in tongues

2 Tim 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
This scripture is referring to many of the good things gifted by the Lord to His children. But one thing we know for sure is that to stir up the gift of God in us includes the gift of tongues.


Perhaps you received that gift a few years back but have not used it since? The word says we are to stir it up, not being fearful, but confident that what God accomplishes by His Spirit in us is far better than anything dreamed up by the schemes of the flesh of man.
Picture a vessel of new wine, in which the yeast has settled like a layer of clay in the bottom. If you stir up the wine including the yeast deposit you will soon see the bubbles gathering into a whoosh of foam, a surge of activity which multiplies into an active principal once more, no more settled back on its lees.


The deposit of God is a gift within us. Let us not disappoint Him by leaving His gift to settle motionless and inactive. The time is now to stir up that gift and pour forth the effervescence of new wine, which is of joy and of love and of power in the Holy Spirit.

If we are born again we have our new wineskins. Fill us up Lord so that we may pour forth, for Your glory, in Jesus’ Name, amen.

Agree with tongues,disagree you need to speak in tongues to be saved.

 

[kaylagrl]

The spiritual gifts are not in effect today. For we walk by faith and not by sight. The gift of eternal life yes but not the gifts of tongues, prophesies, etc. Dont be fooled. Satan will use what God isnt using to deceive many. Romans 3:24-26

So anyone who speaks in tongues are possessed by Satan,is that it?

 

[convallaria]

Agree with tongues,disagree you need to speak in tongues to be saved.

I never, ever, ever said that!
Please do your best to actually contribute to the OP in a positive spiritual manner.

 

[jb]

Three specific sign gifts are ended
For the cause of...Roger

Says you........!

 

[kaylagrl]

Three specific sign gifts are ended according to 1 Cor 13:8. The rest of the gifts continue in the body of believers.

The sign gifts will resume at the end of the age according to Joel 2. This is the latter rain of which Pentecost was the former rain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Knowledge has not ceased,[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]prophecies have not ceased.People take those verses out of context.Ive told a story here of a friend of the family that became a pastor.He heard a woman telling him how to get saved in his own language,he was Lebanese. She was speaking in tongues.He became saved that day and now has a church of around a thousand people in Canada.Did Satan speak to him? How is it possible she told him how to be saved in his own language when she didnt speak the language? [/FONT]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

There are numerous views of what the early church fathers thought of the tongues gift. You will see those who practice it today reference these second-century saints in order to justify their abuse of the gift. It is important you reality that their sources may or may not be entirely honest about the church-father writings, so as an alternative, I offer this. Be the judge for yourself, led by the Holy Spirit.

The Gift of Tongues: Comparing the Church Fathers with Contemporary Pentecostalism

Though the church fathers, who lived shortly after the apostles, said relatively little about the gift of tongues, what they did say furnishes a helpful comparison with what contemporary Pentecostalism says about the gift. They did not believe that every Christian received the gift, but they believed that the Holy
Spirit, not the human spirit, chose who would have the gift. They held that the gift’s ideal use was to benefit the entire community, not the speaker. For them, benefitting others enhanced the importance of interpretation so that others could be edified.

In contrast to early views of the gift, Pentecostal writers of the twentieth-century have given a high profile to the gift. In further contrast, modern writers have not limited the gift to messages in actual human languages as did early writers. They further differ with the early fathers in teaching that all Christians should have the gift as evidence of progress in their Christian lives. The Pentecostal view is that speaking in tongues can be a learned human behavior rather than a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit—a further difference from the early fathers. Relief from personal stress and self-edification of the tongues-speaker is the primary purpose of tongues in the eyes of Pentecostals, not the edification of others through interpretation of the tongues message as it was with the fathers. Contemporary Pentecostalism thus differs from ancient Christianity in fundamental aspects in its view of the gift of tongues.

The paper linked here shows that the collective writings of the church leaders in the second century overwhelmingly suggest that they associate tongues-speaking with a supernatural ability to speak rational, authentic foreign languages. That is evident particularly in the writings of Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Hegemonius, Gregory of Nazianzen, Ambrosiaster, Chrysostom, Augustine, and Leo the Great. It appears that Origen and Tertullian also agreed with this view.

The patristic writings further evidence that all Christians did not speak in tongues. Not only did none of the church fathers claim to speak in tongues personally, they consistently expressed their belief that not every Christian receives that gift (or any one gift, for that matter).

Clement of Alexandria explains that “each [believer] has his own proper gift of God—one in one way, another in another.” Hippolytus is even more explicit: “It is not necessary that every one of the faithful should cast out demons, raise the dead, or speak with tongues. But only such a one who has been graciously given this gift—for the purpose that it may be advantageous to the salvation of unbelievers.”

That pretty much negates the practice as it appears in today's churches, where, if you don't have the gift, they'll try to "teach it to you."

"Teach" a gift of the spirit? Really? I'm sorry, it just doesn't match up with Scripture.

 

[convallaria]

Says you........!

LOL! amen

 

[kaylagrl]

No, actually, we know for certain that by the time Paul wrote to Timothy, the signs-and-wonders gifts were dying out, because they were no longer necessary for the confirmation of the Gospel for which they were originally give.

• Paul had already warned the Corinthian church, years before this epistle, not to practice tongues in the exact same way today's "signs-and-wonders" churches practice them!
  
• Healing was disappearing, as Paul left Trophimus ill in Miletus rather than being able to heal him
• Prophecy, which was the word of God, was dying out because the word of God for the church was being written by the apostles

So you see, your declaration is in error, as these gifts were no long necessary by the end of the first century, and they serve no purpose today except the self-glorifcation of those who practice them, which is sin.

So speaking in tongues is a sin?! Please look at my last post and tell me how the person was bringing glory to herself by telling an unsaved man how to be saved. Tell me how that is a sin,thanks.

 

[kaylagrl]

I never, ever, ever said that!
Please do your best to actually contribute to the OP in a positive spiritual manner.

No you didnt say that,I thought you were one of the ones who posted in another thread discussing this.My bad,argements get confusing here.Then we agree.Thanks for the verbal spanking

 

[kaylagrl]

Well now, this brings a whole new perspective to the conversation. OH happy day -- I get to learn something new!

So then, I always thought "tongues" and "prophecy" gifts were not dead -- just not common.

Is it safe to assume that the gifts of manifestation are dead, while ministry gifts remain?

They are not dead,I can assure you.

 

[convallaria]

No you didnt say that,I thought you were one of the ones who posted in another thread discussing this.My bad,argements get confusing here.Then we agree.Thanks for the verbal spanking

hehehe you are very welcome! God bless u and thank you for your spirited response

 

[kaylagrl]

Believe what you want... But speaking in tongues today is a work of the flesh.

That is you opinion.You are judging those that speak in tongues and I, for one,do not appreciate it.

 

[jb]

Speaking in tongues is not a sin, just pointless...

More complete NONSENSE!

It's quite obvious you don't have a clue what you're talking about, so I suggest you have a look at This study to correct your ignorance on this most beautiful gift from Our Heavenly Father which cost Christ so much to purchase (A gift that Paul most highly esteemed, 1Cor 14v18)! Matt 7v7-11, Luke 11v9-13, Acts 2v23-33, Rom 10v7, 1Cor 14v2, Eph 4v7-16, Jude v20,21.

You can find a longer study Here on the gifts of the Spirit (as listed in 1Cor 12v7-11), the gift of tongues is number 8 in the list.

Yahweh Shalom

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I understand this view, PB, but I must ask if you are aware that in the phrase "when the perfect comes," the word teleioß (teleios) is used for the word "perfect"? It is the same word in Jesus' declaration from the cross "It is finished!" It is a uniquely Greek construct of a sentence in that the word "perfect" is an adjective that has no noun present to modify, but is used as though to define a neuter noun, not masculine as all references to Jesus are in the New Testament.

It is the word also used for "complete" in the New Testament. Jesus is not a "the" or an "it" so this phrase can't have to do with Jesus. As verse nine before it refers to knowing (knowledge) and prophecy, we must see this phrase as an explanation of why they will be done away with.

Yes VW - I am well aware of the word here - perfect as being the Greek word teleois and teleois is a adjective which stems from the root - telos - being a neuter noun. teleois - 1) brought to its end, finished; 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness, 3) perfect; 4) that which is perfect A. consummate human integrity and virtue; B. of men - full grown, adult, of full age, mature. The word used for "finished" in John is teleo which is the verb form of telos - teleo means to bring to a close, to finish, to end, A. passed, finished; 2) to perform, execute, complete, fulfil (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command, etc.) A. special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command, B. in reference also to the form, to do just as commanded and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, to fulfil - Jesus had "finished", i.e. completed, accomplished, fulfilled all that the Father had sent him to do . . . But that is actually beside the point . . . Since the word perfect - teleois used here as an adjective, my next question would be - WHY can't the terminology here be an adjective describing Christ?

Something better and more permanent is coming, as "the partial will be done away with." meroß (meros) is translated "partial" and means a portion of, or in measure of, or to a degree being part of a whole. There is no way that can describe Jesus. He is not just a portion of something, He is everything.

Yes, something better and more permanent is coming - We only prophesy in part because we only know in part (v12) we don't "see" or know everything clearly now (even with scripture, or else there would be more agreement between brothers and sisters in Christ ) . . . . but when Christ returns - I will no longer know in part but I will know even as I am known. I will have no need of prophecy, (word of) knowledge nor tongues!

This has to refer to the written word, in its completeness. There is nothing else it can be. The first letter to Corinth was written in about 62 AD. In 96AD, with the Revelation of John, the complete written word would exist. By then, Paul is saying -- though obviously he didn't know who or when that involved, just that it was coming -- the signs-and-wonders gifts would cease because they would no longer be necessary.

And I reiterate that this opinion does not negate the absolute power of the Holy Spirit. He can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. But as whole, He no longer needs to empower these gifts because we have the revelation of God through the recorded works of the Bible. A miraculous understanding between foreigners, the implanting of the truth in the heart of the unbeliever, even the miraculous healing are within His power.

No doubt He has done them in the 1900+ years since John finished the written Word, but only very, very rarely, and not when believers communicate. There is no need. They have understanding, they have knowledge, they have the Holy Spirit. They don't need anything else.

IF, and that is a BIG IF . . . this little section here - "but then face to face now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" was excluded I may (BIG MAY) could see it to mean scripture . . . face - prosopon - translated face (55x); person (7x) presence (7x) countenance (3x) . . . NOT "page to page" but "face to face" . . . sorta seals it for me.

But at least we have had a civil conversation VW . .. It's the kind of discussion that I like to have even though there is no agreement . . .

Thanks brother . . . God bless you tremendously, PB

 

[Cee]

Perfect is referring to love.

1 Co 12, 13, 14 the entire 3 chapters are talking about doing everything out of love.

Which is why he says a verse or 2 later, the greatest of these is love. And only love never fails.

Reading anything else out of "perfect" especially to use this ONE Scripture to do away with gifts of Holy Spirit is really difficult.

It goes against so many rules of proper exegesis.

C.

Yes VW - I am well aware of the word here - perfect as being the Greek word teleois and teleois is a adjective which stems from the root - telos - being a neuter noun. teleois - 1) brought to its end, finished; 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness, 3) perfect; 4) that which is perfect A. consummate human integrity and virtue; B. of men - full grown, adult, of full age, mature. The word used for "finished" in John is teleo which is the verb form of telos - teleo means to bring to a close, to finish, to end, A. passed, finished; 2) to perform, execute, complete, fulfil (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command, etc.) A. special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command, B. in reference also to the form, to do just as commanded and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, to fulfil - Jesus had "finished", i.e. completed, accomplished, fulfilled all that the Father had sent him to do . . . But that is actually beside the point . . . Since the word perfect - teleois used here as an adjective, my next question would be - WHY can't the terminology here be an adjective describing Christ?

Yes, something better and more permanent is coming - We only prophesy in part because we only know in part (v12) we don't "see" or know everything clearly now (even with scripture, or else there would be more agreement between brothers and sisters in Christ ) . . . . but when Christ returns - I will no longer know in part but I will know even as I am known. I will have no need of prophecy, (word of) knowledge nor tongues!

IF, and that is a BIG IF . . . this little section here - "but then face to face now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" was excluded I may (BIG MAY) could see it to mean scripture . . . face - prosopon - translated face (55x); person (7x) presence (7x) countenance (3x) . . . NOT "page to page" but "face to face" . . . sorta seals it for me.

But at least we have had a civil conversation VW . .. It's the kind of discussion that I like to have even though there is no agreement . . .

Thanks brother . . . God bless you tremendously, PB